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-   -   BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions V (https://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/446356-ba-strike-your-thoughts-questions-v.html)

Dawdler 25th Mar 2011 17:04

How are the membership of BASSA (assuming they wish to) going to go about changing their representatives? Haven't BASSA cleared the way for not having any more elections until this dispute is over? All DH has to do is remain "in dispute" with BA ad infinitum, to keep his seat.

Litebulbs 25th Mar 2011 17:31

No doubt we will see how the land lies after the ballot and look at numbers rather than percentages.

LD12986 25th Mar 2011 18:46

I don't think there is any chance of BA now agreeing to the integration of EF/WW fleets with Mixed Fleet. The new fleet has been up and running for months and the differences in structure and working practices are too radical. Mixed Fleet has no seniority, one CSM with "Future Talent" crew acting as Pursers, Mixed Fleet cannot choose their working positions by seniority. And so the list goes on.

Add the inherent lack of trust of BASSA by BA and that BASSA has already expended its main weapon of industrial action to little effect. BA holds almost all the cards.

There's no doubt that not having the foresight to ensure there was no separate fleet at LHR has been one of the biggest failings of BASSA. How many of the reps thought that stonewalling the company would leave them filed under "too difficult"? Whilst I don't think the scaremongering about crew being starved of work will come true, BASSA's ability to resist productivity improvements and greater flexibility is going to be hugely diminished over time. BA will seek the productivity improvements (Fixed Links at LHR) and working practice changes to improve customer service over time.

Even if BASSA obtained bargaining rights for Mixed Fleet, the lack of seniority and relatively transient nature of the workforce and low wages means Mixed Fleet unlikely to be so willing to pay their monthly subscriptions and be so loyal to BASSA as EF/WW crew.

pcat160 25th Mar 2011 18:55

Why is there this perception that in order for BA to move forward in improving the product in the area of cabin service some accommodation must be reached with Bassa. Has there not been an agreement in place for the last 15 plus years while at the same time service levels have decreased. The idea that CC service levels have decreased over this period is a perspective I have gained from this and other forums. My flights on BA have been over the last 10 years during which time I have noticed little difference although I more often travel in F now. I would suggest that the way to improve CC service levels is to accelerate the development of Mixed Fleet. In MF there is a structure where managers can manage and outstanding service can be rewarded with performance bonuses. I think it unrealistic to think work habits and attitudes will change just because there is an agreement in place. To reiterate my previous post I do not think this dispute will be settled anytime soon. Current Bassa hierarchy have a disincentive to settle the dispute while BA can get on with business. I understand this dispute is costing BA substantial sums, but I do not see an alternative for BA other than executing their business plan. That business plan for CC is a transition to Mixed Fleet.

Litebulbs 25th Mar 2011 19:11

There is a financial reason to settle. The dispute is costing money. Without going down the SOSR route, natural wastage will take a long time to remove the legacy cost. BA will be paying a hell of a lot of basic money for current employees to sit at home whilst the MF crew take on more work.

I imagine it would take a change in redundancy laws to sweep out the cost; lucky we haven't got a Government that is looking at employment law legislation................

Bugger, we have!

hautemude 25th Mar 2011 20:02

Litebulbs - Post 85
Although I enjoy many of you devil's advocate postings, you really are becoming less & less translucent.

MPN11 25th Mar 2011 20:36

Makes some sense to me ....

Existing WW crews are going to be a fiscal drain on BA for years to come, until natural wastage takes effect.

Not sure why they're all going to be sat at home in the interim though, unless they all throw a sickie :)

Elaborate, please, Litebulbs.

Betty girl 25th Mar 2011 23:56

B F has always said it will take at least 10 years for Mixed Fleet to reach 40 % of the total cabin crew workforce. He is still saying this and he frequently pops into training courses such as 'In Touch' and Leaderships courses held for Pursers and CSDs and he draws on flip charts to show why this is the case.

It is only Bassa that says otherwise in an attempt to scare crew.

Mixed Fleet is due to grow fast at first to 1400 approx by next February ( by BA offering part-time to current WW and E/F crew and by route expansion) and thereafter it will grow as people on WW and E/F naturally leave or retire. Routes will only transfer to Mixed Fleet as the current fleets shrinks and this is to be done in a fair manner.

We have had situations in the past when Bassa has tried to scare crew but BA has always been true to their word and that is why I personally choose to believe BA and not Bassa. It is in BA's interest to have happy crew on all it's fleets and I truly believe that once all this has finally been sorted out, that's what we will end up with.

I notice that a lot of people post on here as if they have inside information and post as if they are speaking on behalf of BA. BA have been very clear on what will be happening in the future and they are committed to ALL our fleets.

These are my own views and I do not speak on behalf of BA.

Litebulbs 26th Mar 2011 00:09

Originally Posted by MPN11 (Post 6330936)
Makes some sense to me ....

Existing WW crews are going to be a fiscal drain on BA for years to come, until natural wastage takes effect.

Not sure why they're all going to be sat at home in the interim though, unless they all throw a sickie :)

Elaborate, please, Litebulbs.

MF grows training course by training course as the fleet grows. An amount of legacy crew will leave or retire. Now does the growth match the departure? Will BA only recruit to fill the gap?

What happens when there are more crew than crewable flights?

Litebulbs 26th Mar 2011 00:11

Originally Posted by hautemude (Post 6330881)
Although I enjoy many of you devil's advocate postings, you really are becoming less & less translucent.

Why is a position that is not compliant to the thread bias, devils advocate?

Betty girl 26th Mar 2011 00:29


It does not make financial sense to over recruit M/F crew and have any crew sitting at home whatever contract they are on.

BA have also made a commitment NOT to do this and are able to time training courses for new starters to coincide with crew leaving. BA have the ability to offer rest day working on all fleets including M/F and temporary part-time increases or decreases on WW and E/F in periods when they are under crewed or over crewed and they already currently use these methods to adjust crewing levels rather than taking on too many new entrants as you suggest.

It really is just a Bassa scare tactic to suggest WW or E/F will sit at home on their supposedly huge!! salaries and do nothing. It just would not make financial sense particularly as the offer includes guaranteed variable pay also on top of our salaries!! The whole point of all these changes is to make crew MORE productive not less, so leaving us sitting at home really does make NO sense at all!!

pcat160 26th Mar 2011 00:56

If 2000 +or- CC decided to strike during an unprotected IA Mixed Fleet might get a jump start!

Litebulbs 26th Mar 2011 00:59

I wasn't trying to scare, I was trying to make a point about a negotiating position. If you forget the top table at Bassa, which is a whole other discussion, then my point was about the viability of a negotiated and integrated fleet across all agreements.

Litebulbs 26th Mar 2011 01:00

Originally Posted by pcat160 (Post 6331276)
If 2000 +or- CC decided to strike during an unprotected IA Mixed Fleet might get a jump start!

Un/protected will be matter for the courts.

pcat160 26th Mar 2011 02:59

"Un/protected will be matter for the courts." Of course!

ChicoG 26th Mar 2011 06:14

Un/protected will be matter for the courts.
Although probably not for very long.


VintageKrug 26th Mar 2011 07:06

Originally Posted by Litebulbs
Un/protected will be matter for the courts.

It may end up in court, but of course if Unite itself believes any of BASSA's 10 reasons for strike could expose them or their membership, then they have the right not to authorise a strike called by BASSA's end-of-the-line leadership, and if they do authorise such an action, then they have a moral obligation to inform crew of the very real risks.

The clue that one of these reasons might be be related to previous action can be seen in bullet point 2, and the phrase "related to the previous dispute" which BASSA has cleverly spelled out for all to see....

It's also important BASSA members are aware of the basis on which the courts will assess the case; in doing so they can judge for themselves whether it's worth the risk of being fired:

Taking part in industrial action : Directgov - Employment

Originally Posted by HM Government

If you continue to take part in protected industrial action for more than 12 weeks your rights are different. If you are dismissed for taking part after the end of the 12 weeks your dismissal will only be unfair if, at the time of your dismissal, your employer has not followed reasonable steps to settle the dispute with the trade union.

Dismissal and unprotected industrial action

Official industrial action organised by a trade union is 'unprotected' if:
  1. the trade union has failed to hold a postal ballot in-line with the law
  2. the trade union has not told the employer, in-line with the law, about the industrial action ahead of a ballot or ahead of the industrial action
  3. it has been disowned by the trade union (eg because someone without authority called for the action, or because the trade union considers the dispute to be resolved), sometimes called 'repudiated action'
  4. it is secondary industrial action (in support of workers of another employer), sometimes called 'sympathy action'
  5. it promotes ‘union labour only’ practices (also known as a ‘closed shop’)
  6. it is in support of any workers who have been dismissed for taking unofficial action
  7. other aspects of industrial action law have been breached by the trade union

If you are dismissed while taking part in unprotected industrial action called for by your trade union, you cannot normally claim unfair dismissal if all the other employees taking part are dismissed as well.

You can complain about unfair dismissal if you are dismissed:
  • for an automatically unfair reason (eg because of your duties as a health and safety representative)
  • while taking part in the industrial action but others taking part are not dismissed
  • for taking part in unprotected industrial action, after you stopped taking part

Just because you can make a claim for unfair dismissal does not mean it will be successful.

Of more interest than the above to Unite will be the potential for BASSA's strike to be counted as incitement for someone to breach their contract.

That is serious stuff, because if any TU officer (and that would include Branch Sec, for instance) induces someone to breach their contract outside a protected dispute, the employer can take that TU officer, and the TU, to court.

It is not clear to me whether this allows for recovery of all and any costs and losses arising from the breach, or is capped at £250,000.

That could create a significant personal liability for some.

More info here:


Having said all that, I personally believe that BASSA is a busted flush, its actions are now irrelevant to BA as they don't affect the Operation, and BASSA isn't motivated to compromise or settle this dispute, which is effectively lost.

So it's very much a case of "Keep Calm and Carry On" whatever the result of BASSA's latest April Fool's Day Ballot.

Betty girl 26th Mar 2011 09:09

Hi Litebulbs,

Good, as it would have been, to have Mixed Fleet integrated into WW and E/F, I am afraid that, that boat has well and truly sailed.

There was a small chance, right at the start, that Bassa might have been able to negotiate this by making some changes to our agreements and by making us more cost effective but that opportunity was lost a long time ago.

Now that Mixed Fleet is up and running, the savings of that fleet, are large and BA have seen the Golden goose's eggs!! Reintegrating them, with their very different structure, would now I feel be impossible and I cannot see BA being interested in doing this as the terms and conditions are so low that, BA will now have the large turnover of cheap crew that they seem to want on Mixed Fleet, so why would they want to change that ? !!.

Nice thought though and what many of us wanted Bassa to negotiate at the start but I am afraid it is now just a dream and what they should be now doing is working with the company to make these changes work in a way that protects us WW, SFG and E/F crew and also helps Mixed Fleet. We do need to somehow improve their agreements which are not good at all and I really do feel for them because some ARE very tired, underpaid and finding their rostering hard at times but of course I do know that as well as this, many are loving working for BA which is great for them.

These are my own personal views and not those of BA

kappa 28th Mar 2011 01:49

I read this posted on another BB

BASSA > Latest News

Mar 27th, 2011 by admin

Tomorrow is your day.

On Monday, 28th of March 2011, the results of the fifth ballot of British Airways cabin crew will be made known.

Whatever the outcome or the result, we are proud of you and proud to represent you.

Every single one of you should also be proud of yourselves, for the unwavering support that you have given, not only to your union but also to each other.

Other groups can only dream of having this solidarity and camaraderie. No other dispute in history has had so many ballots over so long a period of time; such ongoing support is unprecedented. Indeed it is this very determination that in the end will secure you the settlement you so deserve.

The nay-sayers have predicted the end of BASSA at every turn, yet here we are still together and still strong. They may have tried their damndest to destroy us, but to that end they have failed - and that is completely down to you and the support that you have given to us.

Far from thousands leaving Unite, the reality is far more encouraging. Our very first ballot was to around 12000 people, our last one went to around 10000. In the interim, 1,800 cabin crew have left British Airways employment, so obviously can no longer be members. To put this into some kind of context, the BA backed PCCC have had to disclose in a legal document submitted for Mark Everard’s tribunal case, that they have less than two hundred members. Considering that it’s free to join, most people appear to have already worked out that you get what you pay for.

You were so right to keep the faith.

It’s easy for other groups to scoff, but you know what, it takes true courage to put your money where your mouth is, to actually get off your backside and do something, rather than just talking about it.

When push comes to shove, you either have to stand for something in this life or you end up standing for nothing. It is always far easier to talk than to do, and you have proven over and over again that when it comes to doing, cabin crew are not afraid.

Whatever the outcome tomorrow, we are grateful to you from the bottom of our hearts for the support you have given us thus far; cabin crew have proven to everybody that they have not only the heart but also the wisdom to know when there is no other option but to fight for what is right.


“Believe in yourself

And all that you are.

Know that there is something inside you

That is greater than any obstacle”

Christian D Larson.

JUAN TRIPP 28th Mar 2011 07:09

Apparently many crew on another forum think this is the best message of the whole dispute! Just another of DH's fairy tales - not a fact in sight.

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