When I was a boy he was called Attlee or Clement Attlee - never Atlee.
Clement Attlee appeared to us after the 1950 election as a tired and exhausted man - and that was the most important factor in the 1951 elections._ The Labour government had run out of steam and the alternative was the Conservatives.
I have no connections with airlines except as passenger._ This is why I read this thread becaue I expect that those airline people who know what they are talking about can answer the questions of PAX like me.

Never underestimate the power of apathy. Most crew are just not "engaged" in this dispute. Many cannot even be bothered to vote in the ballots on IA. Taking a positive act like leaving the union is just too much hassle for many crew. This is a modern British malaise - how many could not be bothered to vote at the last general election? Yes they will pick up their mobiles and vote for the X-Factor, but to get involved in stuff that actually affects them is beyond the interest level of many in society.

This is untrue and incorrect.

BASSA have already reneged by not assisting non-striking crew who have needed representation in, for example, attendance meetings, etc. The reps are "too busy" to assist. BASSA are, it appears, only now supporting those who went on strike. There is no benefit whatsoever for non-striking crew still remaining in BASSA, they are wasting their money and are now simply funding this dispute. The sooner the finances are cut from BASSA, the better for all of us.

By contrast the PCCC are willing and able, to attend meetings with colleagues, and will do so in our own time, if necessary. Any colleague can attend with another, so BA could not refuse. Additionally, we can now refer crew who have suffered an accident or injury at work to a solicitors for free legal assistance. We have our first case ongoing so we are assisting materially.:ok:

We are doing everything we can, in our own time, and at our own expense, to assist our fellow colleagues in finding a better way forward out of this cesspit that BASSA have plunged us all into, so it is frustrating to see sweeping generalisations such as:

The law states that when we have 40% of the membership, we can apply to BA for recognition. It is only when people leave BASSA, and cut off the funding to this utterly ineffectual organisation and join the PCCC that we will be able to move forward. Everything has to start somewhere, this is the beginning for the PCCC and like most organisations, we will grow as people realise the benefits.

Knocking those of us that are trying to do something about this dire situation serves no purpose in this dispute. The statement about apathy is more correct. Thank goodness we are not all apathetic to what is happening.:)

I am BA cabin crew and this is my own view and not that of BA.

Actually the GMB do have a recognition agreement with BA for cabin crew. However it has not been implemented for many, many years there used to be an Air Hostesses Association which was a branch of the GMB and had a seat at the ACC NSP.

Whether they would want to enter the boiler room at the moment is, of course, understandable. I can see a new force emerging at some point in the future be it GMB or PCCC as cabin crew will still need reprentation.

BASSA is a spent force and totally discredited it only needs a little more time for this to sink in.

I think the engagement is there, however it is one sided and it is only with BASSA who they see as God. BASSA can do no wrong, why would they, they are crew themselves and why wouldn't they care about fellow crew or have their interests at heart as it affects them all.

I've been away all week and on observation, you need just one rotten egg to spoil the rest in the basket. One miserable militant who will rile things and try to influence others.
Crew are scared, too scared still, to say that they came to work so what hope is there that they'll stand up against the BASSA leadership, we've all seen what happens to those who dare. They are bullied, harassed and being on a nightstop on your own can be lonely for the younger crew if not included.
Some crew who came to work even, CSDs and Pursers don't have the guts to say they came to work, they all want to have a quiet life which is sad. As I myself and many others have said said, it is a cult and they cult will be stay strong until either BASSA is broken or the militants leave the company.

The non-cult bassa members
 

In response to the question about why the other bassa members - the ones who are not a part of the cult, appear to do nothing, posters need to "think themselves into" the position of those non-cult members.

Firstly, CC jobs are not like other jobs. There is no 9 - 5, and the cameraderie, such as it is at present, is different. It's not the same workgroup every week. Each "job" involves a different workgroup. Compare it to lots of very short term projects, with different project leaders, not many of whom appear to support the company.
Also, the "managers", (other than the Heritage CSDs, who appear to be a very mixed bag of folk from the very good to the other end of that spectrum), are invisible to many crew.
So, you turn up, you do your job, you may or may not socialise if away from home.
What's there to bind you together? Well, as with many employers, moaning about the boss/employer is a good start. Having fun with colleagues is another. "Belonging" to the TU (was) a more or less mandatory part of belonging. So even if you have no intention whatsoever of striking, you are unlikely to resign from the TU.

Many people use their jobs to give "meaning" to a part of their life. If for 40 years that "meaning" has meant being in the TU, then you don't change it just due to this little dispute.
Also, as others have said - many folk still belong to TUs due to the notion of "Insurance" or "Just in Case".

As any half decent academic* will tell you, NO TU can live up to the "Insurance" promise. They are simply not resourced enough. Even Balpa, which is the most expensive TU, cannot resource all the claims on its time. Unite stands no chance of ever resourcing all the potential claims on its time. However, they neglect to tell you that when you join, and once you are in, they do not tell you that.

*"Half-decent academic" does not include the twits from places such as Middlesex Poly who wrote in to newspapers to bemoan BAs approach to ER. Other than the usual list of Trots and TU sponsored Pinkoes, the others were remarkably dumb to add their name to a letter without getting some information first. And the UK allows these dimwits to educate our children???

AO
 

Some interesting points which I generally disagree with, but that will be of no shock to you.

I would suggest that the insurance policy, however poor, would be better than none. In my company we have union and non unionised groups. Which do you think have the greater influence?

Still, if you like to include terms like trots and pinko's in your point, then I doubt if you would reach out to the non engaged. Still, I am sure it serves a purpose somewhere.

Exactly Litebulbs.....Too many think that using silly language of that sort gives them some kudos with others of the 'Flog em' brigade.
I think too many years trying to justify the doing down of various workforces may have taken it's toll.....:)
Many people stay members for many reasons. Most of them because they are happy with the local representation they get. I think too many on here are using BASSA ignorantly to justify general gripes about the TU movement borne of their political incline.;)

Trying to be fair and moderate, I think the general readership are not trying "to justify general gripes about the TU movement borne of their political incline."

I think many people are actually really very tired of having their lives severely disrupted by Trades Unions. The ability to take IA may well be a part of the 'power of the Union', but the reality is that millions of people are adversely affected by it [wherein, of course, lies the power].

Whether it's Post, Refuse, Rail, Underground, Cabin Crew, Miners, Firemen or any other sector of the major 'service industries' ... the rest of the population gets a bit pi55ed off having their lives massively disrupted. There is anger out there. Not necessarily because the strikers or disrupters may not have a good cause [or not] ... just simply that the rest of society is getting a bit tired of small groups messing their lives about.

Despite being a Right-winger, I can accept there are good causes where the Union should rightly [ooops, did i say that?] take some form of action. However, any expectation of Public sympathy should be carefully considered. Sadly, that hasn't been the case. The Public [i.e. some poor innocent victim like me] is expected to accept a battle between Management and Union ... with the Public as the victim, and management as the Villain, and the Union as the Hero in the White Hat. Guess what? I don't want to be a pawn in the power-struggle about who runs the Company, or whether a 15 minute tea-break is acceptable.

@ call100 ... That's why people are pi55ed off, and it has nothing whatever to do with political inclinations.

From the CC thread
 

Bloomberg are reporting that Unite are going to the Court of Appeal Oct 11,12.

British Airways Union to Appeal 2009 Cabin-Crew Contract Ruling Next Month - Bloomberg

Doesn't the Unite action mean that everything relating to the IA is on Hold until the appeals court rules?

Seems to me this is another step for TW to draw out the drama at the expense of BASSA and DH.



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I was referring to those who use McCarthy type language when discussing the subject of TU's and IA..
TU members are often not considered members of the Public when it comes to discussions about the way IA affects.:confused:
I don't disagree that people get racked off with it all. Society has grown a very me, me, me outlook and people rarely, if ever, consider what the IA is about.
I have been in the position where strike action was voted for. The meeting to discuss the timing of the action took two days. Whatever we did was going to affect someone. We didn't want to strike in the school holidays (even though this had most impact) as many hard working families would be affected on their main holidays.
Business flyers would be affected if we had any prolonged strikes.
Struggling airlines may be tipped over the edge. Etc. Etc.
Whatever the decision, someone somewhere was going to feel as you do. We eventually came up with a strategy that impacted on the employer more than the travelling public. However, it would have still upset some people. Luckily we negotiated a settlement before we had to test it (Much the preferred option).
Using IA irresponsibly is a big problem, but, irresponsibility is subjective and the people involved in the decision are often as blinkered to the effects on others as others are to the reasons for the IA.
Most disputes are resolved amicably, the nature of the beast means that no one reports any of these. It's not enough to get Daily Mail readers wound up any more than they already are.;)
I don't agree with the methods used in the BASSA dispute and I don't agree with fighting your dispute in the press or on forums like this. Unfortunately 'Society' has moved in that direction and people are emboldened by the anonymity of media like this.
As for IA in general. I believe that it must always remain a possibility otherwise there would be not negotiation of anything. The notion that all employers are reasonable, altruistic entities is far far from reality.
But it has been proven that the successful companies are those that work hand in hand with their workforce to reach amicable and beneficial (to both sides) agreements.
Sorry this went on longer than I intended......:)

This seems self evident, it is also misleading. It implies a responsibility on the company while letting the workforce off the same responsibility. Both company and union have to be reasonable for this to hold true. In this case it is quite clear that the union local branch has not behaved reasonably. BA may not be angels in this, but BASSA and it's officials have behaved appallingly over the progress of this dispute. This is where a lot of anger comes from.

What is "society" when IA is considered?
 

I wonder what "society" is when IA is being considered? - (If it is considered at all, and I'm not convinced that the bassa cult care about society at all).

If only 16% of the private sector, and less than 60% of the public sector are in TUs, (and some of them are mandatory, such as BMA), then the majority of society are not in TUs.
What, then, is "society" to those contemplating engaging in IA?? I have no idea. In the past, when I was in a 100% pre and post entry closed shop, I might have known, but now??

Litebulbs
- on the inability of TUs to deliver the insurance, that was not my opinion, but the opinion of a bunch of Unite and GMB National officials at a dinner at last year's TUC.
On the trots and pinkos - it's a quote from Private Eye. Have you read some of Huw Benyon's stuff?? Not exactly "academic".

It implies nothing of the sort. If the two are working together for the good of both company and workforce obviously they have equal responsibility. Nothing else was implied. Nothing I said lets the workforce or the off anything.
I do not disagree with your summing up of the BA dispute. I would guess that BASSA had a lot of support in the beginning, but, lost it mainly down to the way they have conducted themselves.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to take people like Holley, Everard et al and refer to them as "workforce". This is what the dispute has always been about.

If you consider them hard workers, start considering for whom you think they are working hard.

I have to add: When he was posing as "Richard" and spouting all the crap about how hard BA were being on the crew - the word "macho" springs to mind - my immediate thought was "what an obnoxious, lying :mad: ". In retrospect, I haven't changed my opinion. And I don't think much of Victoria Derbyshire for not doing any homework and letting him preach such nonsense either.

But I suppose it is, after all, the BBC, who are mostly a waste of money these days anyway.

As usual you are mixing up the BASSA/BA dispute with the general point!

This isn't a general thread though. It's a very specific one.

On the wider point, If BASSA and other unions continue on the path they seem intent on then they may be making more anti union law inevitable. If we see mass disruption over the next 12 months we'll either see legislation in this parliament or if the Lib Dems baulk Cameron will call a snap election and no doubt win convincingly on an anti union platform.

I don't think we need better legislation just better unions. Theres too much representation of their political ends and not enough of their members.

An extremely pertinent point, but one that may not jump out to the average BASSA diehard if they decide to start quoting this article from the current Newsweek:

How Our Quest for Bargains Could Hurt the Economy

The main problem is greed. Shown at times by both sides but of late mainly by employers. The difficulty is, trying to sift out those employers jumping on the bandwagon and cutting for cuttings sake and those in trouble.
Many workforces are now being shafted because they have helped the company out with pay freezes and cuts to Terms and conditions. Some companies saw it as sign of weakness rather than strength and have come in with further cuts despite making more profit than forecast and paying CEO's record salaries.
It's no wonder some people are saying enough is enough.

Hotel Mode Stop referring to Union(s) then and stick with BASSA...
Agreed to a point. I think many Unions have excellent local representation and that is where most agreements are made.....As for the higher echelon....No argument.

The Guardian 19 September 2010
 

All quotations from 19 September 2010 The Guardian