As far as I know VS don't provide a car from the terminal to the aircraft for all their UC passengers do they?

Looks like there will be a lot of whistling going on , £500 per pax on a limo :ugh:

A couple of hundred K for dedicated busses wouldn't even come close to covering all the flights BA serve from LHR let alone the rest of the network.

£200k for a dedicated security channel, at which airports? That again wouldn't even touch the sides on the way down.

If VS are paying £500 per pax on transport to the aircraft then I am amazed that they're making a profit - are they making money though, who knows....

The BAA provide security. Not BA.

I agree, go whistle.

I think WW is trying to do that.

Fargoo and L337

Let me see if I can help you:
VS Limo home to airport £125
Airport to Hotel to airport £125
Hotel to airport £125
Airport to Hotel £125

They don't need to. Unlike BA, they bring the aircraft to the gate.

Re the busses, yes I think it would...again, it's only needed at Heathrow. Everywhere else manages to bring the aircraft to the gate.
Re the security, I am suggesting a similar operation to VS where the service is at check-in T3 and it is paid for by VS. The equipment is there already so it is staff costs per annum.

As neither of you seem to have flown with VS, you can check all these services on Virgin's website.

If he's paid £9k for a flight which you can get for £750 down the back he should be taken to the plane on a sedan chair carried by the four 747 captains who are highest on the BA seniority list. If that's what floats his boat :)

At T5 we have some remote stands, but the vast majority of arrivals and departures are onto a pier.

Capot : Thank you for posting that information. It is of course a common misconception that agoraphobia is fear of open spaces. That does not apply to me, nor does fear of confined spaces, it is only fear of being surrounded by large numbers of people. I find it difficult to walk into a crowded room, even if it´s full of people I know (mind you with some of the people I know ....!)

And as a matter of interest, it is often mis-spelt as agraphobia, which is a fear of sexual molestation

L337 I'm sure they are but the times that they AREN'T are the times it's noticed - that's the business.

I arrived at T5 last August from JNB, so we were on 27L and able to roll off directly into the T5 area. As with all JNB flights, we arrived in the 06:00 /0 07:00 hour and the place was quiet. We had to be bussed.

Yes, I realise that the a/c might not be turning immediately and so they parked on a remote where it could wait until later in the day. In that case, park at a proper gate and then tow the machine back to the remote gate. Cost money? Oohhh shocking. For the record, the flight was great. Boarded on time (through some old fangled device called a jet-way that they still use in South Africa) and the cabin service was very good indeed. I was in WT+ and fed up with having to go through the old bussing routine after a 10.5hr flight.

Incidentally, the only reason I travelled on BA? I had enough FFMs to spare. Such a pity to see a good company sliding down but, as I have said before, ALL old companies do this and it is inevitable and unstoppable. Ask Woollies and General Motors and all the rest.

Simple and effective, no idea why it isn't done :ugh:

Not sure I understand , you were talking about seperate transport from aircraft to terminal yet your costings are based on a limo from your home direct to the airport and then to a hotel and back again.

I assume also you haven't travelled much, there are lots of airports and carriers that still bus from remote stands other than Heathrow and BA.

I think the points you made in your first post on this thread were extremely valid though. If you ever start an airline with a limo service as above for all your prem pax then count me in as a customer :ok:

No, it's not simple and it certainly wouldn't be effective.

You've got a whole wave of Longhaul Flights arriving into T5 from around 0500 onwards. They've got to be unloaded, turned around ( cleaning/catering/engineering, etc) and then loaded for the next departure, the whole process taking the best part of a couple of hours... and that's with the aircraft remaining static. If you insisted on also towing off of and back onto "proper" gates you'd add at least another hour to the process, and you have the extra costs of tugs and towing crews and in addition the extra ground congestion caused by dragging a fleet of 744s and 777's around Heathrow.

I know that off Pier stands can be a right PITA. I really don't enjoy apologising for the umpteenth time when there are no busses especially when we've spent all night trying, and succeding, in engineering an on-time arrival ....I would also agree with the premise that our Premium passengers are entitled ( as in "paid for") to expeditious passage to T5A. Then again, to be fair to BA, there are plenty of other airlines and airports that also use off pier stands....and I've never ever heard anyone complain about the off pier stands used by BA and Virgin in the Carribean - must be something to do with the weather .

You really are stretching a point. I think you need to compare like with like. Of course it's expected that downline there are going to be times when the facilities are not available but T5 is the home of BA. It is supposed to be a flagship terminal for a flagship airline.



Well, give Virgin a call then.

Unfortunately Virgin don't yet offer that service for all of their premium passengers. Maybe one day....

strake
 

Fair point, my not so subtle attempt at humour failed. Rest of the post stands, including my comment about the transport of Premium passengers. There will be less "bussing" once T5C opens - but it won't end completely.

(Oh, the other PITA is the fact that some of the existing stands on T5B are off-pier...go figure)

Well, now I am confused. As far as I know (having flown with VS for the last 6 years) all full-fare UC passengers receive this service.

Expectation
 

I don't think it matters whether you fly F,J,C,W or Y: what matters is the expectation of service the airline, it is irrelevant what they call themselves, generates by their advertising ( mere puff excluded) and more particularly these days their website.

If West London Airways promise you " an experience" in C or F you have every right to expect them to deliver: if South London Airways adds some value to their product e.g. limo service you may elect to use your hard earned cash to pay for their product over the former.

If you pay £2 for North London Airways loco flight and add £X for speedy boarding you have the expectation that you will get what you pay for.

The problem all airlines have is delivering that promise or expectation because so much of the ground side is contracted out.

The ground handling side is, like the aircraft you fly on, provided by the lowest bidder.

Only going on what i've seen when i've been to book with them, only the most expensive tickets in UC get the limo service. If you but the cheaper (but still full fare) UC tickets ie non-flexible then the service is not offered.

A moot point I guess but still they don't offer it to everyone.

From the horses mouth so to speak :)

Having said that, just checked out the LHR-MIA route and even the cheapest £4000 UC ticket had the ground transfer included.

Anyone know if AA, United or the others offer this or is it just Virgin?

Routing LHR/RUH/LHR

Outbound 20 March, inbound 28 March

BA fully flexible business class = £3,910.50

bmi fully flexible, with chauffeur drive included = £3,192.90

I've used both.

The BA NCW seat is better, but I slept easily on the bmi seat too.

Is NCW worth £700 more (plus the car savings?) For me, no.

Also, I preferred the bmi crew, more down to earth, but the service on BA was fine.

£700 is some difference!

Strake
 

BA are having to sometimes bus pax to the stand because BAA haven't finished the construction of the 'C' satellite. Once that is completed the problem goes away.

I thinks it's very unfair that BA attracts a lot of flak for circumstances which are way beyond their control.

I found there is little point writing about your concerns to WW, he doesn't even bother sending a standard reply from his minions which to me shows an utter lack of respect or interest in your customers.

Subsequently my large travel spend is now with other airlines as much as possible.

I was unfortunate enough to travel BA to Dusseldorf last week, forgetting the atrocious state of the aircraft, bundled boarding and sour faced staff. The highlight for me was going to the first lounge ( using up the last ever year of executive club membership hopefully) and being asked to present my gold card for the first time in 8 years.

When I explained I don't carry it but have never been asked for it before, the trumped up little twerp on the counter started ranting on about regulation this and that and BA policy. He then made me go through the entire performance of my address date of birth and various other checks. Astonishing really that the other hundreds of times I have passed through there my boarding pass with Gold written on the top right corner was more than sufficient!
And then we try to defend the airline, I know I have for years but not any more.

Simple facts, BA does not care about its customers or a level of service therefore BA does not deserve yours or my custom.

As far as I am concerned it can collapse on top of the idiot 'running' it.

If BA were to take a robust approach to BAA, get on top of problems and potential delays before they turn into disasters, exert severe penalties for failed service, you would be surprised to see how much control it could have.

Companies get the service they deserve, and this applies to what BA gets from BAA.

The relationship between managers at all levels is far too cosy; frightfully gentlemanly, don't you know, never a cross word or, if one escapes someone's lips in exasperation, there is no real force to back it up.

"Beyond our control" is almost always untrue when used as the excuse of last resort by the incompetent.

spock33When BA trumpeted that that T5 was opening and it was world beating and all the problems were over - I did not expect that to mean that nearly two years later they would still be bussing pax.

If they had cautiously announced T5 Phase 1 - and made that clear in all their publicity? If they had listened to the people who did the test pax + suitcase tests, that the system was not working? Etcetera.

For the record, I really like almost all of BA crew and the flights. The mgmt clearly have lost all touch and are now in the endgame. I say this with no joy.

I've been trying to decide why I sometimes pay (from my own pocket) for something other than economy. It's mainly because (when travelling long haul) I arrive feeling much less like death warmed up the more I pay. Access to the lounge at the airport is an added bonus.

But I have to say that I've never experienced any real difference in treatment as I pass through the airport. But then I've never travelled on Virgin. Oh, I've experienced priority boarding which is a bit of a two edged sword sometimes as you sit there watching everyone else struggling past (not all business seats involve a left turn) and priority security (sometimes works), priority check in (not much in it these days with self service). But I've still schlepped the corridors, got on buses etc.

Should I expect a better airport experience? Yes. But then so should everyone.

Should I expect a better service, the more I pay? Ah, there's the real question. There is little doubt that the airport forms a part of my overall travel experience. So, am I buying a better aircraft experience or a better travel experience?

Well, if the airport won't play ball the airline can't do much. And, there are places where the airline doesn't really have an option. As an extreme example I'll quote Iguassu in Argentina where we boarded across the tarmac (no bus, no jetway) in the rain with the Aerolineas Argentinas staff shuttling umbrellas across the tarmac. The only thing they might have done was escort the premium pax instead of leaving us all to get on with it.

In the end the airport experience on a long haul flight is a small part of the total travel experience timewise. It is particularly true that on arrival we all suddenly become equal. Being at the front of the plane should mean being first off which should mean first in the queue for immigration but at many airports that simply means having first choice of which existing queue to join.

I believe that it's not so much about bussing and being pushed in with everyone else so much as availability of buses and jetways. I've had the experience too many times of being told that a gate is not available or we're on the gate but the crew aren't there to operate the jetway, buses are just another part of that problem.

So, do I expect a better airport experience for my extra money? Yes. But in the end I expect it for everyone.

@ hartington ... nice, balanced post.

My wife and I travel Club a couple of times a year on holiday to the USA. We can afford to, and we hope for a bit extra for the money we pay - better seating, food and service, and Club Lounge, and priority security and boarding.

To my sadness, the only bit that really happens is the better seating ... the rest, these days, generally doesn't. And I guess that's why I sounding off here. We pay a premium rate for things that don't happen, and I guess the list will be familiar to many of you:

• Priority Security .. only ever experienced that at STN with MaxJet, otherwise LHR doesn't deliver. Nor does IAD, but then that's been under re-building since the 1990s and remains a shambles for Premium pax.
• Lounges ... never done VS, but BA are similar to the ones sold commercially for about £30. Possibly not as good.
• Boarding ... for the first time EVER, on my last trip out of T5, the BA staff were actually trapping the WT pax trying to use fast-track boarding and sending them back to start again. Unlike at IAD, where we were bundled and bounced by [insert race/religion here] family who shoved into the clearly signed queue/line, and then were allowed to get away with it by BA staff.
• Settling Down ... "Would you like a plastic glass of warm water?" In BA Club?
• Service ... "White wine, please." "Excuse me, that's warm ... I'll have a red." In BA Club?
• Meal = average, items missed almost every time we fly. And don't you DARE ask for what's been missed out, like the coffee. My wife is still hoping to get through a flight without being ignored somewhere.

Oh, it goes on, and on, and on. Why do I pay the money? Because, on a 7-8 hour sector, I want some physical comfort. And, as Hartington said, I can actually get off at the end in a fit state to pick up my rental car and drive round the DC Beltway for an hour in a safe state. That for me, is a major factor. Staggering off an aircraft after 8 hours in WT/WT+, spending another hour on Immigration and then car pick-up, is not the ideal scenario for an hour on the Beltway. [Especially today ... ;)]

And for this rather sub-standard product, I subsidise the folks in WT?

I'm now burning my BA Miles, and wondering what compensation BA will give me if my next flight [due to IA] results in me being given a cardboard snack-box instead of the usual "adequate" service that I've already paid for.

TTB like you I pay my own way. Four returns each year in BA First, over 30 grands worth. Last year I used BA Miles for three trips, and Airmiles for the fourth. Now I'm about to book my first First for a while with my own cash and I'm really wondering whether I should try something else. Yes the seat is great but the service on the aircraft is not as good as it was (the food and wine are now pretty average, unless you like leaks and beetroot), and the service on the ground (other than the Concorde lounge) is identical to that enjoyed by those in Y.

Yet for the fifteen years previous I've been a happy BA First pax. They really have screwed it up, and one wonders whether the bankers, if and when they return, will take notice and reject this crappy product range as I am going to do.

Interesting, Sir!

The Memsahib and i were just discussing the possibility of going F ... and decided "it's probably not worth it". As you are about to discover, using your own ££££ tends to focus the mind a bit more! ;)

Sadly, my required sector is only served by BA, VS and a couple of US carriers I wouldn't bother with. As I've noted on other threads, "I could get used to the purple/red colour scheme" although other Pruners have said that's gone downhill as well.

Bloody British financial crisis, eh? I'll just have to grit my teeth and pay for the 'privilege' of having modest comfort. And bemoan the fact that I don't really feel I'm getting what I pay for.

Being a dinosaur I remember when you were escorted from the First check-in desks through security to the lounge. Of course you were on your own thereafter. But it was a nice touch, as was the cart that was wheeled out with the food service, and the Dom Perignon. And on arrival at SIN (and only SIN) your bag was first off and waiting for you in the baggage hall. (Although you now have a seat to yourself and the IFE doesn't fail because you have accidently spilt your drink on the long suffering tape player under the armrest..)

Now you may or may not get cashews, you may or may not get a hot towel, you may get fed immediately or left for ages, the scrambled egg is not what it used to be, I have better wines at home and I can't even have the simple pasta snack I used to enjoy. The only thing that works is the seat!

Incidently I wonder why, when designing T5, they didn't put a security route from the First check in area straight to the lounge. Now you have to muck in with the other plebs in the (not really) Fast Track route. But you can then turn right and staright into the lounge, avoiding the retail mayhem and the hoi polloi:E

Lucky you ... twice in the last 4 trips the Mem's seat hasn't. Once for a video failure and once for not motoring fully-upright. On both occasions SHE got ticked off by BA cabin crew. But then we were only in Club. ;)

two tone
 

i read your posts

you have not tried VS to IAD upperclass

well for your money you will prob get a limo to the airport,
check-in/bag drop is minutes,
you get VS own security area accessed by the bar code on your boarding pass,
and in 5 minutes you are in the Clubhouse where you eat and drink yourself
stupid before you board and have your hair done if you wish...
the lounge is the best bit for sure,
the boarding usually means you get on quick (can be a shambles overseas)
they rarely bus at LHR (inbounds do sometimes but its rare, except in the mornings)

on board,
well,
sometimes it reminds me of going into a tacky sparkly 1980's disco and other times its very calm and reserved...and that can be the crew too!
the boarding music can be a din...too loud...
the mood lighting and the ambience sometimes can be superb...
the crews can be great and fun, once you get over the fact they have sparkly eye shadow on and look like cheryl cole, (that's the boys) lol joke,
no big ol grannies here ala BA...
although i do like the older ladies at BA very much...most are very sweet and
very pro.

the seat,
its private, maybe abit narrow for some,
the middle seats are wider in many cases than the window seats,
you can sleep, you get nice duvet and jim jams...

the food on board...
eat in the Clubhouse and go to bed...(on night flight)
food has the lost the plot on many flights i have done,
less of it and quality is much lower than ever.
you wont go hungry though, you can ask for more...

day flight?
frankly the virgin premium economy seat and cabin is great for 8 hours, maybe even LAX,
but take a picnic hamper with you. you will starve.
the food is better than Y but not loads of it.

at the other end,
in Upper your bags SHOULD come off first,
you will be off the plane first and sometimes you get immigration fastrak or
there is no one there anyway.
and a limo to your hotel or place...

only trouble is VS is inconsistent whereas for your BA was always the same,
always had good flights on BA in all classes but i have not been on BA long haul for maybe 3 or so years now...
last time was BA First from Cairo and was called 'mate' by the steward...
ummm i'm not a chavv

give VS a try to washington, you might like it

followed by

:ok:

Rog747
If I may say, an excellent and very accurate description of VS.

I completely agree with your comments that the onboard part of the journey with them has lost its shine recently. Where VS really gets it right (as I tried to explain earlier) is the non-flying bit..limos, clubhouse and dedicated security.

HaC and TTB,
It's all relative but I would not spend that amount of personal money on BA F. Perhaps if they gave the VS level of "off-aircraft" support, then yes but the cabin service (I mean product not people) is still not up to scratch and certainly nowhere near that which I think you both probably experienced previously.

Has anyone tried the PrivatAir service operated for LH out of DUS and LX out of ZRH to New York? How does that compare to the BA experience?

Likewise, any first hand experience of the BA LCY ~ JFK operation?

lon city - jfk BA
 

my pal just did this from LCY and back with BA
said it was marvellous

cant say more at the mo but he is a big hi-flyer and also lives in FRA
so for him to say it was good knowing what he's like then it must have been good,
stops in SNN o/b for fuel and clearing customs said it was a breeze:ok:

I have just returned from Denver with BA in Club where the flight out and back was on time and the service faultless. The new flatbeds were a vast improvement and just about fitted my 6'4" frame.

I guess I am one of the few satisfied customers of BA!!

@ Rog747 ... thanks for the dissertation on VS. Informative and useful. Our last VS trip was about 4/5 year ago [in PE] and was OK - apart from the fact that, when we checked in, my wife [who had paid for the tickets] wasn't on the manifest! Quickly resolved, though. Even then we had noted a bit of decline in the on-boad service ["financial imperatives", I guess] compared with previous trips. We're still keeping an open mind for September - a lot hinges on what BA delivers for us in April.

@ Gannet Fan ... from intensive reading on the CC Forum, it appears that standards of service can vary according to the popularity of the route with the CC, especially on long-haul. Denver [or at least the crew's hotel] may be better than the option given them on the Washington run [where I would guess they're lodged in Herndon, miles from anywhere of merit].

Intersting pricing on LCY-JFK.

If you want to travel on Sunday then can get for about £2k return.

Midweek can pay as much as £5k return. Outbound flights (stop shannon to refuel I suppose and replace crew) are as much as £2.5k less than the return. I am guessing these people will go to LHR for outbound.

So people value their time at £2.5k not to stop at shannon, but to hack across london to LHR and then fly non-stop?

The Privatair product on the ZRH EWR route is a bit aged now to be honest. Old style seating and poor IFE. The newer SWISS A333 with their new business seating is better, even if I prefer Newark over JFK.