Airlines investigated over claims they deliberately split up groups then charge for a
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I get it when low cost carriers charge for everything. I just don't get it when full service carriers start charging for seats. Case in point EK. They are at least 10%-20% more expensive than most carriers on the route I fly. They still charge for seating unless you want a middle seat. The have started this about a year ago, what has changed?
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I wonder if people would be happy if these fees were required to be included in the price. In other words everyone would pay the fee (and perhaps a lower fee as a result).
I don't think so.
But what about fees for more legroom, or for 1 piece of luggage, or ...?
I don't think so.
But what about fees for more legroom, or for 1 piece of luggage, or ...?
But what about fees for more legroom, or for 1 piece of luggage, or ...?
But the issue is deliberately splitting parties up and then charging them to be re-united.
I can see the logic where there’s a tangible cost in labour or materials which can be, in whole or in part, deducted from the cost of the ticket. Want a meal – then pay extra for it. Want a suitcase checked – then pay extra for it…….. I can also accept that some passengers are happy to pay a bit extra for ‘premium’ treatment – extra legroom, priority boarding etc; at least they have the choice not to do so.
But I simply can’t see that there’s any cost to the airline in allocating seating in such a way that passengers travelling on the same booking are seated together. Which leads to the conclusion that they are deliberately inconveniencing their customers just so they can charge them to put things right.
I can see the logic where there’s a tangible cost in labour or materials which can be, in whole or in part, deducted from the cost of the ticket. Want a meal – then pay extra for it. Want a suitcase checked – then pay extra for it…….. I can also accept that some passengers are happy to pay a bit extra for ‘premium’ treatment – extra legroom, priority boarding etc; at least they have the choice not to do so.
But I simply can’t see that there’s any cost to the airline in allocating seating in such a way that passengers travelling on the same booking are seated together. Which leads to the conclusion that they are deliberately inconveniencing their customers just so they can charge them to put things right.
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Well yes, but perhaps they are not deliberately splitting parties up, but blocking certain seats from assignment to non-payers, until departure time. These seats could very well include all window and aisle seats, which are more in demand than middle seats.
At the time of check-in, often weeks in advance with the lcc model, two seats together may not be available. Closer to departure, as the flight is managed, adjacent seats could become available, but by then it isn’t easy to reseat allready checked in passengers.
If I am booking close to departure, and am prepared to pay for seat selection, I certainly don’t want all the aisle/window seats to be allocated to people that haven’t paid.
At the time of check-in, often weeks in advance with the lcc model, two seats together may not be available. Closer to departure, as the flight is managed, adjacent seats could become available, but by then it isn’t easy to reseat allready checked in passengers.
If I am booking close to departure, and am prepared to pay for seat selection, I certainly don’t want all the aisle/window seats to be allocated to people that haven’t paid.
I think you need to review the actual allegations being made. Many have found that when they try to check in and select seats as a group there are no adjacent seats available, but as soon as they agree to pay the adjacent seats fee suddenly the adjacent seats appear as if by magic. And the authorities have become confident that it isn't a coincidence because they have whistleblower evidence from staff and former staff involved in these systems.
Fraudulent and corrupt activity - essentially what we have come to expect from airlines. Clearly we need to reinstitute public flogging for airline executives and captains until they learn to behave in an honourable manner.
Fraudulent and corrupt activity - essentially what we have come to expect from airlines. Clearly we need to reinstitute public flogging for airline executives and captains until they learn to behave in an honourable manner.
Paxing All Over The World
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Leave the FC - just the Chairman (it is usually a Man!) and all of the Board to be in the Stocks. These may be in a place suitable so that, when queuing up for check-in, pax may occupy their time by flinging rotten fruit at them. Given we now have fewer foreign workers to pick the fruit in the UK - it can be shipped to the airports.
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At the time of check-in, often weeks in advance with the lcc model, two seats together may not be available. Closer to departure, as the flight is managed, adjacent seats could become available, but by then it isn’t easy to reseat allready checked in passengers.
If I am booking close to departure, and am prepared to pay for seat selection, I certainly don’t want all the aisle/window seats to be allocated to people that haven’t paid.
Oh dear; you have allowed yourself to become brain washed. Is it the LoCo syndrome or just punch drunk?
In the beginning there was only free seating and a scrum at boarding time. Slowly, and for dubious reasons, seat allocation crept in; just like normal airlines. I suspect it was to speed up boarding and had nothing to do with pax convenience. Then LoCo's realised there might be some mileage/profit in charging for specific seating, i.e. front row & extra leg room overwings etc. Those who didn't want these were allocated seats at random, but together if on the same booking. Then has come the 'pay for any seat choice' system. To encourage that it is alleged that same booking pax are being separated.
If that is true it means that a group of marketing whallas have sat around a table; some one has thrown that idea into the hat, and they have agreed to implement yet another fleecing tactic. That must be true because it wasn't there 5 years ago, and it didn't invent itself. It just shows the mentality of Monday morning meetings. What will be the new 'fleece of the week'?
If I am booking close to departure, and am prepared to pay for seat selection, I certainly don’t want all the aisle/window seats to be allocated to people that haven’t paid.
Oh dear; you have allowed yourself to become brain washed. Is it the LoCo syndrome or just punch drunk?
In the beginning there was only free seating and a scrum at boarding time. Slowly, and for dubious reasons, seat allocation crept in; just like normal airlines. I suspect it was to speed up boarding and had nothing to do with pax convenience. Then LoCo's realised there might be some mileage/profit in charging for specific seating, i.e. front row & extra leg room overwings etc. Those who didn't want these were allocated seats at random, but together if on the same booking. Then has come the 'pay for any seat choice' system. To encourage that it is alleged that same booking pax are being separated.
If that is true it means that a group of marketing whallas have sat around a table; some one has thrown that idea into the hat, and they have agreed to implement yet another fleecing tactic. That must be true because it wasn't there 5 years ago, and it didn't invent itself. It just shows the mentality of Monday morning meetings. What will be the new 'fleece of the week'?
PAXboy
Sounds like a plan. Let's put it on the Government website for people to vote on so it can be introduced as a new legal requirement once the UK "takes back control" after leaving the EU next year.
I personally think we should leave Captains on the list, because they are so prone to telling veryone that they have absolute authority over (and thus absolute responsibility for) everything that happens on their aeroplane.
Sounds like a plan. Let's put it on the Government website for people to vote on so it can be introduced as a new legal requirement once the UK "takes back control" after leaving the EU next year.
I personally think we should leave Captains on the list, because they are so prone to telling veryone that they have absolute authority over (and thus absolute responsibility for) everything that happens on their aeroplane.
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I think you need to review the actual allegations being made. Many have found that when they try to check in and select seats as a group there are no adjacent seats available, but as soon as they agree to pay the adjacent seats fee suddenly the adjacent seats appear as if by magic.
Now, is this deliberately splitting groups, or just allowing them to select only the cheap seats?
Oh dear; you have allowed yourself to become brain washed. Is it the LoCo syndrome or just punch drunk?
What's important is that it's a totally foreseeable consequence of the way the LCC(s) in question have programmed their seat assignment logic, which they have done nothing to mitigate and indeed are using to their financial advantage.
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This is what the CAA say...
Families, children and infants
The seating of children close by their parents or guardians should be the aim of airline seat allocation procedures for family groups and large parties of children.
Young children and infants who are accompanied by adults, should ideally be seated in the same seat row as the adult. Children and accompanying adults should not be separated by more than one aisle. Where this is not possible, children should be separated by no more than one seat row from accompanying adults. This is because the speed of an emergency evacuation may be affected by adults trying to reach their children.
Whenever a number of infants and children are travelling together the airline should make every effort to ensure that they can be readily supervised by the responsible accompanying adults.
Families, children and infants
The seating of children close by their parents or guardians should be the aim of airline seat allocation procedures for family groups and large parties of children.
Young children and infants who are accompanied by adults, should ideally be seated in the same seat row as the adult. Children and accompanying adults should not be separated by more than one aisle. Where this is not possible, children should be separated by no more than one seat row from accompanying adults. This is because the speed of an emergency evacuation may be affected by adults trying to reach their children.
Whenever a number of infants and children are travelling together the airline should make every effort to ensure that they can be readily supervised by the responsible accompanying adults.
CAA wording seems slightly woolly - use of "aim", "should" and "ideally" rather than "must". Leaves plenty of wriggle room. Presumably explains press reports of children being separated from parents on aircraft.
Raises question of who (notionally) assumes responsibility for supervising evacuation of unaccompanied children and infants - does it reside with adult sitting next to them. i.e An infant is plonked next to you and you are now "in loco parentis" ? Similarly, who is responsible for ensuring children & infants observe cabin safety announcements ? Of course, as CAA recognises, in real life, parents are going to go to the aid of their children in an emergency, even if that means battling against flow of departing pax.
Raises question of who (notionally) assumes responsibility for supervising evacuation of unaccompanied children and infants - does it reside with adult sitting next to them. i.e An infant is plonked next to you and you are now "in loco parentis" ? Similarly, who is responsible for ensuring children & infants observe cabin safety announcements ? Of course, as CAA recognises, in real life, parents are going to go to the aid of their children in an emergency, even if that means battling against flow of departing pax.
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Families ARE being split!
Families are definitely being split up. I'm sitting on the tarmac at SOU in a Q400. The cabin crew have just had to rearrange most of the seating because of families with very young children being spread to the 4 corners of the aeroplane! CC denied that the airline was doing this deliberately but it's hard to imagine that it could be anything else. I gave up my seat so a father could sit with his 4yo daughter. Hats off to the CC for recognising and resolving the problem but it should never have happened in the first place.
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I rarely see seating issues on flights at my carrier unless it’s a full flight with numerous children onboard. Even then, you can see that the algorithm has done its best to achieve the next best thing.... no more than a row away. Very occasionally not even this is achievable and the crew steps in. I can only speak from experience at my airline and I can categorically say that I have not seen any evidence of people being split up on purpose. I can’t speak for any other carriers.
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Easyfkyer83, thank you for your comments on seating children. Butwe are seem to be back on seating of Children, which is irrelevant to this thread.
It is intentionally separating adults.
It is intentionally separating adults.
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I rarely see that either. If split, many adults will reach out to the crew to help. Even then, they are sat across the aisle or in front/behind each other which again demonstrates how the algorithm doing its best to get people sat together.
Again, just experience at my carrier.
Again, just experience at my carrier.