How about a fine/prison for taking luggage down the slide?
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@buggerall I am certain a few did on the Hudson. But far less than would be killed for a $10,000 payment for not.
Often these people do not have bank accounts and killings for less than $100 are common.
Often these people do not have bank accounts and killings for less than $100 are common.
As a matter of interest, How do airlines treat people who loose their bags in a evacuation like this ?
For arguments sake say a bag with Passport , Wallet , $2000 currency , Medication, and $2500 worth of assorted camera / electronics kit.
For arguments sake say a bag with Passport , Wallet , $2000 currency , Medication, and $2500 worth of assorted camera / electronics kit.
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They took the bags but survived - what's wrong!
To people questioning/distracting the whole issue by giving undue weightage to opening of the overhead bins by passengers:
Did they not survive anyway?
There's an old adage : "If the map doesn't fit the ground, the map must be wrong!"
May be our presumption/hypothesis that 'in taking the baggage the people will compromise theirs and others lives' was scientifically proven wrong
Not promoting such practices 'considered' potentially unsafe but many a times what we think is wrong may not be so! Suffice it to say that the world suffers from presumptions, prejudices and the wrongfully derived inferences swiftly and thoughtlessly morphed into rules, regulations and even laws!
Your mileage might vary
Did they not survive anyway?
There's an old adage : "If the map doesn't fit the ground, the map must be wrong!"
May be our presumption/hypothesis that 'in taking the baggage the people will compromise theirs and others lives' was scientifically proven wrong
Not promoting such practices 'considered' potentially unsafe but many a times what we think is wrong may not be so! Suffice it to say that the world suffers from presumptions, prejudices and the wrongfully derived inferences swiftly and thoughtlessly morphed into rules, regulations and even laws!
Your mileage might vary
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The airlines make a huge amount of money from freight and from passengers bags. The airlines will not guarantee the safe reunion of passengers with their bags nor take any responsibility for their airline or agents mishandling of the bags. Passengers who have left their bags in aircraft due to an evacuation have to accept that they will be rifled for valuables before they get them back (if they ever do) [cf Southwest wheelbarrow at LGA when a reporter lost his laptop without recompense].
So - passengers know that if they want to keep their valuables safe they have to be kept with them in the cabin because the airline will not keep them safe. By definition then the bags in the cabin normally carry items that the pax consider valuable. The pax are therefore sorely tempted to retrieve these valuable items when told to evacuate as they know they will have to find them on eBay otherwise.
The cure is in the hands of the airlines. They should take responsibility for loss, theft or damage to checked bags _and_ for bags left in an evacuation. The prices for checking bags should not be so usurious (they are seen as a profit item by the beancounters).
Passengers should be told to have - or be given - a body belt or shoulder bag that can contain important papers, money and small valuables. These shoulder bags could be worn during takeoff and landing and would be no hindrance to evacuation.
It is your company's fault that pax take their bags with them - have a quiet word with your management. It may be more effective than fulminating here.
So - passengers know that if they want to keep their valuables safe they have to be kept with them in the cabin because the airline will not keep them safe. By definition then the bags in the cabin normally carry items that the pax consider valuable. The pax are therefore sorely tempted to retrieve these valuable items when told to evacuate as they know they will have to find them on eBay otherwise.
The cure is in the hands of the airlines. They should take responsibility for loss, theft or damage to checked bags _and_ for bags left in an evacuation. The prices for checking bags should not be so usurious (they are seen as a profit item by the beancounters).
Passengers should be told to have - or be given - a body belt or shoulder bag that can contain important papers, money and small valuables. These shoulder bags could be worn during takeoff and landing and would be no hindrance to evacuation.
It is your company's fault that pax take their bags with them - have a quiet word with your management. It may be more effective than fulminating here.
It seems typical that the ignorant believe pilferage if rife in the airline industry but it is utterly false. Pilferage represents a tiny fraction of the less than 1% of baggage mishandlings that are reported.
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See e.g. BBC NEWS | UK | Passenger criticises BA treatment (there were other horror stories too).
Expect carriers and airports of lower reputation to be worse.
This is why pax take bags.
[I note from that story that all pax were seen by doctors, however I have been unable to establish if that was for the purpose of covering the airline against injury compensation claims or for assisting pax needing medication. I know which I suspect.]
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OK, can we figure out, please, what is acceptable to take with you?
A ladies small handbag?
A ladies medium handbag?
A ladies large handbag?
A ladies very large handbag?
My bumbag with my passport, insulin, glucose monitor, money, credit cards and other valuables?
It appears some are saying 'none of the above' despite no empirical evidence that taking even a wheelie bag has ever caused death or injury.
My stuff is coming with me. And I'm not being selfish.
A ladies small handbag?
A ladies medium handbag?
A ladies large handbag?
A ladies very large handbag?
My bumbag with my passport, insulin, glucose monitor, money, credit cards and other valuables?
It appears some are saying 'none of the above' despite no empirical evidence that taking even a wheelie bag has ever caused death or injury.
My stuff is coming with me. And I'm not being selfish.
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GoveNT 1% baggage loss on checked bags means that if you travel weekly for business you will lose your stuff once a year. Show me a pro photographer whose insurance will let him replace $20K of camera stuff once a year.
The situation with bag loss is a scandal. In particular it is responsible for the long lines at security - people would be ready to fly in paper pyjamas and no cabin bags if they *knew* that they'd get their clothes and stuff back at the other end. As it is, no laptop, important paper file or anything life-essential within the next 48 hours can be checked.
It's impressive to see how much energy in airports is expended on stopping "foreigners" bringing in contraband, and how little is done to stop local hoods from pilfering the bags under the eyes of the local police.
Edmund
The situation with bag loss is a scandal. In particular it is responsible for the long lines at security - people would be ready to fly in paper pyjamas and no cabin bags if they *knew* that they'd get their clothes and stuff back at the other end. As it is, no laptop, important paper file or anything life-essential within the next 48 hours can be checked.
It's impressive to see how much energy in airports is expended on stopping "foreigners" bringing in contraband, and how little is done to stop local hoods from pilfering the bags under the eyes of the local police.
Edmund
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It seems typical that the ignorant believe pilferage if rife in the airline industry but it is utterly false. Pilferage represents a tiny fraction of the less than 1% of baggage mishandlings that are reported.
As I said previously, until airlines treat checked bags with proper respect - the same respect the owner would - many people will not check their valuables. And if it valuable to them and they have to get off in a hurry, in that pressurised traumatic moment when thinking logically sometimes goes out the window first, there's a chance they'll [try to] take it with them.
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One solution would be to tell PAX not to take their baggage in the event of an emergency evacuation. Sounds simple I know, but there are plenty of airlines in Europe and beyond that make absolutely no mention of bags in the pre-flight safety demo. Don't inflate your life jacket before exit and remove high heels feature but no mention of leaving bags behind.... simple education, not prison would be a good starting point.
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You will find it extremely difficult to convince a business man who has a laptop with years and years of emails, documents, sales and lead generation data to leave it behind in the event of an emergency. I bet for many the small risk is worth it and many cases a fine might be worth it too. You are talking about someone's livelihood in a lot of cases. I would certainly take something like a small laptop bag with me in an emergency evacuation. In reality, it's not going to impede the evacuation any more than the old fat dear in front of me.
...and on the subject of backups. Easier said than done. Not everything is in flat file formats and as restorable as it would seem.
...and on the subject of backups. Easier said than done. Not everything is in flat file formats and as restorable as it would seem.
Last edited by Superpilot; 30th Dec 2016 at 12:19.
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How about a fine/prison for taking luggage down the slide?
Couple of points;
1) a fine won't work, because people will take their chances and try it anyway.
2) how will these fines be enforced? You will need cameras in the cabin because I would doubt that eye witness testimonies during the chaos of an evacuation will hold up in a courtroom.
3) better IMHO would be a legal approach in the direction of "endangering people's lives" or "obstructing an escape route" with actual prison terms.
4) perhaps blacklisting passengers, banning them for life to fly on any IATA airline?
5) if none of the above work, I guess we can always (re)introduce the death penalty...
1) a fine won't work, because people will take their chances and try it anyway.
2) how will these fines be enforced? You will need cameras in the cabin because I would doubt that eye witness testimonies during the chaos of an evacuation will hold up in a courtroom.
3) better IMHO would be a legal approach in the direction of "endangering people's lives" or "obstructing an escape route" with actual prison terms.
4) perhaps blacklisting passengers, banning them for life to fly on any IATA airline?
5) if none of the above work, I guess we can always (re)introduce the death penalty...
Then there are some american airports where a job as a baggage handler is essentially an all-you-can-eat buffet for the light-fingered. The worst I've experienced would be Chicago, as it seems have some others:
But you airline chappies really need to get your acts together and sing from a single hymn book. On the one hand we have harrumphing aircrew sneering at their customers for having the temerity to bring so much as a wallet into the cabin rather than putting it in the hold. On the other hand your employers make it clear at every stage of the ticket purchasing process that they don't want our stinking luggage cluttering up the hold and taking up space that they can use for paying freight (needed to pay for the 5-star hotel parties for the cabin crew, I expect) so we if we actually want to take more than the clothes we stand in we must either pack it into cabin baggage or take out a mortgage to put it in the hold.
Once you have your own house in order, and have got your stories straight then (and only then) will all this unseemly whining at the people who pay your salaries be anything less than childish tantrums.
€0.04 supplied,
PDR
Laptop is replaceable with some minor money. But the real value is the work on the laptop. FInancial data / artistic work / whatever that may not be recoverable ever.
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PDR,
Don't forget the airlines refuse all liability for valuables in checked luggage! This despite neither Warsaw nor MC99 allowing them to do so (for international and intra-EU flights).
The US DOT has directed that such refusals to be null and void, but the lawyers have refused to allow the airline tariffs to be amended. It is their first line of defence when their customers' valuables are damaged or stolen. Only a savvy traveller or a PPRuNe member know the truth.
Agree with your post completely.
Don't forget the airlines refuse all liability for valuables in checked luggage! This despite neither Warsaw nor MC99 allowing them to do so (for international and intra-EU flights).
The US DOT has directed that such refusals to be null and void, but the lawyers have refused to allow the airline tariffs to be amended. It is their first line of defence when their customers' valuables are damaged or stolen. Only a savvy traveller or a PPRuNe member know the truth.
Agree with your post completely.
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How about:
-Insure the pax cabin bags so in case they leave them during an evac they get a compensation. EXPLAIN this to pax.
-During an emergency cabin prep before landing allow the pax to take small personal items from the bag. Such as passport, cellphone, wallet, etc.
-After that, before landing lock the hatracks and put some sticker on each lock clearly stating it's not gotta open.
-The safety demo has to be more explicit somehow. I have no idea how, but the relaxing music and smooth videos of most airlines just don't get the pax's attention.
About arrests and prison, I don't imagine how you can convict some Indian dude that saw a plane for the first time in his life, doesn't know how to read and has no idea of what the hell just happened... Locking him away is not gotta solve much I think. Plus in any European court the pax could simply state that he\she was under a lot of stress (and it's true) and couldn't think straight under those circumstance, so the pax simply grabbed the bag without realizing what he was doing. This would be enough to get away with it.
-Insure the pax cabin bags so in case they leave them during an evac they get a compensation. EXPLAIN this to pax.
-During an emergency cabin prep before landing allow the pax to take small personal items from the bag. Such as passport, cellphone, wallet, etc.
-After that, before landing lock the hatracks and put some sticker on each lock clearly stating it's not gotta open.
-The safety demo has to be more explicit somehow. I have no idea how, but the relaxing music and smooth videos of most airlines just don't get the pax's attention.
About arrests and prison, I don't imagine how you can convict some Indian dude that saw a plane for the first time in his life, doesn't know how to read and has no idea of what the hell just happened... Locking him away is not gotta solve much I think. Plus in any European court the pax could simply state that he\she was under a lot of stress (and it's true) and couldn't think straight under those circumstance, so the pax simply grabbed the bag without realizing what he was doing. This would be enough to get away with it.
Smaller bags would be a good start
Maybe airlines could start by restricting people to a small item of cabin luggage. Instead of bags on wheels that are so large they can barely get them down the aisles and need help lifting them into an overhead locker. I'm just amazed when I see what people take onboard.
Maybe airlines could start by restricting people to a small item of cabin luggage. Instead of bags on wheels that are so large they can barely get them down the aisles and need help lifting them into an overhead locker. I'm just amazed when I see what people take onboard.
Perhaps what we are really seeing here is just how out of touch with reality some aircrew really are!
PDR
You will find it extremely difficult to convince a business man who has a laptop with years and years of emails, documents, sales and lead generation data to leave it behind in the event of an emergency.
PDR
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It's an interesting discussion, but apart from the optics what is the real-life impact here?
And why don't the airlines fix the checked bag loss/pilferage problem? I've given up on any form of bag when I travel, just take a over the shoulder briefcase and 3 socks and T shirts. I used to check a bag for the toothpaste and shampoo which security confiscates, but it's not worth the bother, I just pass on shampoo and toothpaste or buy some cr*p at arrival. I had 3 or 4 bags misplaced and it's just too much hassle to deal with on a regular basis.
Edmund
And why don't the airlines fix the checked bag loss/pilferage problem? I've given up on any form of bag when I travel, just take a over the shoulder briefcase and 3 socks and T shirts. I used to check a bag for the toothpaste and shampoo which security confiscates, but it's not worth the bother, I just pass on shampoo and toothpaste or buy some cr*p at arrival. I had 3 or 4 bags misplaced and it's just too much hassle to deal with on a regular basis.
Edmund
