Cabin Baggage in an Evacuation
The type of evacuations we're talking about are where there is potential danger but not literally instant danger. I don't actually see the problem with someone taking a small bag/handbag with passport, money etc. Those who decide to be stupid and start trying to open overhead lockers are going to be mown down or pushed on by others waiting to get out.
On the other hand, in a really dangerous environment where say the a/c has crashed and the seats or interior is on fire and people are dying in their seats, I doubt anyone who has a chance of getting out would be looking for luggage.
On the other hand, in a really dangerous environment where say the a/c has crashed and the seats or interior is on fire and people are dying in their seats, I doubt anyone who has a chance of getting out would be looking for luggage.
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Link to CAA Safety Notice HERE
I am curious as to why responsibility for implementing this has been trickled down to the Airline companies. Surely, it is precisely this kind of situation where we rely on the regulatory authority, in this case the CAA, to investigate, or at least manage the investigation and then regulate?
If I may just point out the additional problems with taking hand-baggage, beyond the obvious potential for obstructing rapid evacuation at the exit being used and at the base of the slide. Escape slides can be damaged by these items, making the slide/exit potentially unusable for further evacuation; there is a also a problem with bags arriving (rapidly) at the bottom of the slide, where there is likely to be a pile-up of people, especially the very young, elderly or infirm. Finally, there are recorded instances where duty-free items, specifically glass bottles have been removed during an evacuation; the resultant broken glass at the foot of the slide has caused injury.
There is no doubt that some pax remove hand-baggage during evacuation because they don't know, or understand the potential consequences; it is these people that the CAA is seeking to inform. There remains a hard-core of people (see twitter and other internet feeds) who will remove their bags despite a full understanding of the issues, because they have made an assessment that their own temporary convenience outweighs the risks to others. I'm afraid that is a (thankfully minor) trait of the species.
I am curious as to why responsibility for implementing this has been trickled down to the Airline companies. Surely, it is precisely this kind of situation where we rely on the regulatory authority, in this case the CAA, to investigate, or at least manage the investigation and then regulate?
If I may just point out the additional problems with taking hand-baggage, beyond the obvious potential for obstructing rapid evacuation at the exit being used and at the base of the slide. Escape slides can be damaged by these items, making the slide/exit potentially unusable for further evacuation; there is a also a problem with bags arriving (rapidly) at the bottom of the slide, where there is likely to be a pile-up of people, especially the very young, elderly or infirm. Finally, there are recorded instances where duty-free items, specifically glass bottles have been removed during an evacuation; the resultant broken glass at the foot of the slide has caused injury.
There is no doubt that some pax remove hand-baggage during evacuation because they don't know, or understand the potential consequences; it is these people that the CAA is seeking to inform. There remains a hard-core of people (see twitter and other internet feeds) who will remove their bags despite a full understanding of the issues, because they have made an assessment that their own temporary convenience outweighs the risks to others. I'm afraid that is a (thankfully minor) trait of the species.
Paxing All Over The World
[S.o.S. This is not intended as thread drift but observation of human nature]
On Thursday morning I was waiting at LHR T2 international arrivals. As I had to wait a fair amount of time, there was much time to watch the arrivals and their meeters and greeters. It is a scene I have often watched but, I was reminded of this thread as I saw:
On Thursday morning I was waiting at LHR T2 international arrivals. As I had to wait a fair amount of time, there was much time to watch the arrivals and their meeters and greeters. It is a scene I have often watched but, I was reminded of this thread as I saw:
- People emerge from the doors and stop in their tracks to survey the crowd whilst folks backed up behind them.
- People emerge and then stop to consult their mobile [cell] phone for information whilst folks backed up behind them.
- People get a few metres and are then stopped by their M&G rushing into the exit channel and embracing them.
- Many grandmothers cannot wait another 20 seconds for their arrival to clear out of the pathway of others.
- The smaller exit channel of the two was often blocked by the above examples.
- Pax doing a U-turn and heading back to the doors marked NO ENTRY and waiting for them to open, before going through in the face of the outflow.
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In the case of LHR T2 specifically, they kind of bring it on themselves by putting a shop full of alcohol and perfume right by the exit door and filling the space with Heathrow Express ticket sales people (who are also a few meters away on the other side of the door, so it's pointless to have them in this corridor). People might walk right past them then suddenly think they have to buy something and just totally ignore the fact the door has a big no entry sign on it. It's a stupid reason yes, but LHR could just put staff there who have to watch out for people going back and deter them from doing so. They won't get back into the baggage hall though as there is another set of doors which lead there and they are monitored by customs personnel. The most they can do is buy a bottle of Vodka or a train ticket which is all extra revenue for LHR, so perhaps they don't really mind.
As for people ignoring barriers, well that's just their own ignorance.
As for people ignoring barriers, well that's just their own ignorance.
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Polite!
Obgraham One has to agree in part, however if a baggrabber impedes my exit from a burning plane he/she will not be merely pushed from my path, they will be beaten struck kicked and trampled until not only out of my way but everyone behind me.
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Son of Slot
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Now, now boys - no fighting in the aisles. Or the forum! 
Everyone back to their seats. Let's just assume that some people will need to be stepped over/around or bypassed by 'seat surfing'.
NONE of us know how we would react in a true emergency. There are so many factors which others (such as TightSlot) can enumerate for us.
Everyone back to their seats. Let's just assume that some people will need to be stepped over/around or bypassed by 'seat surfing'.NONE of us know how we would react in a true emergency. There are so many factors which others (such as TightSlot) can enumerate for us.
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Starting a fight isn't a good idea. Neither is stopping politely to wait whilst the idiot gets their bag out of overhead.
So the first thing is for every passenger to not tolerate anyone impeding rapid evacuation, and doing all necessary to maintain speedy evacuation, whatever it takes.
So the first thing is for every passenger to not tolerate anyone impeding rapid evacuation, and doing all necessary to maintain speedy evacuation, whatever it takes.
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Is there any empirical evidence that taking carry on has led to death or injury? All I have seen is anecdotal suggestions that it is, or comments that 'if anyone dares to impede me ...' (I assume this includes the elderly and the infirm).
I admit it 'feels right' to have the regulation and by having it you could reduce the numbers of 'morons', but I think these type of regulations should be evidence based.
I also believe that a more tailored regulation that recognises that passengers (customers) do have reasonable needs to take medicine (and medical supplies), documents and money/credit cards.
Telling pax that they cannot take anything isn't working. And there is evidence of that.
Isn't one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results?
I admit it 'feels right' to have the regulation and by having it you could reduce the numbers of 'morons', but I think these type of regulations should be evidence based.
I also believe that a more tailored regulation that recognises that passengers (customers) do have reasonable needs to take medicine (and medical supplies), documents and money/credit cards.
Telling pax that they cannot take anything isn't working. And there is evidence of that.
Isn't one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results?
Paxboy - another one....
On arriving as pax at T2 yesterday, a bunch of self-important large middle aged white males met each other at the end of the "turn right" meet and greet area. They just blocked it off with their abandoned trolleys and took group photos.
One of them was rather grumpy with me as I pushed his trolley hard out of the way, which also cleared 2 of the other trolleys.
Morons
On arriving as pax at T2 yesterday, a bunch of self-important large middle aged white males met each other at the end of the "turn right" meet and greet area. They just blocked it off with their abandoned trolleys and took group photos.
One of them was rather grumpy with me as I pushed his trolley hard out of the way, which also cleared 2 of the other trolleys.
Morons
Overhead bins.
I am all in favour of locking them,if an announcement were made before "pushback"that the overheads will be locked in say five minutes and not opened until the engines stop at destination with an added sentence or two that this is for safety I am sure this would do it.
Airlines should start restricting the size of hand baggage as it is now getting beyond a joke the size of bags some people carry on.
Airlines should start restricting the size of hand baggage as it is now getting beyond a joke the size of bags some people carry on.
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Locking overhead bins will result in passengers stuffing their bags under seats. That might even impede evacuation as people haul desperately at their kit and others trip over loose items.
Best solution IMHO is for airline staff to shove $5,000 into the hands of every passenger who disembarks in an emergency without their baggage. That should take care of concerns around food, accommodation and replacement of laptops etc.
Expensive? Yes. But cheap compared to compensation for loss of life, and nothing encourages compliance like crisp greenbacks.
Best solution IMHO is for airline staff to shove $5,000 into the hands of every passenger who disembarks in an emergency without their baggage. That should take care of concerns around food, accommodation and replacement of laptops etc.
Expensive? Yes. But cheap compared to compensation for loss of life, and nothing encourages compliance like crisp greenbacks.
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Cabin Baggage
I have travelled long haul over the last 15 years, mainly to BNE from LHR and LGW. One of my amazements is the volume, not to say weight, of the carry on baggage allowed into the cabin. Given that the aircraft are now built (mainly) by Boeing and Airbus, it cannot be impossible to standardise the depth and height of the overhead lockers and the space "under the seat in front". Having done that, a standard maximum size of carry on bag to fit the standard sizes WHICH IS ENFORCED BY ALL THE CARRIERS.
This would cover a lot of the points covered by previous posters regarding carry on baggage. If it was smaller than currently so it COULD be placed under the seat in front, evacuations should be safer since opening the overhead lockers would be avoided. If in addition it was no larger than say 30 cm square and 20cm deep it could be easily carried in one hand out of the aircraft and clutched going down the slide.
Naive points perhaps - other posters will no doubt pick holes in my suggestions but minimising the weight and size of carry on baggage must be an advantage.
This would cover a lot of the points covered by previous posters regarding carry on baggage. If it was smaller than currently so it COULD be placed under the seat in front, evacuations should be safer since opening the overhead lockers would be avoided. If in addition it was no larger than say 30 cm square and 20cm deep it could be easily carried in one hand out of the aircraft and clutched going down the slide.
Naive points perhaps - other posters will no doubt pick holes in my suggestions but minimising the weight and size of carry on baggage must be an advantage.
Paxing All Over The World
That is a very reasonable suggestion lepidus but I feel some of my lists coming on. (regulars know I like lists ...)
Unfortunately, you would need to gain the 100% agreement to both implement and enforce this from:
Unfortunately, you would need to gain the 100% agreement to both implement and enforce this from:
- Every major and medium sized airline in the world. A quick tally says that's about 75+
- Every national Aviation Authority in the world.
- Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Embraer, Tupoloev as the majors
- Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, Ltd. and Mitsubishi as the new boys on the block.
- All luggage manufacturers to change their ranges, tooling etc.
- 99% of these want to offer something 'different' to their competitors ...
- A majority (my opinion) of carriers don't like implementing the luggage rules they already say that they implement ...
- Enough pax have died
- AND It can be proved that their deaths were the fault of luggage
- FURTHER that 'innocent' pax died because others were taking hand luggage out with them and blocked both themselves AND the following pax.
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There used to be 'industry standards' developed through IATA for carry-on baggage. They were followed by the majority of airlines, IATA members or not.
However, starting in the mid-90s, competition regulators decided that having an industry standard was anti-competitve. Meaning IATA is no longer in the business of setting these types of standards. The subject cannot even be discussed.
So, those looking for standards, or even a 'maximum size', are not going to find it.
However, starting in the mid-90s, competition regulators decided that having an industry standard was anti-competitve. Meaning IATA is no longer in the business of setting these types of standards. The subject cannot even be discussed.
So, those looking for standards, or even a 'maximum size', are not going to find it.
Paxing All Over The World
I'm sure that this is not a problem and all the evacuation tests (under near laboratory conditions) have been proved correct ... 
They've removed First and reduced Biz.
Emirates fits extra 98 seats into the Airbus A380, the world's largest passenger plane | Business News | News | The Independent
They've removed First and reduced Biz.
Emirates fits extra 98 seats into the Airbus A380, the world's largest passenger plane | Business News | News | The Independent