BA Executive Club- changes

[Heathrow Harry]

It'll be a zoo and then gradually forgotten....................

[ExXB]

So how does it work with oneworld codeshares (BA metal, owc marketing)? Surely they are not going to refuse/charge for carryon that meets the marketing carriers rules, but not BAs!

What are they thinking? In some cases BA has antitrust immunity to doscuss/agree these things in connection with their joint ventures. But obviously they didn't (get agreement at least)

[Globaliser]

Originally Posted by Haven't a clue

My gripe is that when booking you are only offered the then current lowest fare. You can't opt for the "max reduced tier points" (if you see what I mean). On my regular "shuttle The difference between Q class earning 5 points and the next class N earning 10 points is only £6 which in tier point terms is excellent value.

Unfortunately, I think that with the current set-up, if you want N class (or higher within that band) when there are a valid fare and availability in G, O or Q class, you have to phone to book specifically into N class.

[Globaliser]

Originally Posted by ExXB

So how does it work with oneworld codeshares (BA metal, owc marketing)? Surely they are not going to refuse/charge for carryon that meets the marketing carriers rules, but not BAs!

Cabin baggage limits have always been by the operating airline's rules, not the marketing airline's.

[Haven't a clue]

Globaliser thanks. A phone call means an offline service fee. Hmm.

Best maybe to delay booking, and then pick another carrier? Time to sell my IAG shares, I guess.

[ExXB]

Originally Posted by Globaliser

Cabin baggage limits have always been by the operating airline's rules, not the marketing airline's.

Really? I think the US Department of Transportation disagrees with you.

See: DOT Issues Guidance on Airline Baggage Liability and Airline Responsibilities for Code-Share Flights | Holland & Knight

To paraphrase AA can not apply BA's rules on an AA marketed flight, where BA is the operating carrier, UNLESS AA discloses them in its rules tariff, contract of carriage, and website. - A statement that the 'operating carriers rules apply, without detailing any difference, is not acceptable.

All of BA's code share partners must disclose every term in which BA's rules differ from those of its code-share partners.

[Globaliser]

Originally Posted by ExXB

Really? I think the US Department of Transportation disagrees with you.

See: DOT Issues Guidance on Airline Baggage Liability and Airline Responsibilities for Code-Share Flights | Holland & Knight

Do you have anything authoritative and up-to-date on this, and which specifically refers to cabin baggage?

What strikes me is that if the DOT thinks what you imply it thinks, it is odd that six years later AA is still allowed to have generalised statements on its website saying:-

Tips for traveling on codeshare flights

• [*]

CABIN BAGGAGE: Passengers are usually permitted a free cabin baggage allowance, the limit of which may differ by airline, class, route, and/or aircraft type. It is recommended that cabin baggage be kept to a minimum. Please ask your travel agent or airline for more specific information. Refer to http://www.iata.org/bags for information and links to airline websites.

At face value, those statements say exactly what I thought they said.

[Globaliser]

Originally Posted by Haven't a clue

A phone call means an offline service fee. Hmm.

Do you have a tame travel agent that wouldn't charge you a service fee? That might be another route.

[ExXB]

Globaliser,
Sorry - has taken a little while to track this down. One of the conditions to BA/AA/et al antitrust immunity (DOT-OST-2010-7-8 Final Order) is :

(4) The code-sharing operations conducted under this authority must comply with 14 CFR Part 257 and with any amendments to the Department's regulations concerning code-share arrangements that may be adopted. Notwithstanding any provisions in the contract between the carriers, our approval here is expressly conditioned upon the requirements that the subject foreign air transportation be sold in the name of the carrier holding out such service in computer reservation systems and elsewhere; that the carrier selling such transportation (i.e., the carrier shown on the ticket) accept responsibility for the entirety of the code share journey for all obligations established in its contract of carriage with the passenger; and that the passenger liability of the operating carrier be unaffected;

This in Appendix A of Regulations.gov (Sorry, you have to download a pdf from the Dockets management site.)

This, I believe is a restatement of DOT's previous 'guidance' I referred to below.

Now, does the reference to someone else's contract of carriage (without being specific) meet this requirement? IMHO it does not.

[Globaliser]

Originally Posted by ExXB

Now, does the reference to someone else's contract of carriage (without being specific) meet this requirement? IMHO it does not.

But the important thing, surely, is what the DOT's opinion is.

We can see an established and continuing adoption of the practice that cabin baggage limitations are those set by the operating airline, and that the marketing carrier notifies customers and passengers of this by a generalised reference on the website.

We can see the DOT having been interested in certain issues connected with codeshare operations 6 years ago, and having approved this particular JB with the condition that you kindly drew attention to. The condition says nothing specifically about cabin baggage, let alone that the marketing airline's limitations apply unless expressly and specifically displaced. All the condition says is that the marketing airline must "accept responsibility" for the whole journey even if operated by other airlines; ie it can't shirk its contractual responsibilities by saying "we subcontracted this bit of your journey to someone else".

And we can presume that the DOT is not in dispute with the marketing airline about the practice of putting up a generalised statement about cabin baggage limitations being those of the operating airline. Otherwise, six years would surely have been enough for that to have been sorted out.

So it seems to me pretty clear that the DOT doesn't think there's any contravention of the requirement.

And even if, hypothetically, there were, it remains the case that the practice is that the operating airline's limitations apply.

[ExXB]

And even if, hypothetically, there were, it remains the case that the practice is that the operating airline's limitations apply.

Yet, your contract remains with the airline whose code you are booked under.

[Heathrow Harry]

you could always sue - or easier - just use another airline............

[Globaliser]

Originally Posted by ExXB

Yet, your contract remains with the airline whose code you are booked under.

The contract may be with the marketing airline, but it's for carriage on the operating airline.

If and to the extent that the contract includes specifying the cabin baggage allowance, the contract provides that your cabin baggage allowance is that of the operating airline. The marketing airline has not promised you that you will get the cabin baggage allowance which would apply if you were to fly on a flight operated by the marketing airline.

The DOT's issue seems to be whether this (if it is a contract term) and other provisions similarly incorporated by reference are made sufficiently clear by a generalised statement by the marketing airline. Nowhere can I see any hint that the DOT considered that if the marketing airline sells a flight on a different operating airline, the marketing airline must promise you the same cabin baggage allowance as would apply if you were to fly on a flight operated by the marketing airline, regardless of the operating airline's limits.

That would just be wishful thinking.

[ExXB]

Well, here's a case where the ticketing airlines baggage rules apply even on other airlines.

Emirates launches new initiative to expand Americas travel options - ArabianBusiness.com

You'd be hard pressed to get two free bags any other way on Jet Blue, Alaska Airlines, Virgin America, WestJet Airlines or Porter Airlines.

[Heathrow Harry]

report back when you've tried it and it works.............

[PAXboy]

EZY have just changed cabin luggage rules, which has the fine smack of a tilt at the likes of the topic of this thread. I put the article in the EZY thread in AA&R.