787 - most uncomfortable long-haul aircraft ever?
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787 - most uncomfortable long-haul aircraft ever?
Just returned from my first 787 economy flight across the pond with the 10 abreast seating in economy. I really can't believe how uncomfortable this aircraft is in economy.
I have never experienced such narrow seating and ridiculously thin armrests.
I have no idea what Boeing were thinking allowing 10 seats. Both myself and the lady next to me were quite thin and yet we spent the whole flight practically on top of each other. Impossible to move in your sleep without waking the person next to you and impossible to sleep in an aisle seat without being bumped repeatedly by people passing in the narrow aisles.
Given the average size of people in the USA I wonder how this seating is going down in the states! I will actively be avoiding any route using 787 from now on.
I have never experienced such narrow seating and ridiculously thin armrests.
I have no idea what Boeing were thinking allowing 10 seats. Both myself and the lady next to me were quite thin and yet we spent the whole flight practically on top of each other. Impossible to move in your sleep without waking the person next to you and impossible to sleep in an aisle seat without being bumped repeatedly by people passing in the narrow aisles.
Given the average size of people in the USA I wonder how this seating is going down in the states! I will actively be avoiding any route using 787 from now on.
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Seating is neither manufactured nor supplied by the aircraft manufacturer, in this case, Boeing. It is specified, sourced and purchased by the Airline, in accordance with relevant national legislation. Your issue is not with the aircraft, but with what the airline has done to it.
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(Sorry should have said 9 abreast above rather than 10!)
Boeing designed the plane expecting a 2-4-2 configuration to be used in economy. I realise its the airlines choice but Boeing shouldn't have agreed to squeeze that many in. It reflects badly on the Boeing and the aircraft and it was amazing just how unhappy the entire cabin was.
BA have to their credit acknowledged they have a problem with 787 seating following terrible customer review scores from their 787 flights. Its time other airlines did the same.
Boeing designed the plane expecting a 2-4-2 configuration to be used in economy. I realise its the airlines choice but Boeing shouldn't have agreed to squeeze that many in. It reflects badly on the Boeing and the aircraft and it was amazing just how unhappy the entire cabin was.
BA have to their credit acknowledged they have a problem with 787 seating following terrible customer review scores from their 787 flights. Its time other airlines did the same.
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Boeing didn't agree (or not) to anything. The aircraft is certified for a maximum number of seats and the operators are free to use any configuration they wish, provided they don't exceed the maximum (and meet other regulations)
Your issue is with the airline, not Boeing.
Not all B787 operators configure their aircraft the same as the one you were on. Use Seatguru or similar web-sites to check before you pay.
Oh, and you could pony up and sit in Business or First class if you really want a comfortable flight.
Your issue is with the airline, not Boeing.
Not all B787 operators configure their aircraft the same as the one you were on. Use Seatguru or similar web-sites to check before you pay.
Oh, and you could pony up and sit in Business or First class if you really want a comfortable flight.
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I'm at the larger end of the scale width wise and have travelled a few times in economy on the 787 in 3-3-3 config and do not have any issues with the seat, yes it could be wider but for an economy seat it's fine. Certainly no narrower than some others I've been in. I think this issue is wanting a premium seat for economy money. You only get what you pay for in life. All but one operator so far has gone(or going) to 9 abreast seating so it can't be too bad.
Last edited by BlueTui; 14th Sep 2014 at 11:35. Reason: Addition.
So let me get this straight.
The airline decides on the seating configuration, the seats themselves, the pitch and the width of the seating.
Yet if you find that uncomfortable apparently it's Boeing's fault.......
My own experience of the 787 was with Thomson in PE, and I have to say it was perfectly comfortable. There is an issue with the seats whereby if the passenger in front of you reclines their seat you have difficulty getting out, but that's an issue for the airline rather than Boeing.
The airline decides on the seating configuration, the seats themselves, the pitch and the width of the seating.
Yet if you find that uncomfortable apparently it's Boeing's fault.......
My own experience of the 787 was with Thomson in PE, and I have to say it was perfectly comfortable. There is an issue with the seats whereby if the passenger in front of you reclines their seat you have difficulty getting out, but that's an issue for the airline rather than Boeing.
The issue for Boeing is they are doing all the Tra-La-La about the 787 being the "most comfortable ever" when they full know that it is replacing, commonly, the 767, which apart from charter operators always had a 2-3-2 7-across layout, with the 787 being 3-3-3 in a 9-across layout in a cabin just inches wider than the 767.
It is quite true that airlines, not the airframe manufacturer, determine what the seating density is. It is therefore somewhat ingenuous of the manufacturer to do extensive publicity of their own (which Boeing have done) about it being "more comfortable" when they know full well that what their customers have done with it leads to it not being so.
It is quite true that airlines, not the airframe manufacturer, determine what the seating density is. It is therefore somewhat ingenuous of the manufacturer to do extensive publicity of their own (which Boeing have done) about it being "more comfortable" when they know full well that what their customers have done with it leads to it not being so.
WHBM, the 787 interior is 2.5 ft. wider than a 767.
However you are correct, Boeing designed the 787 for 8 abreast in economy - in much the same way the 777 was designed for 9 abreast. But as everyone else has noted, seating configuration is up to the operator, so long as it doesn't exceed the max rated count (which is based on the evacuation capability, not anything to do with comfort).
However you are correct, Boeing designed the 787 for 8 abreast in economy - in much the same way the 777 was designed for 9 abreast. But as everyone else has noted, seating configuration is up to the operator, so long as it doesn't exceed the max rated count (which is based on the evacuation capability, not anything to do with comfort).
Sadly, cramming as many people as possible in seems to be the way the industry is going.
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Sadly, cramming as many people as possible in seems to be the way the industry is going.
Add to that the fierce competition, the advent of the internet that has made price comparison easy....
And the fact that there are only so many costs you can cut in the airline industry....
Paxing All Over The World
In their advertising, I suspect Boeing would say they are talking about the air filtering and humidity, which are different to the previous generations.
(Not yet been on the 787 and not bothered)
(Not yet been on the 787 and not bothered)
Ah the old blame the manufacturer not the airline card. Sometimes the manufacturer does have to take some of the responsibility of course. But it always pays to do a little research before throwing criticism around. Let me give an example, slightly off-topic maybe but....
Several years ago I was employed as one of several contractors by an IFE manufacturer. They had recently introduced an new system and it was experiencing a higher than anticipated number of software failures. Our job was to monitor the IFE system in flight, recording all failures for fault trend analysis, and assist the cabin crew with re-setting any failed units where possible. This inevitably led to interaction with the passengers and of course we attempted to portray both the IFE manufacturer and the airline in the best possible light.
On a trip from New York to Paris my usual polite and helpful demeanor was tested beyond breaking point by one particularly "demanding" passenger.
In all fairness to the lady in question her seat was been quite troublesome. I had reset it three times and still had not been able to restore it to full functionality. She could watch movies, listen to the "radio" and see the Airshow map display, but could not load and play games.
Unfortunately the flight was full and there were no empty seats to which the crew could move her, not in economy anyway.
Software resets were done remotely from a terminal at the Pursers station so I had not actually met the lady. I had been informed of her difficulties via the cabin interphone and had noted the fault symptoms and re-set her seat accordingly. After the meal service was finished I was asked by the Purser to go back and check the seat and see if there was anything else I could do, as the passenger was by now giving the cabin crew a very hard time.
I set off for the back of the aircraft secure in the knowledge that there was very little chance of me been able to get the seat working correctly. We carried no spare parts as we could not legally change any components in flight. Software re-sets were pretty much the limit of our powers or, in extreme cases if a widespread failure occurred, maybe cycling a circuit breaker having first discussed it with the Captain and obtaining their permission.
Anyway I introduced myself to the passenger and asked if I could check the system out for her. Having confirmed that the symptoms were as described I explained to her that I had done all I could and that every time we re-set the seat there was a possibility that it would degrade further. I sympathized with her and suggested that, rather than risk losing the system at her seat altogether, maybe it would be better to watch a movie and accept that the games were not available.
She declined, quite forcefully.
With a heavy heart and a sense of foreboding I made my way back to the front of the aircraft and re-set her seats software for the fourth time. It took about a minute for a seat box re-set to run it's course and I had returned to her seat by the time it finished. This time the Purser accompanied me, I would like to think for moral support, but more likely to smooth things over with the passenger if required.
Anyway the re-set did not finish well.
Now, rather than been able to watch the movies, or listen to some music or see where exactly we were over the Atlantic, the passenger could do nothing with the IFE system. The Welcome screen was staring her mockingly in the face. Promising all sorts of entertainment possibilities, a veritable cornucopia of In Flight delight you could say, and absolutely refusing to respond to any kind of control inputs. Nothing, nada, zip.
I looked at the lady, keeping my "I told you so" look carefully suppressed, and apologetically informed her that there was nothing else I could do.
She let rip.
Time and distance preclude me from quoting her verbatim but it went something like this:-
"Goddammit, I knew I should have flown with an American airline. If this is what Europeans think is acceptable I should have stayed at home. The goddamn games don't work, the seat is uncomfortable, the airplane is noisy and the meal was lousy. I thought French food was meant to be good." (the airline in question was indeed Air France).
"If this is what Europe is like it's going to be goddamn long 2 weeks. I should have stayed in the states, at least things work there!"
On every flight I was very aware that the Air France crew would report any inappropriate response or actions I made, and that my continuing employment on the contract was at risk if I lost my cool with passengers. So I took a deep breath and replied as follows:-
"Madam, once again I apologize on behalf of Rockwell Collins. We are doing everything we can to improve the IFE system, although I realize that is of little consolation to you at the moment. I have done everything in my power to help you and I'm sorry that I couldn't get the system working to your satisfaction"
I probably should have left it at that but.......
"And as for your other complaints, the aircraft is a Boeing 777, that's an american aeroplane. The engines which you find so noisy are made by General Electric, an american company. The seat you are sitting in is made by B/E Aerospace, that's an american company. The IFE system is made by an american company. And the meal, well that was on-loaded in JFK not Paris, therefore it was prepared by an american company using, I suspect, american produce. I do hope that your holiday improves and Europe is not too much of a disappointment to you."
I left at that point, without a backward glance.
A few minutes later I was standing in the business class galley having a coffee and in walks the Purser, with a huge grin from ear to ear.
It appeared that I had just said what had been on the mind of every crew member in the cabin, but they of course could not say it.
I left the aircraft in Paris with 2 bottles of wine and several hugs and kisses from the cabin crew. Some days you just have to love your job.
Several years ago I was employed as one of several contractors by an IFE manufacturer. They had recently introduced an new system and it was experiencing a higher than anticipated number of software failures. Our job was to monitor the IFE system in flight, recording all failures for fault trend analysis, and assist the cabin crew with re-setting any failed units where possible. This inevitably led to interaction with the passengers and of course we attempted to portray both the IFE manufacturer and the airline in the best possible light.
On a trip from New York to Paris my usual polite and helpful demeanor was tested beyond breaking point by one particularly "demanding" passenger.
In all fairness to the lady in question her seat was been quite troublesome. I had reset it three times and still had not been able to restore it to full functionality. She could watch movies, listen to the "radio" and see the Airshow map display, but could not load and play games.
Unfortunately the flight was full and there were no empty seats to which the crew could move her, not in economy anyway.
Software resets were done remotely from a terminal at the Pursers station so I had not actually met the lady. I had been informed of her difficulties via the cabin interphone and had noted the fault symptoms and re-set her seat accordingly. After the meal service was finished I was asked by the Purser to go back and check the seat and see if there was anything else I could do, as the passenger was by now giving the cabin crew a very hard time.
I set off for the back of the aircraft secure in the knowledge that there was very little chance of me been able to get the seat working correctly. We carried no spare parts as we could not legally change any components in flight. Software re-sets were pretty much the limit of our powers or, in extreme cases if a widespread failure occurred, maybe cycling a circuit breaker having first discussed it with the Captain and obtaining their permission.
Anyway I introduced myself to the passenger and asked if I could check the system out for her. Having confirmed that the symptoms were as described I explained to her that I had done all I could and that every time we re-set the seat there was a possibility that it would degrade further. I sympathized with her and suggested that, rather than risk losing the system at her seat altogether, maybe it would be better to watch a movie and accept that the games were not available.
She declined, quite forcefully.
With a heavy heart and a sense of foreboding I made my way back to the front of the aircraft and re-set her seats software for the fourth time. It took about a minute for a seat box re-set to run it's course and I had returned to her seat by the time it finished. This time the Purser accompanied me, I would like to think for moral support, but more likely to smooth things over with the passenger if required.
Anyway the re-set did not finish well.
Now, rather than been able to watch the movies, or listen to some music or see where exactly we were over the Atlantic, the passenger could do nothing with the IFE system. The Welcome screen was staring her mockingly in the face. Promising all sorts of entertainment possibilities, a veritable cornucopia of In Flight delight you could say, and absolutely refusing to respond to any kind of control inputs. Nothing, nada, zip.
I looked at the lady, keeping my "I told you so" look carefully suppressed, and apologetically informed her that there was nothing else I could do.
She let rip.
Time and distance preclude me from quoting her verbatim but it went something like this:-
"Goddammit, I knew I should have flown with an American airline. If this is what Europeans think is acceptable I should have stayed at home. The goddamn games don't work, the seat is uncomfortable, the airplane is noisy and the meal was lousy. I thought French food was meant to be good." (the airline in question was indeed Air France).
"If this is what Europe is like it's going to be goddamn long 2 weeks. I should have stayed in the states, at least things work there!"
On every flight I was very aware that the Air France crew would report any inappropriate response or actions I made, and that my continuing employment on the contract was at risk if I lost my cool with passengers. So I took a deep breath and replied as follows:-
"Madam, once again I apologize on behalf of Rockwell Collins. We are doing everything we can to improve the IFE system, although I realize that is of little consolation to you at the moment. I have done everything in my power to help you and I'm sorry that I couldn't get the system working to your satisfaction"
I probably should have left it at that but.......
"And as for your other complaints, the aircraft is a Boeing 777, that's an american aeroplane. The engines which you find so noisy are made by General Electric, an american company. The seat you are sitting in is made by B/E Aerospace, that's an american company. The IFE system is made by an american company. And the meal, well that was on-loaded in JFK not Paris, therefore it was prepared by an american company using, I suspect, american produce. I do hope that your holiday improves and Europe is not too much of a disappointment to you."
I left at that point, without a backward glance.
A few minutes later I was standing in the business class galley having a coffee and in walks the Purser, with a huge grin from ear to ear.
It appeared that I had just said what had been on the mind of every crew member in the cabin, but they of course could not say it.
I left the aircraft in Paris with 2 bottles of wine and several hugs and kisses from the cabin crew. Some days you just have to love your job.
Last edited by Avionker; 17th Sep 2014 at 12:50. Reason: Spelling...
Paxing All Over The World
Thanks Avionker, for taking the time to write that story out in full - a great story with many illustrations for people at every level in the airline world.
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on a trip from new york to paris, all that was available to eat were cold sandwiches, lukewarm coffee, a little water. bathroom unavailable. no in flight entertainment except my own imagination. poor visibility meant nothing worthwhile to see except an odd iceberg.
seat was uncomfortable, would not recline. felt like a cheap whicker basket.
cost to transport my luggage was too high, didn't even take a toothbrush.
noise from engine was deafening, had to put cotton in my ears for the whole flight.
heater didn't work
was lucky enough not to have aisle seat.
WE did arrive ahead of schedule, though massive traffic jam at airport. Cleared customs with no problem.
Decided to take ship back to the USA. Treated like a king aboard ship!
C.A.L
seat was uncomfortable, would not recline. felt like a cheap whicker basket.
cost to transport my luggage was too high, didn't even take a toothbrush.
noise from engine was deafening, had to put cotton in my ears for the whole flight.
heater didn't work
was lucky enough not to have aisle seat.
WE did arrive ahead of schedule, though massive traffic jam at airport. Cleared customs with no problem.
Decided to take ship back to the USA. Treated like a king aboard ship!
C.A.L