Sorry, you're too late...
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Unfortunately, every Customer Opinion survey carried out by airlines over the last 30 years has highlighted "Punctuality" as the number one priority.
1. To ensure a punctual arrival, the airline must ensure a punctual
departure.
2. To ensure a punctual departure, the airline must have a punctual push-back.
3. To ensure a punctual push back, we must have punctual door closure.
4. To ensure a punctual door closure, we must ensure punctual load sheet production.
5. To ensure punctual load sheet production, we must ensure punctual check-in closure.
To hold an aircraft on stand at LGW beyond 7 minutes can result in a 2 hour delay awaiting a new slot, at a penalty cost to the airline of £300 per minute for a 737 sized aircraft. Against this, is it reasonable to expect any airline afford to hold for late running passengers?
Basic really, but unfortunate for the late passenger!
1. To ensure a punctual arrival, the airline must ensure a punctual
departure.
2. To ensure a punctual departure, the airline must have a punctual push-back.
3. To ensure a punctual push back, we must have punctual door closure.
4. To ensure a punctual door closure, we must ensure punctual load sheet production.
5. To ensure punctual load sheet production, we must ensure punctual check-in closure.
To hold an aircraft on stand at LGW beyond 7 minutes can result in a 2 hour delay awaiting a new slot, at a penalty cost to the airline of £300 per minute for a 737 sized aircraft. Against this, is it reasonable to expect any airline afford to hold for late running passengers?
Basic really, but unfortunate for the late passenger!
Dir. PPRuNe Line Service
It's not always the fault of the passenger. Case in point :
A couple of weeks ago I was flying to Heathrow from Frankfurt. Flight departed at 1330, checkin by 1230.
I arrived shortly after 1000 as I wanted to get a bite to eat and do some work, so I joined the rather long Lufthansa queue at 1005. I didn't get checked in until 1250. The checkin for my flight actually closed at 1300 so I did make it.
For some strange reason, that normally full flight was almost empty.
A couple of weeks ago I was flying to Heathrow from Frankfurt. Flight departed at 1330, checkin by 1230.
I arrived shortly after 1000 as I wanted to get a bite to eat and do some work, so I joined the rather long Lufthansa queue at 1005. I didn't get checked in until 1250. The checkin for my flight actually closed at 1300 so I did make it.
For some strange reason, that normally full flight was almost empty.
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Bealine's got it in one. There was a time when airlines could easily rush passengers to the gate, for the most part those days are long past, what with security and slots etc.
We also have the problem of inconsiderate passengers who bear no thought for their travelling companions( I'm not suggesting you are Little Chief) but, I've known late passengers who have been checked in after closure, told to 'run' to the gate or they'll miss it, yet still find time time to rush through the Duty/Tax Free, stand at the sales desk get their purchase, and stroll to the gate only to delay the flight.
In truth it isn't the check in staff you should asking, it's the other passengers who run the risk of a missed slot and the subsequent delay.
Perhaps we need an article explaining all this in the In Flight mag SectorBabe.
We also have the problem of inconsiderate passengers who bear no thought for their travelling companions( I'm not suggesting you are Little Chief) but, I've known late passengers who have been checked in after closure, told to 'run' to the gate or they'll miss it, yet still find time time to rush through the Duty/Tax Free, stand at the sales desk get their purchase, and stroll to the gate only to delay the flight.
In truth it isn't the check in staff you should asking, it's the other passengers who run the risk of a missed slot and the subsequent delay.
Perhaps we need an article explaining all this in the In Flight mag SectorBabe.
PPRuNette
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And really...if a few thousand other people can do it...surely you can too 
Why bend the rules/regs or, hey, even the protocol for anyone?
It's all there for reasons, and check-in staff, regardless of how customer focused, should never be the ones to make such decisions.
Otherwise, why would there be load controllers
I think the general consensus is to arrive well within the scheduled departure time of your flight. If you are a business traveller, and that reliant upon a high level of service, by way of resources which allow for the flexability you seek, then perhaps it's time to re-think your choice of carrier, and be prepared to dig into your pocket a little deeper
Regards
GG
Why bend the rules/regs or, hey, even the protocol for anyone?
It's all there for reasons, and check-in staff, regardless of how customer focused, should never be the ones to make such decisions.
Otherwise, why would there be load controllers
I think the general consensus is to arrive well within the scheduled departure time of your flight. If you are a business traveller, and that reliant upon a high level of service, by way of resources which allow for the flexability you seek, then perhaps it's time to re-think your choice of carrier, and be prepared to dig into your pocket a little deeper
Regards
GG
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Checked In on time? You can still be 'too late'.
At least one of the major US airlines (Delta) used to sell or reallocate the seats of passengers who didn't turn up at the gate within 15 minutes of departure (irrespective of whether boarding had been actually been completed).
They also used to fly with the resulting unaccompanied luggage, rather than take it off.
SO; Read your terms and conditions very carefully! Including clauses about punctuality at the gate. Anything displayed or not displayed on the airport info screens is immaterial. The gate clause allows them to give your seat away even if the info screens have not shown your flight to be 'boarding'.
At least one of the major US airlines (Delta) used to sell or reallocate the seats of passengers who didn't turn up at the gate within 15 minutes of departure (irrespective of whether boarding had been actually been completed).
They also used to fly with the resulting unaccompanied luggage, rather than take it off.
SO; Read your terms and conditions very carefully! Including clauses about punctuality at the gate. Anything displayed or not displayed on the airport info screens is immaterial. The gate clause allows them to give your seat away even if the info screens have not shown your flight to be 'boarding'.
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I work for a low cost airline at Stansted as a Check In agent. I hope in my post to explain the "no you are too late" problem, offering an insight for those unfortunate enough to have experienced this problem. My points are made in no particular order:
1) The "Captains decision" as was talked about no doubt refers to the "loadsheet". This is legal document that the Captain must sign to certify that the aircraft has been loaded properly. Its compilation takes time and the information required for it is basically the unladen weight of the aircraft, the weight of the passengers, baggage, crew and cargo. These are added up produce the ZFW (zero fuel weight) for the flight. Based on the ZFW the exact fuel load is calculated (a heavier aircraft needs more fuel to fly the same distance as one that is lighter). The loadsheet also instructs the baggage handlers as to how many bags/cargo to put into each hold. It is vitally important that the load is spread equally so as to keep the aircraft in "trim", as if it is not the aircraft will not handle properly (serious safety issue). As you can see from the explanation the loadsheet is a quite complicated issue, hence time is required to do it and then take the associated actions. Information from the loadsheet is then used to calculate performance figures for the flight - ie take speeds and distances. So as you can see the loadsheet cant be completed until check in has been closed, and if check in is then re-opened the whole procedure must be redone, which equals delay and associated costs to airline and many passengers, not just the one person who is late at check in.
2) There is the issue of the time it takes to get from check in to the departure gate. This is due to the time it takes to get through security and at Stansted to then get on the train to the gates.
3) The point made about the Italian gentlemen with I believe it was LH who was stuck in a que, in my opinion, is poor practise by the airline concerned. With the airline I work for in the minutes leading up to closure of check in one of our supervisors will scour the que for any last passengers and bring them to the front, just like BA does at Heathrow.
4) As intimated at para 1, an airline has to draw a line in the sand after which it will no longer except any more passengers, whatever type of airline it is. Even if this was 10 mins before departure there would always be a time when someone turns up 8 minutes before and expects to still get on!
5) Passengers do have to take some responsibility for getting to the airport on time. Travel information is available from many sources to aid in planning journey time.
6) The issue regarding "take you bags and run to the gate" is a contentious one at the moment, following events last September. In airline speak these people are called LMC (last minute change) or HAG (have a go). Many airlines no longer allow this I believe as (please correct if I am wrong), some of those involved in 9/11 atrocities got onto the aircraft as LMC/HAG, taking advantage of the fact that because of the rushed nature of this procedure security would not have been handled so tightly in their case.
I hope this points go someway to explaining the situation thoroghly, would be great if a Pilot could elaborate on the "loadsheet/Captains decision" bit perhaps. Finally whenever you travel by air always check the terms & conditions, particularly check in time, baggage allowances, and allow plenty of time to get to the airport, park, find your check in area, que, check in, clear security and get to the gate.
1) The "Captains decision" as was talked about no doubt refers to the "loadsheet". This is legal document that the Captain must sign to certify that the aircraft has been loaded properly. Its compilation takes time and the information required for it is basically the unladen weight of the aircraft, the weight of the passengers, baggage, crew and cargo. These are added up produce the ZFW (zero fuel weight) for the flight. Based on the ZFW the exact fuel load is calculated (a heavier aircraft needs more fuel to fly the same distance as one that is lighter). The loadsheet also instructs the baggage handlers as to how many bags/cargo to put into each hold. It is vitally important that the load is spread equally so as to keep the aircraft in "trim", as if it is not the aircraft will not handle properly (serious safety issue). As you can see from the explanation the loadsheet is a quite complicated issue, hence time is required to do it and then take the associated actions. Information from the loadsheet is then used to calculate performance figures for the flight - ie take speeds and distances. So as you can see the loadsheet cant be completed until check in has been closed, and if check in is then re-opened the whole procedure must be redone, which equals delay and associated costs to airline and many passengers, not just the one person who is late at check in.
2) There is the issue of the time it takes to get from check in to the departure gate. This is due to the time it takes to get through security and at Stansted to then get on the train to the gates.
3) The point made about the Italian gentlemen with I believe it was LH who was stuck in a que, in my opinion, is poor practise by the airline concerned. With the airline I work for in the minutes leading up to closure of check in one of our supervisors will scour the que for any last passengers and bring them to the front, just like BA does at Heathrow.
4) As intimated at para 1, an airline has to draw a line in the sand after which it will no longer except any more passengers, whatever type of airline it is. Even if this was 10 mins before departure there would always be a time when someone turns up 8 minutes before and expects to still get on!
5) Passengers do have to take some responsibility for getting to the airport on time. Travel information is available from many sources to aid in planning journey time.
6) The issue regarding "take you bags and run to the gate" is a contentious one at the moment, following events last September. In airline speak these people are called LMC (last minute change) or HAG (have a go). Many airlines no longer allow this I believe as (please correct if I am wrong), some of those involved in 9/11 atrocities got onto the aircraft as LMC/HAG, taking advantage of the fact that because of the rushed nature of this procedure security would not have been handled so tightly in their case.
I hope this points go someway to explaining the situation thoroghly, would be great if a Pilot could elaborate on the "loadsheet/Captains decision" bit perhaps. Finally whenever you travel by air always check the terms & conditions, particularly check in time, baggage allowances, and allow plenty of time to get to the airport, park, find your check in area, que, check in, clear security and get to the gate.
Last edited by timzsta; 5th Jun 2002 at 21:24.
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A pilot's view
timzsta
What you say is very true.
From the flight deck, when you have been given the loadsheet, normally after the last pax has boarded, you are minutes away from departure. It is, very literally, the last piece of the puzzle which must be signed to allow the aircraft to depart the stand and legally fly.
Anyone pitching up after this creates no end of problems if they were to be accepted fot the flight. Firstly the time issue. Is it right to delay hundreds of people purely because someone couldn't make it to check in on time? - FOR WHATEVER REASON!.
Missing a slot in Summer at some of the busier London airports can spell disaster for the airline. Potentially hours of delay, not only for that flight but also for all subsequent trips with that airframe. The likelihood that the operating crew, possibly on their 3rd or 4th sector that day, will now run out of legal duty hours and force the call out of a replacement crew. At worst it could cause the cancellation of a later flight on that line of flying - all because of 1 or 2 people who cannot see past their own personal needs.
Comments we have all seen on popular TV shows like '...but the aircraft is still on the stand just waiting......" show nothing but a complete, and sadly often deliberate, misunderstanding of even the basics of mounting a public transport operation (whether it be busses, trains or aircraft).
Believe me, we want to take ALL pax booked on any flight. We will all bend over backwards to accomodate them but, there comes a point beyond which we cannot reasonably go so, dear Pax, please don't ask us to.
What you say is very true.
From the flight deck, when you have been given the loadsheet, normally after the last pax has boarded, you are minutes away from departure. It is, very literally, the last piece of the puzzle which must be signed to allow the aircraft to depart the stand and legally fly.
Anyone pitching up after this creates no end of problems if they were to be accepted fot the flight. Firstly the time issue. Is it right to delay hundreds of people purely because someone couldn't make it to check in on time? - FOR WHATEVER REASON!.
Missing a slot in Summer at some of the busier London airports can spell disaster for the airline. Potentially hours of delay, not only for that flight but also for all subsequent trips with that airframe. The likelihood that the operating crew, possibly on their 3rd or 4th sector that day, will now run out of legal duty hours and force the call out of a replacement crew. At worst it could cause the cancellation of a later flight on that line of flying - all because of 1 or 2 people who cannot see past their own personal needs.
Comments we have all seen on popular TV shows like '...but the aircraft is still on the stand just waiting......" show nothing but a complete, and sadly often deliberate, misunderstanding of even the basics of mounting a public transport operation (whether it be busses, trains or aircraft).
Believe me, we want to take ALL pax booked on any flight. We will all bend over backwards to accomodate them but, there comes a point beyond which we cannot reasonably go so, dear Pax, please don't ask us to.
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I would just like to add that it is quite common at the airline and base that I work for, that even though a passenger checks in before the cut off time, and even though the bag successfully makes it into the hold, the passenger themselves doesn't get to the aircraft in time.
So, for security reasons, Loaders then have to get all the bags out of the hold and locate the bags associated with the missing passenger. Result? Delays at best, missed slot at worst.
My involvement in this process is strictly to get the aircraft moving with the minimum delay. Theres no point scoring - if the passenger turns up before the loaders find their bag, then they travel. If they find the bag first, we're gone...
And this is what happens when people check in
on time. If you're late, unless the terminal is very small and unbusy, you're on a no hoper.
CPB
So, for security reasons, Loaders then have to get all the bags out of the hold and locate the bags associated with the missing passenger. Result? Delays at best, missed slot at worst.
My involvement in this process is strictly to get the aircraft moving with the minimum delay. Theres no point scoring - if the passenger turns up before the loaders find their bag, then they travel. If they find the bag first, we're gone...
And this is what happens when people check in
on time. If you're late, unless the terminal is very small and unbusy, you're on a no hoper.
CPB
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I recently travelled in Australia and flew on Virgin Blue a couple of times. I consider this the low cost option over there.
Firstly, check in closed just 15 minutes before departure - and the impression given was that they would go out of their way to get you on board even after that - sure there are a lot of other factors, but it seemed no big deal over there - so why in the UK?
Secondly, one particular passenger (whom I assumed had checked in already) didn't turn up for boarding - there was some 20 minutes of calling for the passenger who still didn't arrive. Everyone was running round desparately trying to find out where he was. Credit to the staff who were going out of their way to track them down, right until the latest minute possible - but I bet that wouldn' t happen over here.
Thirdly, another flight I was checked in for was delayed. I was allowed to transfer to another flight to the same destination in order to make a connection at my destination. My luggage was already on board the original aircraft - and the alternative flight was already boarding - yet it seemed to be no big deal to make the new arrangements. How is it that this can be managed in oz, and yet over here everything is so much more difficult?
Is this down to a more regulated operation in the UK, or just that we like to make things more difficult? The airport in question was Sydney - not particularly quiet, and the aircraft were all full.
Firstly, check in closed just 15 minutes before departure - and the impression given was that they would go out of their way to get you on board even after that - sure there are a lot of other factors, but it seemed no big deal over there - so why in the UK?
Secondly, one particular passenger (whom I assumed had checked in already) didn't turn up for boarding - there was some 20 minutes of calling for the passenger who still didn't arrive. Everyone was running round desparately trying to find out where he was. Credit to the staff who were going out of their way to track them down, right until the latest minute possible - but I bet that wouldn' t happen over here.
Thirdly, another flight I was checked in for was delayed. I was allowed to transfer to another flight to the same destination in order to make a connection at my destination. My luggage was already on board the original aircraft - and the alternative flight was already boarding - yet it seemed to be no big deal to make the new arrangements. How is it that this can be managed in oz, and yet over here everything is so much more difficult?
Is this down to a more regulated operation in the UK, or just that we like to make things more difficult? The airport in question was Sydney - not particularly quiet, and the aircraft were all full.
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I hate to say it but:
(a) Australia has, so far, been kept well clear of terrorist activity and
(b) Virgin Blue is a new, naive airline without much experience
Please remember, Mohammed Atta (the pilot of one of the World Trade Centre airliners) was a Business Class passenger accepted after flight closure! (You can just imagine him saying "I must have an aisle seat near the front!")
Unfortunately for the majority of our passengers, that is the reality of the situation and why all airlines must continually be on guard - particularly as regards late "runners"!
(a) Australia has, so far, been kept well clear of terrorist activity and
(b) Virgin Blue is a new, naive airline without much experience
Please remember, Mohammed Atta (the pilot of one of the World Trade Centre airliners) was a Business Class passenger accepted after flight closure! (You can just imagine him saying "I must have an aisle seat near the front!")
Unfortunately for the majority of our passengers, that is the reality of the situation and why all airlines must continually be on guard - particularly as regards late "runners"!
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As a 'Business person' - referred to in this forum thread , with more than a fair connection to aviation and someone who flys a hell of a lot
I knew most of this and thanks for explaining the rest.
I've done the T1 LHR Aer Lingus HAG from checkin to Gate 90 and hold the Friday evening record ;-)
BUT if I didn't make it in time I'd know that the chance had at least been offered.
This is one of the reasons, I believe why gate staff have communications equipment - to let you know we're coming.
Now I know also that I wouldn't expect anything with bags to check in.
Nothing wrong with letting people try.
AND most furious , furious thing of all - racing to check in for an 0650 flight from Ireland/UK to the continent running all the way
'Check in Closing' sounding on the PA
Get your seat,sit down
Captain comes on tannoy
' Sorry we have a 40 minute ATC Eurocontrol delay'
It works both ways folks.
I knew most of this and thanks for explaining the rest.
I've done the T1 LHR Aer Lingus HAG from checkin to Gate 90 and hold the Friday evening record ;-)
BUT if I didn't make it in time I'd know that the chance had at least been offered.
This is one of the reasons, I believe why gate staff have communications equipment - to let you know we're coming.
Now I know also that I wouldn't expect anything with bags to check in.
Nothing wrong with letting people try.
AND most furious , furious thing of all - racing to check in for an 0650 flight from Ireland/UK to the continent running all the way
'Check in Closing' sounding on the PA
Get your seat,sit down
Captain comes on tannoy
' Sorry we have a 40 minute ATC Eurocontrol delay'
It works both ways folks.
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DistantRumble
It has been said many times before, but I'll say it again just on the off-chance that the message gets home.
A flight may have a slot issued by Eurocontrol but that can change at a moments notice. The message can come suddenly to say your slot is 10 mins from now. In this case you must be ready to push back, start engines and GO - no delay. If you miss this new slot you could face hours of further delays.
Therefore the only place to be is on the aircraft, doors closed with tug attached and wait. There is no time to load any pax after the improvement has been received which is why we put you on board and close the gate. We don't do this for fun.
Don't tell me it works both ways.......because it does not!
It has been said many times before, but I'll say it again just on the off-chance that the message gets home.
A flight may have a slot issued by Eurocontrol but that can change at a moments notice. The message can come suddenly to say your slot is 10 mins from now. In this case you must be ready to push back, start engines and GO - no delay. If you miss this new slot you could face hours of further delays.
Therefore the only place to be is on the aircraft, doors closed with tug attached and wait. There is no time to load any pax after the improvement has been received which is why we put you on board and close the gate. We don't do this for fun.
Don't tell me it works both ways.......because it does not!
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Flaps One is exactly right. Let us imagine the situation. 757 at Heathrow Terminal 1. 170 passengers on board, going to, say Frankfurt on a morning service. Lots of businessmen and women with important meetings to go to, big money riding on them.
Captain makes an announcement along the lines of this:
"Ladies and Gentlemen, we originally had a 40 minute ATC Eurocontrol delay. I was offered a slot in 5 minutes from now but I have turned it down to allow Mr Smith to make the flight, who just phoned us to say he is stuck in traffic on the Heathrow spur, and should be here in around 25 minutes."
Aircraft arrives in Frankfurt 25 minutes late. Many passengers miss their meetings, lose their contract. Not just this flight but all flights operated by that aircraft for the rest of the day. All these passengers claim compensation from airline for delay. Said airline would be bust in no time.
Get to check in on time, thousands manage it each day.
Captain makes an announcement along the lines of this:
"Ladies and Gentlemen, we originally had a 40 minute ATC Eurocontrol delay. I was offered a slot in 5 minutes from now but I have turned it down to allow Mr Smith to make the flight, who just phoned us to say he is stuck in traffic on the Heathrow spur, and should be here in around 25 minutes."
Aircraft arrives in Frankfurt 25 minutes late. Many passengers miss their meetings, lose their contract. Not just this flight but all flights operated by that aircraft for the rest of the day. All these passengers claim compensation from airline for delay. Said airline would be bust in no time.
Get to check in on time, thousands manage it each day.
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lads...
I know ... but knowing it does not stop it making me furious and feeling the worst kind of SLF when it happens.
Withdrawing the airbridge and shutting the doors only takes a minute.
[ and yes the ground handler might be needed somewhere else since effectively that flight has departed... blah blah blah]
What everyone seems to be saying is that there is no slack in the system to deal with SLF.
And anyway, with what the previous poster said, It's normally over 25 minutes late anyway.
Dublin to heathrow (same for BMI or Aer Lingus)
2/3 minutes delay boarding last passenger
av. 10 minutes (being generous ) for slot and pushback
av 5 minutes for takeoff (all those early birds off )
av. 6-8 mins in the hold over OCK/LAM or wherever
av 4 (at least) extra mins taxiing from 27L ( why do I always get 27L ) to T1 Paddygates
av. 1/2 mins waiting for ground handler to steer gate in
Add it up.
These are all usuals. Everyone is trying though, but it all adds up.
When I get into the Heathrow T1 Arrivals I walk downstairs get on the lift and get the train to Paddington. 17 mins later I'm there. It's never been late yet. And look, the passengers load themselves too.
From experience when I have to fly I never schedule a meeting at the other end that doesn't have at least 2 hours slack or can be rescheduled
Why ... because I'm flying
I know ... but knowing it does not stop it making me furious and feeling the worst kind of SLF when it happens.
Withdrawing the airbridge and shutting the doors only takes a minute.
[ and yes the ground handler might be needed somewhere else since effectively that flight has departed... blah blah blah]
What everyone seems to be saying is that there is no slack in the system to deal with SLF.
And anyway, with what the previous poster said, It's normally over 25 minutes late anyway.
Dublin to heathrow (same for BMI or Aer Lingus)
2/3 minutes delay boarding last passenger
av. 10 minutes (being generous ) for slot and pushback
av 5 minutes for takeoff (all those early birds off )
av. 6-8 mins in the hold over OCK/LAM or wherever
av 4 (at least) extra mins taxiing from 27L ( why do I always get 27L ) to T1 Paddygates
av. 1/2 mins waiting for ground handler to steer gate in
Add it up.
These are all usuals. Everyone is trying though, but it all adds up.
When I get into the Heathrow T1 Arrivals I walk downstairs get on the lift and get the train to Paddington. 17 mins later I'm there. It's never been late yet. And look, the passengers load themselves too.
From experience when I have to fly I never schedule a meeting at the other end that doesn't have at least 2 hours slack or can be rescheduled
Why ... because I'm flying
Paxing All Over The World
DistantRumble,
With ref to the Heathrow Shuttle and the fact that it always leaves on time. That's because:
1) There is no airbridge to withdraw and secure.
2) No hermetically sealed door to be closed in the correct way or else the train cannot move an inch.
3) No reporting of these events to other people via radio or telephone.
4) No tug or chocks.
5) No ground walker to assist during push-back.
6) No engines to start.
7) No taxi.
etcetera.
When the time for departure arrives, the train operator (not a driver as it is automated) looks along the platform and pushes the button to close the doors. If someone is caught in the doors, they half open them and close again.
They then push a button and the train departs on a dedicated track where the previous departure was 15 minutes earlier. OF COURSE it leaves on time!
OF COURSE it's frustrating to get on board and get a delay but that delay has not been generated by the flight and cabin crew.
With ref to the Heathrow Shuttle and the fact that it always leaves on time. That's because:
1) There is no airbridge to withdraw and secure.
2) No hermetically sealed door to be closed in the correct way or else the train cannot move an inch.
3) No reporting of these events to other people via radio or telephone.
4) No tug or chocks.
5) No ground walker to assist during push-back.
6) No engines to start.
7) No taxi.
etcetera.
When the time for departure arrives, the train operator (not a driver as it is automated) looks along the platform and pushes the button to close the doors. If someone is caught in the doors, they half open them and close again.
They then push a button and the train departs on a dedicated track where the previous departure was 15 minutes earlier. OF COURSE it leaves on time!
OF COURSE it's frustrating to get on board and get a delay but that delay has not been generated by the flight and cabin crew.
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Thanks PAxBoy
but your reply is only bolstering my argument.
You lay out a lot of points there about HEx and my answer to every one of them is
"It was designed not to need them"
or has a safety system already built in that is better and more reliable than the one you mention, therefore either eliminating causes of delay or making them predictable ones that can be factored into the timetable.
But I'm kind of destroying my own original argument, because HEx won't wait for me !
!But! there's another one along in 15 or 20 mins and my boarding card can be purchased on the train itself ( for a little extra ) Try doing that on an airline. (yes I know about weights etc etc blah blah bore dangerous snooze )
but your reply is only bolstering my argument.
You lay out a lot of points there about HEx and my answer to every one of them is
"It was designed not to need them"
or has a safety system already built in that is better and more reliable than the one you mention, therefore either eliminating causes of delay or making them predictable ones that can be factored into the timetable.
But I'm kind of destroying my own original argument, because HEx won't wait for me !
!But! there's another one along in 15 or 20 mins and my boarding card can be purchased on the train itself ( for a little extra ) Try doing that on an airline. (yes I know about weights etc etc blah blah bore dangerous snooze )
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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And anyway, Paxboy, when did I say the flight crew caused the delays ? I don't think I ever wrote that .
The main point of my contributions to this thread is to ask /plead for a two way thing and point out that the ENTIRE system contributes delays that add up to a hell of a lot more than anything that passengers create.
Flexibility is everything.
The main point of my contributions to this thread is to ask /plead for a two way thing and point out that the ENTIRE system contributes delays that add up to a hell of a lot more than anything that passengers create.
Flexibility is everything.
Paxing All Over The World
Hi DR,
No, I did not suggest that you suggested that flight and cabin crew contributed to delays - but you commented that you took it out on them, through very PAXey kind of behaviour!
I think it true to say that the crux is that the airline 'system' (for want of better word) as operated in Europe, is not just out of capacity but totally swamped.
I recall an occasion at LHR on 5th Nov 1997 (Guy Fawkes was totally washed out) when a VS machine had a problem with undercarriage on arrival. It was expected but the machine blocked the southern runway from about 15:00 that day.
The back log of aircraft spilled over into the next day. Then into the next day, because machines were in the wrong place. I was going to Paris that night (5th) and was severly delayed.
It made me realise how very serious the situation is - one runway out of action for less than 24 hours and the effects were felt for three days.
I realise that this drifts rather from the points that you were making and the two way break that you are seeking. But because there is zero spare capacity in the 'system', no one can give you anything back.
No, I did not suggest that you suggested that flight and cabin crew contributed to delays - but you commented that you took it out on them, through very PAXey kind of behaviour!
I think it true to say that the crux is that the airline 'system' (for want of better word) as operated in Europe, is not just out of capacity but totally swamped.
I recall an occasion at LHR on 5th Nov 1997 (Guy Fawkes was totally washed out) when a VS machine had a problem with undercarriage on arrival. It was expected but the machine blocked the southern runway from about 15:00 that day.
The back log of aircraft spilled over into the next day. Then into the next day, because machines were in the wrong place. I was going to Paris that night (5th) and was severly delayed.
It made me realise how very serious the situation is - one runway out of action for less than 24 hours and the effects were felt for three days.
I realise that this drifts rather from the points that you were making and the two way break that you are seeking. But because there is zero spare capacity in the 'system', no one can give you anything back.