Who's in charge - RyanAir

[easyflyer83]

Lol it made me laugh so it was light relief and besides i didn't want to be rude and correct you.

As for 'the scrum'. You may be pleasantly surprised tomorrow.

[PhilW1981]

I have to say I have found the "debate" between easyflyer and dolly somewhat enlightening as SLF.

I have been on both sides of this particular fence, as someone who likes a drink or two, in particular when on my outboud flight on holiday, and as a parent who has found certain "groups" somewhat overly lively due to excess alcohol. I have to say I find easyflyers approach somewhat more of a common sense approach. On a recent flight back from Cuba in Thomson premium (just me and my partner), I don't mind admitting I had a 35cl bottle of rum in my carry on, this was due to slow service on our outbound flight, we wanted our meal, a few drinks and then to sleep without the inconvenience of pestering the crew every 20 mins for a top up. We consumed said rum discreetly and we were no bother at all to cabin crew. I would probably have been a little cheesed off had an overly officious member of crew confiscted said rum.

On the flip side, a couple of years ago we were travelling on a late night charter from MAN to LCA. As you can imagine it was full of party goers on their way to 'Napa. We just wanted to sleep but various parties, pissed as a fart, were causing mayhem and the crew did little to stop them. Tough situation for cabin crew but on that flight I felt not enough was done.

[easyflyer83]

Thanks for your comments.

I have been on both sides of this particular fence, as someone who likes a drink or two, in particular when on my outboud flight on holiday, and as a parent who has found certain "groups" somewhat overly lively due to excess alcohol. I have to say I find easyflyers approach somewhat more of a common sense approach. On a recent flight back from Cuba in Thomson premium (just me and my partner), I don't mind admitting I had a 35cl bottle of rum in my carry on, this was due to slow service on our outbound flight, we wanted our meal, a few drinks and then to sleep without the inconvenience of pestering the crew every 20 mins for a top up. We consumed said rum discreetly and we were no bother at all to cabin crew. I would probably have been a little cheesed off had an overly officious member of crew confiscted said rum.

I don't allow passengers to drink their own alcohol but I take measured action. i.e in your instance, I wouldn't take it off you in the first instance. You can usually tell by a passengers attitude whether or not they're going to pay a blind bit of notice to you. My recent flight with the squaddies.....it was obvious they would continue to drink so I took it off them when I caught them. In actual fact they were pretty much brazen about it unlike others who know damn well it's not allowed and will be very sneaky about it. Lowcostdolly doesn't seem to realise this.

On the flip side, a couple of years ago we were travelling on a late night charter from MAN to LCA. As you can imagine it was full of party goers on their way to 'Napa. We just wanted to sleep but various parties, pissed as a fart, were causing mayhem and the crew did little to stop them. Tough situation for cabin crew but on that flight I felt not enough was done.

It can happen. Despite my more laid back/measured (whatever you want to call it) approach I will take action and try to get them to be quiet. If they don't listen then you can withdraw alcohol, again I have done that before but it doesn't always quieten them down. What else can be done? You can divert but behaviour has to be particularly bad, unruly and putting crew and passengers in danger. However annoying it might be, in most cases a group of loud guys/girls won't fall into that category. As such it's not really prudent to divert and cause additional cost to the carrier aswell as disrupting the schedule and other passengers. It's more of a courtesy issue. You can have the police meet the aircraft but if they haven't really done any of the above then they will simply be escorted off the flight. We can't even guarantee that it will actually be the police who will meet the aircraft although in the overwhelming cases it would be.
There is only so much crew can do to curtail low level rowdiness. That is precisely why I differ from the hardline approach administered by lowcostdolly. If you go in all guns blazing from the outset you won't always get respect back. Have a laugh with them, judge the circumstances, passenger profile and cut them a little slack and they will generally react in a positive way towards you. You get to know who the idiots are and who the ring leader of the group is and utilise that knowledge to your advantage. Every group has the most popular guy or the half sensible one and most groups has the group idiot. Take the right approach and they'll keep the idiot in check usually. But if low level rowdiness continues, and by that i mean a bit of shouting, laughing and general loudness then if they persist the crew cannot do an awful lot given that a divert would be an over the top action.
Although i'd hazard a guess that you were probably in the minority of wanting to sleep on a MAN-LCA. Not that that is a crime of course.

[fergineer]

Glad to see that things still happen!!!! Worst trip for me when I was flying was a delayed Ibiza cos the 320 went tech and we had to call out the L1011, the punters well well and truly sloshed by the time we got there....Cabin alt set high and temperature up soon sent them to sleep!!!!

[TightSlot]

...I would probably have been a little cheesed off had an overly officious member of crew confiscted said rum.

and

Tough situation for cabin crew but on that flight I felt not enough was done.

Apparently, it's acceptable when you do it, but not when somebody else does?

If nothing else (and I don't think there is much else) the above post is reassuring. It reminds me that I made the correct decision in leaving and how much better life is now. The post tells us that those involved were so fundamentally unable to cope without alcohol for a short period of time that they knowingly broke the rules and then attempted to justify it by blaming somebody else, in this instance the outbound crew, for providing slow service while suggesting that their actions benefitted the inbound crew involved by reducing their workload.

When I travel as a passenger, I usually have no alcohol at all, even when on vacation. That's right - sometimes many hours go by without alcohol: It's not necessary and it doesn't make the experience any better, or make me feel any better later on after landing. This is what I mean (sorry, but there's a bit of a rant incoming) when I talk about there being a problem with British social culture: Alcohol is hard-wired into the circuitry of our lives. It is possible that my views are influenced by the restrictions on consumption that I have grown used to over the years: A glass of wine at a business lunch has never been an option, although a gin and tonic in the hotel bar after work often has. If I ever find myself in a place where I sneak alcohol onto an aircraft, drink a half bottle of rum between two of us and then attempt to blame somebody/everybody else then it might be time to sit back and take a cool hard look at what I have become.

[easyflyer83]

It is part of the British culture, there's no doubt about that. Only the Scandinavians can be compared to the Brits. However, on the routes in question we're talking about people going off on their well earned holiday. In my opinion they have every right to. I certainly drink when I go on my holidays. I usually fly long haul when I'm away so I don't go mad but it's a great way to relax. The overwhelming amount of people on my flights, even the slightly loud/overexcited, people are well behaved and just enjoying the start to their holiday. That is why the holiday routes are generally my favourite.? I think the issue is generally being blown out of proportion. Yeah you can have your bad flights but in my experience they are few and far between.

[lowcostdolly]

I have to say I have found the "debate" between easyflyer and dolly somewhat enlightening as SLF.

So have I!!

I have a zero tolerance to drunks on board my flights which is in line with our company policy, the ANO's and the tokyo convention. A fellow CM has a different interpretation of these rules.

I actually have Jetset lady's approach to this issue at the outset and if they (the loud and unruly) cannot manage to sit down, shut up and buckle up on the ground they don't make into the air if I can help it. Furthermore they are told on boarding their alcohol purchases from the bar can and will be curtailed. That is an approach our Captains have never failed to back me on.

I do agree with easyflyer that there is usually the "halfway sensible" in these groups and also the complete idiots. Common ground there.

Personally I do not leave the safety and control of my cabin to the "halfway sensible" in a stag or hen party because when exactly do they loose control of said idiots in their group? Is it when they become one because we are selling to them from the bar? Or perhaps it is when they are consuming their own?

I also agree it is sometimes difficult to catch them drinking their own but if you are only selling soft drinks to them and as SCCM making the whole crew vigilent it's not that hard.

You say you don't allow pax to drink their own alchohol easyflyer but then quote the amount of empty bottles you find on turaround Personally I rarely find said empties as I just confiscate bottles from potential troublemakers and give them back on disembarking.

We have a duty of care to all of our pax on our flights which includes the minority. That also means not compromising company policy, the ANO's and the Tokyo convention.

If in doubt ask the Captain. At the end of the day they are in charge at all stages of the flight and I believe was the thread title. Thats FR or not.

At your base Captains may agree to take the loud and unruly into the air and allow you to sell to them from the bar during flight. Maybe you only "consider" telling them and quite often don't as CM.

One day that ego of thinking you "have control" of drunks on your flight as CM will come back to bite you easyflyer

My approach......hard line maybe. Effective in terms of airline safety then I don't care if it's hard line. I don't do drunks on my flights end of.

You think a divert for drunken yobs on a flight compromising safety is OTT easyflyer. Why?

That would be the only course of action for the commander had the cabin got out of control. As CM's we are expected to have control of the cabin. That includes off loading drunks.

Our approaches to this issue differ and we need to agree to disagree.

What the Passengers think though is relevant here.

[easyflyer83]

I also agree it is sometimes difficult to catch them drinking their own but if you are only selling soft drinks to them and as SCCM making the whole crew vigilent it's not that hard.

You say you don't allow pax to drink their own alchohol easyflyer but then quote the amount of empty bottles you find on turaround Personally I rarely find said empties as I just confiscate bottles from potential troublemakers and give them back on disembarking.

So it's hard to catch them but at the same time you are saying it's not? Make your mind up.

Myself and my crews are always vigilent. However, and as I said before, you have other passengers to take care of. Most people who drink their own do it very discreetly whether that be pouring from a bag or out of a water bottle. You do have an idea who MAY be drinking their own alcohol purely by what they're buying but short of searching their bags it can be very hard to catch them and of course we don't have the power to search peoples luggage, particularly if it's on a whim of suspicion that they might just be drinking their own alcohol. Only if you hang around that particular row all flight will you catch them for certain and lets face it, you have alot of other things to do on board than just that.

And yes occasionally i've found bottles of alcohol ranging from wine to vodka. I'm not embarrassed at admitting that because you can be as vigilant as you like but when you have upto 180 passengers, there is very little you can do if they are very discreet and devious about it.

As a side. I've been doing the 'no own alcohol PA' on all my flights long before the memo allowing us to make it on flights we feel necassary.

I just confiscate bottles from potential troublemakers

Way over the top. You cannot go round confiscating bottles from people who you perceive as possible trouble makers. That is unfair.....at best. Again, whilst you're playing Columbo the little old lady is getting hammered on either her own or bar alcohol because you don't perceive her to be a 'potential troublemaker'. You've lost the plot.

I do agree with easyflyer that there is usually the "halfway sensible" in these groups and also the complete idiots. Common ground there.

Personally I do not leave the safety and control of my cabin to the "halfway sensible" in a stag or hen party because when exactly do they loose control of said idiots in their group? Is it when they become one because we are selling to them from the bar? Or perhaps it is when they are consuming their own?

Nobody, and certainly not me, said that you leave it to the "half sensible". I said identify the 'half sensibe/leader', identify the idiot and use that to your advantage. There is a difference.

At your base Captains may agree to take the loud and unruly into the air and allow you to sell to them from the bar during flight. Maybe you only "consider" telling them and quite often don't as CM.

I communicate effectively with my Captain's. Remember also, we operate relatively small, open planned cabins and as a consequence the flight crew are usually aware of whats going on if a group are being excessively rowdy on boarding. They share their concerns with me and vice versa.

One day that ego of thinking you "have control" of drunks on your flight as CM will come back to bite you easyflyer

Taking things personal again. I have no ego.

You think a divert for drunken yobs on a flight compromising safety is OTT easyflyer. Why?

Because there is a difference between drunken YOBS and a group of excitable, lively passengers. A very big difference. With the latter they rarely impede on safety and you can control/manage them rather than diverting and wasting airline resources and passengers time. Yobs are different and I have never condoned or said that I tolerate yobbish behaviour.

That would be the only course of action for the commander had the cabin got out of control.

We're not talking about the cabin getting out of control. You're simply grabbing hold of the worst case scenario.

[PhilW1981]

Tightslot

Apparently, it's acceptable when you do it, but not when somebody else does?

You've made a huge number of assumptions there. Myself and partner would not be acting drunk, falling around the cabin, shouting at people and generally making a nuisance of ourselves as was the case on our way to Larnca. We simply wanted a quiet drink without disturbing the cabin crew. And for the record, nothing was sneaked on board, we board some rum in the departure lounge to use up Peso's (I'm sure you're aware they cannot be exchanged outside of Cuba). There was no conspiracy. As for your implication regarding our unwillingness to refrain from alcohol consumption, we were departing at 17:00 local time, arriving back in Manchester at 7am local time, we wanted to sleep and without some form of sedative or a few drinks I am unlikely to go to sleep before 22:00. This would have meant only 2/3 hours sleep, something I particularly wanted to avoid.

As easyflyer has suggested, a quick look at us from the cabin crew and they would know we weren't a stag or hen group, whooping around making a nuisance of ourselves. I think the point he is making is that you should make a judgement on your course of action based on all available evidence, including destination/departure point, profile of customer/group, behaviour up to this point so far rather than a one size fits all approach. This would surely be common sense.

[Shack37]

I also have been following this thread with great interest and find myself inclining more to LCD's view than to ef83's.

I enjoy a drink whether on holiday or not and do not need a lecture on "what I have become" if I decide to have a glass of wine with my meal followed by coffee and cognac/whisky. So far no CC has found it necessary to comment on my behaviour.

I do however feel uncomfortable when sharing a flight with a group of rowdy pax and would prefer that CC take action to nip any loud behaviour in the bud.

It's always interesting to read how the professionals see their responsibilities with regard to pax behaviour and see it debated openly in the SLF thread.

It's equally interesting to note the difference in their attitudes to other thread contributors which vary from the polite to the downright sanctimonious.

[Chuchinchow]

After reading this thread one now knows one's policy of always flying F or, at a pinch, J on legacy companies (preferably BA) is absolutely correct.

One meets a much better class of rat-arsed drunken git there.

[Hotel Tango]

Well shaid chuchinchow