Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) If you are regularly a passenger on any airline then why not post your questions here?

Worldwide Flying Times

Old 25th Apr 2012, 16:19
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southern UK
Age: 53
Posts: 98
Worldwide Flying Times

I need to put together something for my companies travel policy, which is based on flight cabin allowed dependant on length of flight - eg Under 6 hours Economy, over 6 hours business (its not as simple as that, but you get the gist.)

I thought that there might be something out in webland like a world map, with Heathrow at the centre, and then concentric circles radiating outward in 1 hour intervals (obviously I know it wont be 100% accurate based on aircraft type and a number of other factors) - so that our travellers could view a simple document which would give then an idea of which class they were allowed to book. I couldnt find anything like this, so my next idea was if anybody had a list of flight times from the UK (London) to various worldwide destinations (main corporate ones) - Europe can be ignored, as all destinations fall into the "economy only" catagory, but I am struggling to find anything - any help much appreciated.
GroundedSLF is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2012, 16:49
  #2 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 170
Do you expected your travelling employees to
(a) work on board
(b) come into the office fresh as a daisy at 09:00 having landed at LHR at 06:00 and then put in a full 8-10 hour day
(c) go straight to work immediately they have landed at their destination (outbound from LHR) and then put in a full 8-10 hour day
(d) travel with overnight case, laptop, briefcase
(e) arrive at either end in a suit that doesn't look like the wearer has slept in it for several nights
(f) have a happy employee who feels valued & appreciated by his employer?

then the answer is business class all sectors.

Otherwise just stick the poor scmuck in cattle-class.
G&T ice n slice is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2012, 17:12
  #3 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cape Town / UK / Europe
Posts: 728
For how many destinations do you need this? It might be a bit laborious but you could get this from one of the metasearch website like Kayak or Skyscanner, or from a GDS like which would give you something like this:

21:25 11:00 + 1 day
0 stop(s)

London Heathrow (LHR) terminal 4
Mumbai (Bombay) Chhatrapati Shivaji (BOM) terminal 4

Show flight details
Virgin Atlantic
9h 05

21:25 11:00 + 1 day
0 stop(s)

London Heathrow (LHR) terminal 4
Mumbai (Bombay) Chhatrapati Shivaji (BOM) terminal 4

Show flight details
Jet Airways
9h 05

21:45 11:15 + 1 day
0 stop(s)

London Heathrow (LHR) terminal 5
Mumbai (Bombay) Chhatrapati Shivaji (BOM) terminal 5

Show flight details
American Airlines
9h 00

21:45 11:15 + 1 day
0 stop(s)

London Heathrow (LHR) terminal 5
Mumbai (Bombay) Chhatrapati Shivaji (BOM) terminal 5

Show flight details
British Airways
9h 00
Tableview is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2012, 18:10
  #4 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: On the flightpath
Age: 58
Posts: 355
Sometimes there are so many variables, that a blanket travel policy can cause more problems than it solves.

For example, using flight time alone to determine class of travel can appear overly harsh or unduly lenient. It also depends on whether the cost comes from the traveller's own project budget, general company funds, and what other employees at various levels and with various needs are accessing.

My company's travel policy relies on two considerations:

1. Common sense
2. Justify it to the boss

Once people become greedy or jealous, then things can get out of hand.

We have a lot of meetings in Europe that start at fixed times but have variable end times; as such, we often go lo-co out and business flexible back. But ours is a fairly small company, so such a straightforward policy works more easily than it might somewhere bigger.
ConstantFlyer is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2012, 18:41
  #5 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 78
Posts: 16,751
CF makes good points.

Other factors to consider are the ground times to and from the airport. You could easily add 4 hours to a London flight. You could factor a 2 hour period as double if it was in a very hot or very cold climate without extensive aircon.

Another factor is direction of travel and circadian cycles. You sleep better in the dark.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2012, 20:11
  #6 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 1,218

I think you guys are trying to complicate things, most companies use an arbitrary >8hrs business, <8 hrs economy. These are scheduled, published times and not actual flying time.

The map is a good idea but would be difficult to draw because different airlines factor in different expected taxi, hold times etc so, two airlines flying the exact same route could publish very different scheduled flight times. Also flying west to east is usually quicker than east to west. The company could make the policy to include the longest leg, flying time wise would determine the class of flight.

Probably the easiest way for a map with circles would be great circle distances and assume all jets fly at 500mph. Therefore for business class at 8hrs you could say draw a circle 8x500 = 4000miles around heathrow and any cities outside the circle would be business class any inside would be cattle class?
smith is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2012, 21:31
  #7 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Oil Capital of Central Scotland
Age: 54
Posts: 448
Don't over complicate things. Here's what we do......

Across the North Atlantic - 100% Cattle class, except for medical reasons.

All other routes:
Total door -door time>24 hours = business class
Single flight leg >9 hours = business class
Everything else cattle class, unless escorting a Client or travelling with a Client & they're paying.

Use of LoCo's is preferred, but not mandatory. With a LoCo, We always book 1 bag as hold baggage, as we can never guarantee not having to hand carry parts, tools, documents or other hardware between plants, offices & sites. You might go out with just a laptop, but you can often end up coming back with a transit case & it's often cheaper (& quicker) than sending the stuff by courier!

Tickets are booked as changeable for a nominal fee as a minimum if fully refundable are too expensive or not available, except of course for LoCo - they're throwaway.

We get to plan our own itinerary to suit the times/dates/places we need to be, but it's booked through a travel agent & they keep us honest on the route & the cost [and Vice Versa!] & the boss signs off on our travel plans so we don't get too extravagant.

Personal use of air miles / frequent flyer membership is permitted , in fact it's positively encouraged. As a company, we work on maintaining relationships & enciuraging high quality service, so I guess it makes sense for us to build up a picture of routes and carriers we can rely on & take advantage of it.

Hope this helps.
Donkey497 is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2012, 22:16
  #8 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,297
Travel policies are odd things-often set by peopel who do not ravel much.
In many alrge corporations-well alla ctually onlya small proportion of people do 90% of the travelling-oftena lot of ravelling and they do need to be looked after . The one size fits all policy while the senior execs travel on the company jet is common but of course does get people pi--ed off and people decide to miss trips or find reasons not to go.
The only sensible corporate travel policy i ever came across in 35 years of globe trotting was that everyone flew economy except for the very reguar travelers and they flew business even in Europe because flexible tickets- late check ins etc matter a lot if you are doing two or three trips a week but for a trip every thre month Y class is fine.
Overall the verywords travel policy mean we are about to screw you while we at the top have a different set of rules.

If you are avery frequent traveller hold out for J class and invoke medical arguents if necessary-lots and lots of trips are not good for you and if they are in Y they are really bad for you unless you are very young and if you are a rookie you are not likely to travel much.
Good luck
pax britanica is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2012, 22:23
  #9 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 6,769
Anything other than "use your common sense" rapidly deteriorates into stupidities constrained by some distant corporate policy, especially when set by someone from the beancounters' department who only goes by air when on holiday, and thinks it is all holidays for us.

Regarding being complicated. it is complicated. In fact more than we have even started to describe here. What is the difference between the fares, sometimes it's reasonable, sometimes it's ludicrous. If travelling out on a Sunday it's different to doing a day's presentation in London on Monday, taking an evening flight, and doing a day's presentation in New York on Tuesday (been there, done that).

The one thing I would say is don't fall for the line that a Travel Agent will keep you honest. Whatever your arrangements with them, they are driven by their own relationships with airlines, and incentive schemes tied to this. Most of their staff are not as knowledgeable about travel as those posting on this forum. I have had too many absolute nonsenses from agents to let that pass un-commented.
WHBM is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 03:45
  #10 (permalink)  
Paxing All Over The World
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hertfordshire, UK.
Age: 64
Posts: 9,454
Agreed about travel agents. I recall when working for a small consultancy, our contracted agent booked me 'fully flex Y' because she thought it was cheaper. I had stated that this trip had fixed times and I didn't need flexible. I discovered that it was more expensive than a discounted C. Fortunately, that was just to Switzerland.

Best agent was when working in the City in the late 80s. We were such a big company, that we had a whole branch of AmEx travel IN thebuilding. So you got to know the staff and they they you. They followed our instructions and the policy of each individual department - there was no blanket stricture, save for F and Concorde.

I have been an employee of minor to major (i.e. global corporations) with small consultancies and self-employed direct to the client. It was very rare for there to be a sensible policy. Working directly for clients was the worst as you were already considered over paid. So, naturally I went 3/4 way round the globe in five days (inc work for one) in Y and was expected to be in top form, 12hrs after landing in HKG!

On countless occaisions, I have travelled the night before and paid the hotel out of my own pocket, rather than get up at 04:30 to make a 09:00 in (say) Paris. I recall dozing in a taxi and waking up, staring out the window to try and work out where I was, the answer was Paris. Even just driving to MAN to be fresh in the morning, can be worth a night stop - depending on what you have to do the next day.

I agree with almost all the points made here, are you the Number 2 on the project, or are you the lead? Also, if you travel with a colleague, you WILL talk business and that can be highly beneficial to the company. Having an extra four hours (spread over flight/transit/dinner) can be very helpful, away from the hurly burly of the office - but it does not show up in the company accounts!
PAXboy is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 07:36
  #11 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cape Town / UK / Europe
Posts: 728
I was going to post on this but reading PAXboy's comments .... we've been in pretty much the same situation and come to the same views.

Large company and 'common sense' travel policy just don't go together. I got back from Sydney once to LHR and due to the stupid company travel agency had no onward ticket to my final destination. A BA o/w would have been 450, so I hired a car, booked an easyJet from LTN, went to see my sister for lunch on the way, and headed back. Total cost ..... 75. Put my expenses in and was called into my director's office for 'contravening company travel policy' by booking an LCC. I asked him what the company policy was for and he fell right into it : "To save money ....!" he said. So I said : "Think about what you've just done and said ...." and walked out.

.... and another thing. I also worked as a consultant and a client would often consider that your travel and hotel expenses were a benefit to you and would negotiate to take them out of your fees!

Another time they sent to me to WTM in London. I stayed with family in North London and took a minicab to and/from the fair every day (I can't use the Tube), cost 25/day. My colleagues stayed in a Hilton about a mile from the fair and paid well over 100/day plus taxis because they were too lazy to walk. My expenses were rejected because they could not pay transportation expenses which exceeded 35% of hotel expenses, therefore hotel expenses '0', no transport expenses allowed. Wucking Fankers!!!
Tableview is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 10:59
  #12 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Lemonia. Best Greek in the world
Posts: 1,704
All of the large Companies have an "attitude" to travel, which often starts at the top, is then mediated by bureaucrats in beancounting and by morons in purchasing.
Normally the bureaucrats in beancounting and the morons in purchasing do not do any "added value" travel, so they have a view on costs, rather than creating value.

I've lived with 2 extremes. One global biz had a very small central global team. The CEO understood that to make the very small team deliver, they had to travel, globally and frequently.
I wasn't on the "top team" of 7 but was one of 3 "helpers". A grand total of 10 folk running a 3 billion t/o biz.
The CEO was not daft. "If you want more people, you can stop travelling First and Business. Employ more people and travel down the back."
We certainly did not employ any more people when I was there!!

At the other extreme, I worked for a commodity business, where all costs were examined in great detail. We were not only told to fly down the back, we were actively discouraged from flying - anywhere. However, we reviewed the business strategy during a 2 month navel gaze, and it became clear that there was a large market segment, not well served, who wanted more help, more technology and quicker moves from R & D to the market place. "Customer Intimacy" it was called.
Having spent years teaching techies and their managers from Belgium, Holland, France and the UK to save every penny on travel, fortunately the CEO was awake when I pointed out that we would have to change the whole travel policy, and the days off in lieu policy, and so on.
It costs us a few pennies more, but our reputation for customer service in the market shot up when we took off the constraints. At most we paid out 10pence for every pound gained.

Then some nice Americans bought the business, and went back in to costs - out mode. Unsurprisingly, we lost that nice little niche sector we had just grown!
Ancient Observer is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 11:26
  #13 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Confoederatio Helvetica
Age: 66
Posts: 2,847
For some reason I can't post attachments but how about this: Great Circle Mapper
ExXB is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 12:29
  #14 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 6,769
Originally Posted by Ancient Observer View Post
All of the large Companies have an "attitude" to travel, which often starts at the top, is then mediated by bureaucrats in beancounting and by morons in purchasing.
Normally the bureaucrats in beancounting and the morons in purchasing do not do any "added value" travel, so they have a view on costs, rather than creating value.
I long ago discovered that, while the beancounters do indeed get turned on by minimising cost, those in purchasing who are responsible for selecting the travel company, etc, who handles the corporate account (all bought for minimum cost, remember) are always the first targets for travel agent freebies (which of course are supplied through the trade by the actual airlines etc). Do watch out for that. You'll never see them yourself.

Some years ago a colleague was going from London to a convention in Orlando, just asked our corporate travel agent for "a ticket", but was a bit puzzled that, without further discussion, it was on TWA, connecting through St Louis, which seemed a long way round, and also expensive. I showed him an article in a recent Travel Trade Gazette which described a TWA incentive plan for agents in Britain that was just announced. He said "Oh well", but the connections were missed in both directions and he exploded when he got back. Exit that agent. Good, they were the same agent that told me that on a London City to Dublin trip, I must check in an absolute minimum of 2 hours beforehand "because it is international". When I pointed out that it was an 0700 departure from LCY and the terminal building there was not even open at 0500, the standard line was just repeated.
WHBM is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 12:44
  #15 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 512
Do what my last company did and base it on how many employees fly to any particular destination.

As soon as we opened a big offshore centre in Delhi needing lots of UK based employees to travel there and back it suddenly became considered er short haul.....Unsurprisingly they found it rather difficult to get people to go.
manintheback is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 13:48
  #16 (permalink)  
Paxing All Over The World
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hertfordshire, UK.
Age: 64
Posts: 9,454
I know it sounds like special pleading but, the rest of the company that do not travel have to understand that this is not a perk or a jolly. YES some folks turn it into that and the managers have to be alert to it. I recall some travellers hating holidays because their family wanted to go to Disneyworld (say) and they knew they were going to have to go in Y.

One of the keys to keeping envy out is the thorny subject of Frequent Flyer Miles. If the staff that don't travel think or know that the travelers get FFMs that allow them to treat their family on holiday?

So here are two things to consider:
  • Negoiate prices down as no FFMs are given
  • Ensure that all FFMs go into a charity pot that goes to providing holidays for seriously or terminally ill children
This will be decided to some degree on how much your company travels and whether you are in a position to negotiate bulk deals. That said, if you stick to a carrier group (One World, Star, etc.) then you will probably find them very happy to do a deal in this day and age. So look to see which group covers your area of operations.

FFMs can ruin your policy! Also check to see this with hotel chains and car hire - ALL of them have incentive programmes. When I was working self-employed in IT and could book my own travel (to a cost limit agreed with the client) then FFMs on hotels and air were a real benefit to pay me for sitting down the back.

Oh yes and don't forget that credit and charge cards have FFM schemes too! If your employee uses their personal card and get reimbursed? Again, I was lucky and scored thousands this way - but I was self-employed and would rather have had sick pay and pension then FFMs.
PAXboy is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 16:57
  #17 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Potomac Heights
Posts: 468
Let me note that while my company has a fairly clear statement on when Business is permitted (>8 hrs), my decisions frequently remain conflicted. This is because where I am located (Washington, DC) is just below that time threshold for eastbound travel to London, and only a fraction of an hour longer than that for travel elsewhere in most of Europe. Westbound flights are about 45 minutes to 1 hour longer. Thus, my personal decision, often comes down to the price. Economy roundtrip tickets are $800-$1600. Business tickets can range from $2800-$10,000 (apparently depending on what Keynes called "animal spirits"). If the Business price is more than four or five times the Economy price, I just cannot personally justify throwing the extra money to the airline -- even though its not my money. I just wasn't raised that way.
SeenItAll is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 18:19
  #18 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Confoederatio Helvetica
Age: 66
Posts: 2,847
I think the nature of the trip and total time away from office comes into to it as well.

When I was still working I would often go into the office in the morning, fly to a European hub mid afternoon, connect to a transatlantic flight to IAD, taxi to hotel. Next morning taxi or metro to meeting, lunch, more meeting, taxi to IAD, transatlantic flight to a Euro hub, connecting flight home, back into office, debrief boss, write a report, home to bed. ZZZzzzz.

I would not do that in Economy. In business I could work westbound and sleep eastbound. If I had to travel in Y I would add at least one night in Washington and I wouldn't be (as) productive westbound.

My time and my comfort is worth the price difference.
ExXB is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 19:07
  #19 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Potomac Heights
Posts: 468
ExxB: While your time and comfort are certainly worth something, this something is almost assuredly limited. As I indicated in my post, I would pay several thousand dollars to save a day or be fresh/comfortable, but I would not pay an additive of, say, $6000 on a transatlantic flight. I'd have the company pay for an extra night of hotel and food (maybe $400) plus Economy class rather than drop the extra $5600 on Business. My time and comfort (while worth a lot, especially to me) just aren't worth $5600 more.
SeenItAll is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2012, 21:00
  #20 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 642
There was an excellent (as usual) Alex cartoon on this topic a few years ago :

Travel Desk: I'm afraid your New York flight has been booked via Reykjavik. I can change it for you, but there'll be an admin fee.

Alex: That's OK, just leave it as is.

Boss: Did you see the memo from the director restricting first-class travel to flights over 10 hours?

Alex: I certainly did.
Pax Vobiscum is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.