Ryanair pax held for 3 hours in 50C heat, then evac by slide

[BigFrank]

APU policy on paper

Or with some airlines:

"Never let the theory get in the way of reality ?"

Some airlines only, mark you !

[AnthonyGA]

To answer your question WetFeet a 737 will carry whatever bottled water it's current bar packing plan allows it to and is based on previous sales. It will not be enough for 200 people in a delay situation such as this.

Bottled water will not make much difference in a situation like this. At 45° or 50° C, passengers would have to be sitting in the middle of a windstorm in order to stay safely cooled by perspiration alone, and there was probably no air movement at all inside the cabin. Even with ventilation running, the air movement would be far too slow to help at all at these temperatures. At these temperatures, in fact, heatstroke is possible, and since heatstroke can cause brain damage in just a few minutes, this level of heat is a medical emergency rather than merely a comfort issue.

Since no one developed heatstroke, apparently, either the temperature was actually considerably lower, or they were extremely lucky. At 45° C, air conditioning is the only safe option.

[corsair]

Coincidentally I was on a Ryanair flight very recently about to start, APU whining away in the background, when it suddenly wound down and everything went black. I mean everything, not even the emergency lights. Most unusual. Glancing into the flight deck that too was dark. After a bit there was some lighting but no air. This was at a Spanish airport. It got very hot, very quickly, indeed the woman beside me commented that she felt she could hardly breathe such was density of the air. I felt the same and from the reaction of others around me there was a bit of disquiet. I turned to my wife and assured her that they would probably plug in an air cart and that duly happened, coolness was restored.

An Engineer appeared, entered the flight deck and started pushing buttons and soon whatever the problem was went away. The British Captain then came on and explained it was a 'serious technical issue' We left late but curiously arrived on time.

But whatever, being left in the dark, with that heat, even with the doors open made quite an impression. So it's understandable that someone took things into his own hands after an extended period sitting there slowly broiling with minimum explanation from the flight deck.

At a minimum there does seem to be a failure on the part of the crew to keep the passengers reassured. But I also think it would be wrong to simply suggest it's just a Ryanair thing. It could easily happen in other airlines.

[Snow_Owl]

You'd have probably got arrested. Thats the way things seem to go down these days.

[cavortingcheetah]

Perhaps one might be excused for thinking that, from time to time, Ryanair has no Commanders or Captains in its aircraft, a role rather more often performed by the Ops clerk.

[cyflyer]

I would have been out of my seat and at the Flight Deck door demanding an explanation from the Commander as to what s/he was doing to rectify the situation.

So,... during flight if something appears awry, you would be thumping at the flight deck door to demand an explanation also ? , maybe you would like to take control and fly the plane yourself as you appear to know better than the crew ?

[Shack37]

So,... during flight if something appears awry, you would be thumping at the flight deck door to demand an explanation also ? , maybe you would like to take control and fly the plane yourself as you appear to know better than the crew ?

I believe this poster is referring to a situation on the ground. Had they been airborne then the situation described probably hadn't occurred. If the conditions were indeed as bad as mentioned just how long are pax expected to accept it before asking for an explanation?

[WHBM]

There has been a comparable (maybe worse) situation on the commuter railway in London in recent weeks, a rush hour train from St Pancras to Luton (which probably contained people heading for the airport) stuck in the tunnel for three hours, 18.00 to 21.00, with no air con or ventilation, emergency batery lights which ran down after an hour, no communication, many standing passengers packed in, etc.

St Albans passengers stranded on rush-hour train (From St Albans & Harpenden Review)

In the end passengers forced the doors and got down onto the tracks, for which they were criticised, in an approach comparable to blowing the slides. It is only complete management incompetence and desperation of those involved who are left to their own devices which leads to this.

It seems that something which has happened in recent years is that transport operators of multiple types have lost the ability to handle operational failures. Such "management" as may be involved seem to be a handful 6 months out of college (this especially happens with issues outside 'normal' business hours).

[fireflybob]

It seems that something which has happened in recent years is that transport operators of multiple types have lost the ability to handle operational failures. Such "management" as may be involved seem to be a handful 6 months out of college (this especially happens with issues outside 'normal' business hours).

The mistake these companies make is to think they are in the "transportation" business whereas almost all businesses are in the "people" business - it's all about thinking what the people (whom the railway industry know refers to as "customers") really need/want and building up a good relationship with them by handling situations such as this well.

[WHBM]

Indeed. If we are not careful one day there's going to be a serious accident arising somewhere, not from operating collision or some sudden calamity, but from passengers being left in a desperately vulnerable position while the personnel are messing around complying with whatever some desk jockey or 'Elf & Saf'tey "expert" has said is the only way to do things.

[AirResearcher]

If , God forbid, someone were to have a heart attack and die in this kind of situation - whih is not impossible, would the responsibility and liability be thrown back on the Captain, or the Captains employers?
If its the employers, would it be it Ryanair (approx. 35% probability) or his external employment agency (approx. 65% probability)...or in the case of the contracted pilots, the mini-limited company that the Captain and his 2 'business associates' are 'encouraged' to set up?
I guess the same would apply for any fatal incident on Ryanair flights and is quite similar to the 'virtual airline' Manx2 denial of responsibility for the Cork crash currently under investigation?

Any thoughts anyone?

[BigFrank]

Thoughts on Ryanair/Seville vs Manx2/Cork

Having posted both here and on the Cork Accident thread, the question intrigues me.

I do not know the answer, as the definitive answer to complicated legal questions of this nature is only found both after they come to a head [which has happened for "Cork" but did not happen here] AND once they are brought before a court, which will inevitably happen in the fulness of time for "Cork".

Just a pity so many people paid such a high price in the latter case to give the lawyers their day in court.

It is also worrying to think that Ryanair´s employment practices might put it anywhere near the Manx2 "virtual" category. I hope you are wrong.

[L337]

If , God forbid, someone were to have a heart attack and die in this kind of situation - whih is not impossible, would the responsibility and liability be thrown back on the Captain, or the Captains employers?

I will repeat my earlier (moderator deleted) comment. A Captain has a three legged stool of responsibilities given to him by virtue of having a professional licence.

Firstly has a duty of care to his passengers. This is enshrined in common law.

Secondly he has a responsibility to the CAA or whoever issued his licence.

Finally he has a responsibility to his employee.

It would seem to me that he has failed in his primary responsibility, and that is he failed in his duty of care.

[TightSlot]

I will repeat my earlier (moderator deleted) comment. A Captain has a three legged stool of responsibilities given to him by virtue of having a professional licence.

I've checked back and can't find any deletions, mod or otherwise of any of your posts?

[BigFrank]

Duty of care "enshrined in common law"

Depends on the country, doesn´t it.

No common law in Spain for certain.

Not much in Ireland either I would guess.

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

1. The Captain's decision is final.
Repeat.

[L337]

The concept of "Duty of Care" is not just a British thing. It exists in the USA as well as Europe. It just so happens that in the UK it developed through common law.

The Duty of Care in Irish Tort Law

Duty of Care-Wikipedia


The Captains decision might be final, but he still has to be able to justify his decisions. To the customer, the licence issuer, and his employee. He does not live in some God given bubble. As much as some would like to believe they do.

On the ground, with the doors open, the Captain's decisions are far from final.

@TS re- the deleted post. It was there, I posted, and then looked to check it had been posted. Well I thought I had. It' an age thing.

[GoingForward]

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Depends on the country, doesn´t it.

No common law in Spain for certain.

Not much in Ireland either I would guess.

You're guessing wrong. The Republic of Ireland is most definitely a common law jurisdiction. In fact, it's one of the places where common-law grew up, as it's origins are in Anglo-Norman (English) law.

It has all of those concepts in law like duty of care etc etc.
It's also one of the most litigious countries in the world other than the United States.

Law suits of all types are very common.

I'm not sure whether this would fall into Ireland's juristiction though as the flight was operating between Spain and Italy, even if Ryanair are Irish-registered, you could find the contracts of sale are not.

[leisen]

Duty of care

Duty of care is also present in Spanish Criminal Law as a General Principle. In this way, probably the captain would be responsible in case of an eventual death of a passenger.

[Nicholas49]

Thought I would offer some perspective on the legal aspect of this incident and 'give something back'. Must make clear though I am no expert on either Spanish or Irish law so what I say comes with a heavy English law bias.

The fact that the airline is an Irish-registered company and this incident happened in Spain does not really complicate matters as a result of:

Council Regulation (EC) No 44/2001 (full text here)

In particular Article 5(3) copied below with my additions in square brackets:

"A person [the airline] domiciled in a Member State [Ireland] may, in another
Member State [Spain], be sued: in matters relating to tort, delict or quasi-delict, in the courts for the place where the harmful event occurred [Lanzarote, Spain] or may occur;

Consequently, this European law would enable a Spanish (or any other EU national for that matter) passenger on this flight to sue the airline in Spanish courts for any tort committed. The most likely tort would be the tort of negligence committed by the commander and potentially also his employer, the airline, through employers' liability - as expained by L337), although this would obviously have to be proven in court.

The advert at the bottom of this page (no, not the one of an aircraft) is very distracting.