BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions V
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Hi, Litebulbs
No problem with sensible inputs, I'm sure. But surely existing CC have their T&C protected anyway.
Indeed. Union power seemed to have pulled the plug on that agreement. Strange.
Ahhh ... there's the nub of the problem.
Individual CC power may, or may not, have affected the quality of service [or indeed competence or courtesy] in recent years. We will all have a view on that, I'm sure.
Do I want them to be 'happy at work'? Actually, I don't give a sh1t. I pay for my ticket, I expect to get what it says on the box. I'm not in the business of paying money to make BA staff happy.
Let me tell you a tale.
In my mid to late 40s, I was also unhappy at work. I had enjoyed a very successful career, but I felt undervalued. I was largely ignored as a human being ... I was just "office equipment" as far as my superiors seemed to view me.
So what did I do? Did I kick and bitch at the structure that paid me a good salary? Did I deliberately undermine the workplace, or fail to do what I was paid to do?
No ... I left, to do something else that gave me job satisfaction, and at the same time put me in a position where I was recognised as someone who 'added value'.
I gave up a 30-year career. Perhaps those who complain so much about working for BA could consider a similar move? Then the SLF wouldn't have to be cared for by people who clearly don't give a sh1t about the paying punters? It's not a Charity donation, it's a salary for doing the job ... and the existing CC have their existing salaries protected.
BASSA does not run BA any more. Simples.
Sorry if that's a bit hard-ball, LB, but I needed to say that.
Are we talking about trade union collective power (Unite) or the power of the individual to have an input to working conditions?
If it is Unite power, then they came to an agreement with BA on a deal. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if an open vote (no recommendation) would have happened, but we will never know.
How much did individual power affect the passenger prior to this dispute and how often? If the dispute was settled tomorrow, I get the feeling that many that contribute to this thread would still not be happy. These 6000 potential strikers would still be in employment, so there is a big chance that they will be there for some time to come. Surely you want them to be happy at work, because that is what you will experience as passengers, not their terms and conditions.
Individual CC power may, or may not, have affected the quality of service [or indeed competence or courtesy] in recent years. We will all have a view on that, I'm sure.
Do I want them to be 'happy at work'? Actually, I don't give a sh1t. I pay for my ticket, I expect to get what it says on the box. I'm not in the business of paying money to make BA staff happy.
Let me tell you a tale.
In my mid to late 40s, I was also unhappy at work. I had enjoyed a very successful career, but I felt undervalued. I was largely ignored as a human being ... I was just "office equipment" as far as my superiors seemed to view me.
So what did I do? Did I kick and bitch at the structure that paid me a good salary? Did I deliberately undermine the workplace, or fail to do what I was paid to do?
No ... I left, to do something else that gave me job satisfaction, and at the same time put me in a position where I was recognised as someone who 'added value'.
I gave up a 30-year career. Perhaps those who complain so much about working for BA could consider a similar move? Then the SLF wouldn't have to be cared for by people who clearly don't give a sh1t about the paying punters? It's not a Charity donation, it's a salary for doing the job ... and the existing CC have their existing salaries protected.
BASSA does not run BA any more. Simples.
Sorry if that's a bit hard-ball, LB, but I needed to say that.
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MPN11
Not hard ball at all and all valid points, but I would suggest that you are talking about the extremes, rather than the majority.
If you take out all other factors, then seeing a new fleet of employees on minimum wage plus expenses, when you are either above or a long way above that position, will bring a certain amount of fear for your future. That will be the majority position. There will be some who are at the very top, who will be fearful of far more than that, but it is the majority who count and it will be the majority that will decide the end to this.
As to a career change, if you go from one profession to another, but retain a package broadly the same, then all well and good. The elephant in the room here, is that you will have a large number of employees who are type cast to the current job and ALL of its benefits and whose most recent training has been solely for there current job. To take those skills to an equivalent UK based employer will in all probability lead to a pay cut.
So to put it simply, BA crew are paid on the face of it, above the market rate for the role in the UK and their employer has introduced new employees below this. If it was me, I would be worried and be striving for watertight guarantees. Whether they are achievable is the discussion point.
If you take out all other factors, then seeing a new fleet of employees on minimum wage plus expenses, when you are either above or a long way above that position, will bring a certain amount of fear for your future. That will be the majority position. There will be some who are at the very top, who will be fearful of far more than that, but it is the majority who count and it will be the majority that will decide the end to this.
As to a career change, if you go from one profession to another, but retain a package broadly the same, then all well and good. The elephant in the room here, is that you will have a large number of employees who are type cast to the current job and ALL of its benefits and whose most recent training has been solely for there current job. To take those skills to an equivalent UK based employer will in all probability lead to a pay cut.
So to put it simply, BA crew are paid on the face of it, above the market rate for the role in the UK and their employer has introduced new employees below this. If it was me, I would be worried and be striving for watertight guarantees. Whether they are achievable is the discussion point.
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Having started to take back control for IFCE operations, BA management now has no choice but to start doing the job it should have been doing all along and for which its neglect led to this sorry situation in the first place.
BA's choice not to take the dismissal/SOSR route means that it now needs to start working with its current WW LHR CSDs, PSRs & CC to create together and implement appropriate crew performance management procedures, etc., such that the consistent high customer experience that it is going to need to compete with other WW airlines in the years ahead is reached and maintained.
There will be much resistance and friction along the lines of "Windowsgate", etc., but BA has no choice having taken back the reins to now inspire and lead its CC into delivering new and higher levels of in-flight customer experience.
If BA management does not step up to the responsibilities it has recovered then the LHR WW CC will be in a vacuum and will rapidly regress back to the prior situation.
AVF
BA's choice not to take the dismissal/SOSR route means that it now needs to start working with its current WW LHR CSDs, PSRs & CC to create together and implement appropriate crew performance management procedures, etc., such that the consistent high customer experience that it is going to need to compete with other WW airlines in the years ahead is reached and maintained.
There will be much resistance and friction along the lines of "Windowsgate", etc., but BA has no choice having taken back the reins to now inspire and lead its CC into delivering new and higher levels of in-flight customer experience.
If BA management does not step up to the responsibilities it has recovered then the LHR WW CC will be in a vacuum and will rapidly regress back to the prior situation.
AVF
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Sorry Litebulbs but any professional who is grumpy with customers because they have a grudge against their boss isn't a professional. Perhaps that is part of the problem - they just aren't suited to customer service roles.
"So to put it simply, BA crew are paid on the face of it, above the market rate for the role in the UK and their employer has introduced new employees below this. If it was me, I would be worried and be striking for watertight guarantees. Whether they are achievable is the discussion point."
This, Litebulbs, is a smoke screen. The original dispute (from which all other disputes arise) was about imposition and "No negotiation". It is a sad sign of the mess that this dispute has become that Cabin Crew seem to have forgotten what it was they started striking about.
"So to put it simply, BA crew are paid on the face of it, above the market rate for the role in the UK and their employer has introduced new employees below this. If it was me, I would be worried and be striking for watertight guarantees. Whether they are achievable is the discussion point."
This, Litebulbs, is a smoke screen. The original dispute (from which all other disputes arise) was about imposition and "No negotiation". It is a sad sign of the mess that this dispute has become that Cabin Crew seem to have forgotten what it was they started striking about.
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Litebulbs
Not hard ball at all and all valid points, but I would suggest that you are talking about the extremes, rather than the majority.
If you take out all other factors, then seeing a new fleet of employees on minimum wage plus expenses, when you are either above or a long way above that position, will bring a certain amount of fear for your future. That will be the majority position. There will be some who are at the very top, who will be fearful of far more than that, but it is the majority who count and it will be the majority that will decide the end to this.
As to a career change, if you go from one profession to another, but retain a package broadly the same, then all well and good. The elephant in the room here, is that you will have a large number of employees who are type cast to the current job and ALL of its benefits and whose training has been solely for there current job. To take those skills to an equivalent UK based employer will in all probability lead to a pay cut.
So to put it simply, BA crew are paid on the face of it, above the market rate for the role in the UK and their employer has introduced new employees below this. If it was me, I would be worried and be striking for watertight guarantees. Whether they are achievable is the discussion point.
The World changes. HMG is now about to prune the Military to un-heard of levels, and making redundant the very people whose lives are on the line in 'Stan. The majority of those signed up to do 22 years [if they got promoted far enough, and lived long enough] ... they may not now get to do the 22, one way or another.
You will understand that I really don't have a huge degree of empathy with those senior CC who expect to remain in post, on fixed T&Cs, until they draw their State Pension [or whatever BA's employment cut-off is]. However, BA seems to be allowing that ... and for which BASSA calls for strikes? Can you see the illogicality of that?
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Moving Forwards under BA Management
The Union's responsibility will be to work collaboratively and constructively together with BA management in providing practical feed-back and recommendations from its vast experience in actually delivering the IFCE service to BA's customers.
A sensible and intelligent management will always respect constructive and hard experience-learnt recommendations regarding the practicalities of service delivery and will tailor its programmes to incorporate this extremely valuable in-house knowledge accordingly.
With careful financial mangement and respect of the situation by both sides an improved customer service combined with the recognition that WW CC numbers will be diminishing over time will all help to support and justify the continuing higher salaries paid.
AVF
A sensible and intelligent management will always respect constructive and hard experience-learnt recommendations regarding the practicalities of service delivery and will tailor its programmes to incorporate this extremely valuable in-house knowledge accordingly.
With careful financial mangement and respect of the situation by both sides an improved customer service combined with the recognition that WW CC numbers will be diminishing over time will all help to support and justify the continuing higher salaries paid.
AVF
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Perfect, Sir Humphrey 
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MPN11
You are right about guaranteeing the future, nobody can. However a case could be made to draw build assurances into an agreement that takes into account downsizing etc. Speaking from my slightly left of centre viewpoint, you can write what you want, but SOSR overrides it anyway
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One thing that is forgotten in this debate is that CC are able to apply for other roles via the internal system like any other staff member.
I know of many who have, and some of those ended up in senior management roles, including Joy Hordern who went on to become Head of CC in the late 1990's.
There is no neccesity to stay as CC throughout your BA career, but thousands do, because they enjoy the lifestyle and the generous allowances.
I know of many who have, and some of those ended up in senior management roles, including Joy Hordern who went on to become Head of CC in the late 1990's.
There is no neccesity to stay as CC throughout your BA career, but thousands do, because they enjoy the lifestyle and the generous allowances.
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The latest from MissM
A curious view.
I thought the idea of an airline was to provide a service to the paying SLF, and if the regular over-paid staff won't do it then someone else will ... to help the Company as well as the SLF.
Silly me. I must visit Planet BASSA more often.
Enough for today ... I'm beaming myself back to Planet Reality.
BA have trained thousands of VCC's and their only purpose is to destroy our strike. Is that to show respect toward a loyal workforce? Another example is BA have also completely ignored a long-standing agreement with regards to part-time contract. Crew have been offered part-time over others who are on the part-time list. Many have been waiting years and are stll waiting. Is that respectful?
I thought the idea of an airline was to provide a service to the paying SLF, and if the regular over-paid staff won't do it then someone else will ... to help the Company as well as the SLF.
Silly me. I must visit Planet BASSA more often.
Enough for today ... I'm beaming myself back to Planet Reality.
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Drawing from the other thread ( my emphasis ) by Miss M
Absolutely superb. Would anyone like to try and teach this woman the meaning of irony ?
BA have trained thousands of VCC's and their only purpose is to destroy our strike. Is that to show respect toward a loyal workforce?
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Originally Posted by MissM
BA have trained thousands of VCC's and their only purpose is to destroy our strike.
- provide a supplementary, trained team of people in times of operational stress (e.g.snow/poor weather) when other staff may not be able to report for work
- ensure that if BASSA refuses to permit invocation of the Disruption Agreement (as it has several times in the past year) BA can still get its customers home
- enable variety of experience to desk based staff
- ensure management have a genuine perspective of how their decisions impact the "coal face", and feedback changes where necessary
All of the above are valid reasons for deploying VCC, beyond simply strike breaking. VCC will continue long after BASSA is forgotten.
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I suspect there are many BA cabin crew who, whilst not overtly militant, have become so conditioned to believing whatever BASSA say that if BA said today (Saturday) is Saturday and BASSA said no it's Wednesday, they'd believe BASSA.
There also seems to be a view that cabin crew have unfettered right to strike which must reign supreme and anything done that impedes the impact of a strike is a complete abherration.
There also seems to be a view that cabin crew have unfettered right to strike which must reign supreme and anything done that impedes the impact of a strike is a complete abherration.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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Or take advice to decide if it was unprotected, than seek damages from the union band possibly dismiss striking staff or warn them they face dismissal.?
I somehow don't think that seeking an injunction to see if it is unprotected or not makes any sense.
I somehow don't think that seeking an injunction to see if it is unprotected or not makes any sense.
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Litebulbs - If I were BA ......
.... I would let them get on with it but issue a warning to the union members stating that BA considers the action unprotected because of the language in the published reasons to strike specifically linking this IA to the previous and mentioning the possible consequences of taking unprotected action - which may be news to some as the Union, in all its bravado, appears to have been remiss in advising its members of the consequences of their actions.
I would also put the Union on written notice of the liabilities of their calling unprotected action.
Then I would sit back and see just exactly what happens. I would take the opportunity to see just exactly how many of the CC were prepared to go out on strike under these circumstances which would give BA a much needed calibration of the real current size of the problem (and not the size based on "sending BA a message") remembering that it was down from 4900 to 4400 at the end of the last period of IA.
Depending upon the remaining size of the real problem I would then decide on my next action.
What would you do if you were BA?
I would also put the Union on written notice of the liabilities of their calling unprotected action.
Then I would sit back and see just exactly what happens. I would take the opportunity to see just exactly how many of the CC were prepared to go out on strike under these circumstances which would give BA a much needed calibration of the real current size of the problem (and not the size based on "sending BA a message") remembering that it was down from 4900 to 4400 at the end of the last period of IA.
Depending upon the remaining size of the real problem I would then decide on my next action.
What would you do if you were BA?
Last edited by AV Flyer; 2nd Apr 2011 at 21:33.