BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions V
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 82
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the CC thread, there are two comments being made (among many);
A. "That Bassa Reps are spreading the word that there won't really be a strike, just threats." Is there a list of Bassa Reps anywhere, as it was reported many months ago that a large quantity had been sacked by BA for various actions/discipline problems. Bearing in mind that BASSA supposedly cannot elect anybody to any positions whilst there is a dispute in place, so there should not be any replacement Reps voted in, but DH did advertise for unpaid!! volunteers - again if there is, presumably BA have to be advised accordingly - and agree? - but as the facility agreement is no longer in place? are Reps still recognised? - or allowed to do anything.
B. "That Unite are negotiating with BA (KW) to reach an agreement over the IA issues." The only problem with this as Woodley found out before handing over to Mclucksky, is that BASSA claimed the sole rights to agree a dispute - and Woodley agreed and withdrew the Unite statement recommending acceptance of the offer that he agreed with BA - so where's the dog and where's the tail?
Don't you just love a nice tidy ordered world!!
A. "That Bassa Reps are spreading the word that there won't really be a strike, just threats." Is there a list of Bassa Reps anywhere, as it was reported many months ago that a large quantity had been sacked by BA for various actions/discipline problems. Bearing in mind that BASSA supposedly cannot elect anybody to any positions whilst there is a dispute in place, so there should not be any replacement Reps voted in, but DH did advertise for unpaid!! volunteers - again if there is, presumably BA have to be advised accordingly - and agree? - but as the facility agreement is no longer in place? are Reps still recognised? - or allowed to do anything.
B. "That Unite are negotiating with BA (KW) to reach an agreement over the IA issues." The only problem with this as Woodley found out before handing over to Mclucksky, is that BASSA claimed the sole rights to agree a dispute - and Woodley agreed and withdrew the Unite statement recommending acceptance of the offer that he agreed with BA - so where's the dog and where's the tail?
Don't you just love a nice tidy ordered world!!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: -)
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I notice something interesting._ It might be a coincidence, but didn’t someone once say that there is no such thing as a coincidence?
On 22 February 2011, Brendan Gold of Unite, sent a letter which very carefully and methodically calculated the cabin crew membership of BA to be 9824._ Now this figure was just about exactly 400 less that the numbers who had been balloted in the 21 December 2010 - 21 January 2011 strike vote._ Quite a big drop in such a short amount of time._ Comparing that ballot with the one announced yesterday I see that the YES vote is pretty well the same, the spoiled votes about the same and the DIDN’T RETURN BALLOT paper also just about the same._ But look and behold - the NO vote dropped by approximately 400 votes._ Please forgive me for suggesting this, but could it be that those cabin crew who received a ballot paper despite having resigned from BASSA decided to take advantage of this and vote against the Union that they no longer liked?_ If they did this, then that would have been naughty.
On 22 February 2011, Brendan Gold of Unite, sent a letter which very carefully and methodically calculated the cabin crew membership of BA to be 9824._ Now this figure was just about exactly 400 less that the numbers who had been balloted in the 21 December 2010 - 21 January 2011 strike vote._ Quite a big drop in such a short amount of time._ Comparing that ballot with the one announced yesterday I see that the YES vote is pretty well the same, the spoiled votes about the same and the DIDN’T RETURN BALLOT paper also just about the same._ But look and behold - the NO vote dropped by approximately 400 votes._ Please forgive me for suggesting this, but could it be that those cabin crew who received a ballot paper despite having resigned from BASSA decided to take advantage of this and vote against the Union that they no longer liked?_ If they did this, then that would have been naughty.
A couple of posters on the other thread suggesting that all it would take is the full return of ST and independent arbitrations for those dismissed. Somewhat different to the 10 items of dispute heralded by BASSA.
I wonder if that is the majority view? And I wonder if BA offered it, would the knowing-they-wont-be-re-employed Messrs Holley, Everard etc allow their members to vote on it?
Doubt it.
I wonder if that is the majority view? And I wonder if BA offered it, would the knowing-they-wont-be-re-employed Messrs Holley, Everard etc allow their members to vote on it?
Doubt it.
Could someone explain to me the difference between the current system where anyone sacked can go to an Industrial Tribunal for an independent right/wrong decision (which I thought was in place now) and what BASSA are asking for in their long list of demands. Why ACAS arbitration when ACAS don't understand employment law as well as the Industrial Tribunal folks?
Me confused - can't understand the difference?
Thanks
Me confused - can't understand the difference?
Thanks
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GrahamO
An employment tribunal will look at the facts and merits of the case and judge whether the actions taken by the employer were reasonable. The key thing is the the ET cannot make its own judgment on the facts and impose its view.
So if BA carried out and investigation (internal) and then followed its own disciplinary procedure (internal) including appeals and came to a decisions to dismiss (internal), then unless there was something so perverse, then the dismissal will be fair.
Even if the tribunal found that the dismissal was unfair, there would be no obligation to reengage the dismissed employee, just pay them.
What I believe Bassa are asking for is arbitration by an independent, who will judge on the facts of the case, not whether the process followed was fair.
Does this make sense?
So if BA carried out and investigation (internal) and then followed its own disciplinary procedure (internal) including appeals and came to a decisions to dismiss (internal), then unless there was something so perverse, then the dismissal will be fair.
Even if the tribunal found that the dismissal was unfair, there would be no obligation to reengage the dismissed employee, just pay them.
What I believe Bassa are asking for is arbitration by an independent, who will judge on the facts of the case, not whether the process followed was fair.
Does this make sense?
Join Date: May 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
five live -
Having emailed and texted searching questions about BASSA's accounts and pay of its officers to Victoria Derbyshire's show which featured CC in all its diversity this morning, I was disappointed it never came up!
Someone called Ian spoke up on behalf of BASSA quite eloquently until falling into a great big putrid hole filled with his own bile. He likened the plight of BASSA with that of the Jews on Kristallnacht. What sort of stupid insensitive tow-rag does that?
Kristallnacht - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Someone called Ian spoke up on behalf of BASSA quite eloquently until falling into a great big putrid hole filled with his own bile. He likened the plight of BASSA with that of the Jews on Kristallnacht. What sort of stupid insensitive tow-rag does that?
Kristallnacht - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by mrpony; 29th Mar 2011 at 11:06. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GB
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Symptomatic of its bankrupt arguments, BASSA has a history of deploying frankly abhorrent Nazi imagery to ram its perverse message home:
http://daylife.sky.com/imageserve/0d...ndabg/610x.jpg
And again a BASSA propaganda sheet littered with references paralleling this "struggle" to the Holocaust:
http://bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloads/N...DFFile-785.pdf
They also have a penchant for using children to make their point, which is deeply unpleasant, reminiscent of Saddam Hussein’s “Human Shield”:
www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/94c16cff08.jpg
http://daylife.sky.com/imageserve/0d...ndabg/610x.jpg
And again a BASSA propaganda sheet littered with references paralleling this "struggle" to the Holocaust:
http://bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloads/N...DFFile-785.pdf
They also have a penchant for using children to make their point, which is deeply unpleasant, reminiscent of Saddam Hussein’s “Human Shield”:
www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/94c16cff08.jpg
Last edited by VintageKrug; 29th Mar 2011 at 17:52.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tracey Island
Posts: 1,496
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Symptomatic of its bankrupt arguments, BASSA has a history of deploying frankly abhorrent Nazi imagery to ram its perverse message home:
http://daylife.sky.com/imageserve/0d...ndabg/610x.jpg
And again a BASSA propaganda sheet littered with references paralleling this "struggle" to the Holocaust:
http://bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloads/N...DFFile-785.pdf
They also have a penchant for using children to make their point, which is deeply unpleasant, reminiscent of Saddam Hussein’s “Human Shield”:
www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/94c16cff08.jpg
http://daylife.sky.com/imageserve/0d...ndabg/610x.jpg
And again a BASSA propaganda sheet littered with references paralleling this "struggle" to the Holocaust:
http://bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloads/N...DFFile-785.pdf
They also have a penchant for using children to make their point, which is deeply unpleasant, reminiscent of Saddam Hussein’s “Human Shield”:
www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/94c16cff08.jpg
I don't support BASSAs use of Nazi images, but, it always amazes me how people who think they are better than them make the same mistakes...
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VintageKrug:
call100 makes a valid point.
Does anyone believe that we will actually see strike dates called?
A part of me says "No"...but another part says that it difficult to try to gauge what such a radical group will do. The dispute is no longer issue driven and seems to be more about emotion.
call100 makes a valid point.
Does anyone believe that we will actually see strike dates called?
A part of me says "No"...but another part says that it difficult to try to gauge what such a radical group will do. The dispute is no longer issue driven and seems to be more about emotion.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: England
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A couple of posters on the other thread suggesting that all it would take is the full return of ST and independent arbitrations for those dismissed. Somewhat different to the 10 items of dispute heralded by BASSA.
I wonder if that is the majority view? And I wonder if BA offered it, would the knowing-they-wont-be-re-employed Messrs Holley, Everard etc allow their members to vote on it?
I wonder if that is the majority view? And I wonder if BA offered it, would the knowing-they-wont-be-re-employed Messrs Holley, Everard etc allow their members to vote on it?
BA did offer ACAS arbitration in the October 2010 offer, see extract below. And no, CC weren't allowed to vote on it.
Unite and British Airways agree that if any employee who has been subject to disciplinary action (in connection with the current dispute) by British Airways and whose name appears in the confidential annex to this agreement (a 'Relevant Employee') decides to bring an Employment Tribunal claim for unfair dismissal, then as an alternative to Employment Tribunal litigation, that claim will ordinarily be dealt with under the Acas arbitration scheme for the resolution of unfair dismissal disputes.
British Airways and Unite agree that the Arbitrator's decision will be binding and before entering the Acas arbitration scheme they will enter into an agreement to this effect, to which the Relevant Employee will also be a party.
Any arbitration hearing will take place only after British Airways' internal appeals procedure has been exhausted. In any such case British Airways will have the right to approve or reject the arbitrator proposed.
BA did retain the right to reject the arbitrator, don't know how important that is, but I daresay that might be waived in any current negotiation, as it's all ACAS. Does the ACAS scheme result in re-employment if dismissal found to be unfair, or just financial compensation/penalty?
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: England
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Further to my final sentence/question, on googling around I found this ACAS arbitration scheme Q&A Acas - Acas Arbitration Scheme Q&A
In a case of alleged unfair dismissal, what will the arbitrator award if they decide that the dismissal was unfair?
If the arbitrator finds that the dismissal was unfair, they have the power to award reinstatement or re-engagement with or without compensation. If reinstatement or re-engagement are not sought by the former employee or are not considered appropriate by the arbitrator, they can award compensation.
See also -
Will we be allowed to choose the arbitrator appointed to hear the case?
No. However, if a party feels that there are exceptional circumstances which may affect the named arbitrator's ability to be impartial, for example if they have a connection with one of the parties, contact the Acas Arbitration Section immediately. Acas arbitrators are under a duty to disclose any actual or perceived conflict of interest, and will not be appointed to hear a case if a real conflict of interest is identified.
In a case of alleged unfair dismissal, what will the arbitrator award if they decide that the dismissal was unfair?
If the arbitrator finds that the dismissal was unfair, they have the power to award reinstatement or re-engagement with or without compensation. If reinstatement or re-engagement are not sought by the former employee or are not considered appropriate by the arbitrator, they can award compensation.
See also -
Will we be allowed to choose the arbitrator appointed to hear the case?
No. However, if a party feels that there are exceptional circumstances which may affect the named arbitrator's ability to be impartial, for example if they have a connection with one of the parties, contact the Acas Arbitration Section immediately. Acas arbitrators are under a duty to disclose any actual or perceived conflict of interest, and will not be appointed to hear a case if a real conflict of interest is identified.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Basque Country
Age: 75
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Staff Travel
Saw this comment in today's Independent which made me smile...
Wikipedia:
Someone needs to send Len McCluskey a dictionary with the word "perk" underlined, then knee him in the groin and show him the door before he kills off BA completely and makes all of his BA members unemployed.
The term perqs (also perks) is often used colloquially to refer to those benefits of a more discretionary nature. Often, perks are given to employees who are doing notably well and/or have seniority. Common perks are take-home vehicles, hotel stays, free refreshments, leisure activities on work time (golf, etc.), stationery, allowances for lunch, and—when multiple choices exist—first choice of such things as job assignments and vacation scheduling. They may also be given first chance at job promotions when vacancies exist.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An interesting statement made in regards to BA's confidence in being able to handle its schedule in the event of a strike from the Independent:
Does he not understand that it is statements such as the above that have made striking BA Cabin Crew loathed by the general public?
The business end makes dismissal of all striking crew unrealistic but it would be nice to know that I would never have to be served by an individual who shared the above mindset.
But Mr McCluskey has dismissed Mr Williams's confidence, saying: "He has no way of knowing what weird and wondrous initiatives we might take should we engage in industrial action."
The business end makes dismissal of all striking crew unrealistic but it would be nice to know that I would never have to be served by an individual who shared the above mindset.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Deep South (Sussex)
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But Mr McCluskey has dismissed Mr Williams's confidence, saying: "He has no way of knowing what weird and wondrous initiatives we might take should we engage in industrial action."
Boy, does that mean they will abandon their priciples and start handing out hot towels?
I am flying BA in May and knowing Bassa, have total confidence that the flight will depart on time.
Boy, does that mean they will abandon their priciples and start handing out hot towels?
I am flying BA in May and knowing Bassa, have total confidence that the flight will depart on time.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why is it that BASSA members can never simply state what it would take to end this action?? They can't seem to do it.
Instead we hear hysterics about people losing their homes, etc., etc...
If someone is losing their home during this action its because of poor financial planning, not BA.
There are times I believe that there is simply no way to negotiate with this group of individuals. They can't articulate what they are willing to compromise on and refuse to accept the fact that BA is making financial progress specifically because of managements decisions to manage.
Instead we hear hysterics about people losing their homes, etc., etc...
If someone is losing their home during this action its because of poor financial planning, not BA.
There are times I believe that there is simply no way to negotiate with this group of individuals. They can't articulate what they are willing to compromise on and refuse to accept the fact that BA is making financial progress specifically because of managements decisions to manage.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: -)
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This looks very positive from BA:-___strike schedule
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Rugby
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I noticed at one point Victoria didn't seem to accept that BA's disciplinary system had investigated a blocked toilet accusation, suggest that one of the passengers did it, as well as graffitying the mirror. Perhaps her interviewee would have been betterr served by raising the desecration of crew bunk beds, then Ms Derbyshire would have had more difficulty in making her suggestion.
Earlier the flat denial of BASSA reps walking out of meetings by (I think) "Nickie" was indicative of the mindset of some union members, even though it is a fact and proved to be so in a court of law.
Earlier the flat denial of BASSA reps walking out of meetings by (I think) "Nickie" was indicative of the mindset of some union members, even though it is a fact and proved to be so in a court of law.