BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions IV
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The original complainant did apply to Unite directly, and was referred to BASSA.
This is why the dismissive and illegal response provided by BASSA needs to be referred back to Unite, and escalated to the auditors.
This is why the dismissive and illegal response provided by BASSA needs to be referred back to Unite, and escalated to the auditors.
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Lenspeak
The fact that this dispute has had more ballots than any other in recent memory should serve to tell the company something. Clearly something is wrong in the way that the company is being managed but also led.
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It seems to me that until the person does contact Unite to ask to see the accounts, then BASSA can play cat & mouse with the ill-advised complainant for months and months.
I'm fascinated by your choice of words - illadvised complainant ? Are you suggesting that BASSAWitch should drop her request to see BASSA's accounts ? Or are you implying that she has not been in reciept of good advice as to how to approach this subject ? If the latter I'm sure she would benefit from any pearls of wisdom you could bestow. From the sidelines I would say that it is very interesting understanding how a multi-million enterprise like the BASSA branch of Unite can get away with such an appalling lack of transparency in its accounting. I would have thought that in the spirit of an open organisation such as a trade union, the branch would have had accounts ready for inspection by the membership. After all, isn't that what socialism is supposed to be about - nobody exploits the workers.
I can't believe that any of the reps or branch officials have been making unjustified demands for expenses and that every last penny is accounted for.I rather think that since a request has been lodged to view the books, that the clock has started ticking regardless. BASSA may choose to ignore it, but then the branch executive's grasp of the law is not that great - I could cite the specifics but that would be boring. Unite may take a slightly different view.
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Colonel White said
My pearls of wisdom to her are to see a solicitor, take his advice (and ignore the "wisdom" that is abundant on chat rooms)
If the latter I'm sure she would benefit from any pearls of wisdom you could bestow.
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No need whatsoever for a solicitor at this stage, although now you mention it, it would be interesting to submit an application to CrewDefence for formal legal advice on the matter.
The legislation is crystal clear on this matter; branches MUST release accounting information to members of their affiliated Union within 28 days of a request to do so by a member of that Union.
End of.
Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992
The legislation is crystal clear on this matter; branches MUST release accounting information to members of their affiliated Union within 28 days of a request to do so by a member of that Union.
End of.
Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992
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NotLangley
Sorry. your reply whilst undoubtedly providing good advice, hedged around the question. Is it your contention that ex members of BASSA should not ask to see that accounts for the years that they were a member, or is it that you believe the individual requesting this information has not been well advised on how to go about it ?
BTW I totally agree that at some juncture it might be advisable to engage the services of a solicitor, but only at the point at which the union are pretty much in flagrant breach of their obligations.
Sorry. your reply whilst undoubtedly providing good advice, hedged around the question. Is it your contention that ex members of BASSA should not ask to see that accounts for the years that they were a member, or is it that you believe the individual requesting this information has not been well advised on how to go about it ?
BTW I totally agree that at some juncture it might be advisable to engage the services of a solicitor, but only at the point at which the union are pretty much in flagrant breach of their obligations.
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But restricted to those that are available
IMO She should have talked to a solicitor right at the very beginning.
A member of a trade union has a right to request access to any accounting records of the union which are available for inspection
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Non PC
I fully concede that my last post was Non PC but I was just relaying a business (man) perspective on the contrast of the 2 offerings. A later post highlighting the level of interference from BASSA at every attempt at BA management to respond to the market demand is astounding.
I have personal input from a former BA regional Captain who recalls how when they were occasionally allocated mainline CC he would experience the following -
Continuing the theme I am now in the EK Biz lounge at Mumbai. Not a shared effort like most of BA's outside of LHR but a dedicated full service oasis in the middle of chaos. I will now get on a new 777 300 ER and then onto the A380 800 into LHR - once again at less than half the price of BA CW!
Have also just done some internals in India and even those CC are in my opinion offering a far superior service ethic to the BASSA dinosaurs. Did I feel less safe? yes but that is mainly due to the increasing reports of Indian aircrew finding their way onto the flight deck with forged papers.
I have personal input from a former BA regional Captain who recalls how when they were occasionally allocated mainline CC he would experience the following -
- The senior CC often earned more than him
- The CC had special food as per their union agreement whilst he had his home made sandwiches
- At turnaround he and the FO had to move the business class curtain as this was outside the agreement for CC
- 3 was usually whilst CC were sat enjoying their special food as per agreement
Continuing the theme I am now in the EK Biz lounge at Mumbai. Not a shared effort like most of BA's outside of LHR but a dedicated full service oasis in the middle of chaos. I will now get on a new 777 300 ER and then onto the A380 800 into LHR - once again at less than half the price of BA CW!
Have also just done some internals in India and even those CC are in my opinion offering a far superior service ethic to the BASSA dinosaurs. Did I feel less safe? yes but that is mainly due to the increasing reports of Indian aircrew finding their way onto the flight deck with forged papers.
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It would IMHO be wise to step softly and wisely in pursuing the BASSA accounts. I have NO doubts it is the right course of action, absolutely none. But now a suggestion for a solicitor could/should/might be engaged is going to cost. My immediate point is - who will pay? Will it be BASSAwitch as the obvious choice. Or someone else? Either way I am sure you can see the point I make. I worry that Bw might get bitten - but then again she be very willing - but it should not be taken for granted.
VK has demonstrated a healthy knowledge of the whys and wherefore's. From there we must make sure that Bw is not going to do something she later regrets if a fat cost gets slapped on her.
Interesting days are ahead now that Unite will have to provide the accounts or face very serious consequences. BASSA should be worried too if they cannot be provided in the mandatory 28 days. The ballot might be distraction. It might even have to be withdrawn if the compliance is not met.
After reading the typical patronizing letter from McC to KW it is easy to deduce that he still living in a lifetime that was rife 40/50 years ago! He was a militant luddite then and is still one.
VK has demonstrated a healthy knowledge of the whys and wherefore's. From there we must make sure that Bw is not going to do something she later regrets if a fat cost gets slapped on her.
Interesting days are ahead now that Unite will have to provide the accounts or face very serious consequences. BASSA should be worried too if they cannot be provided in the mandatory 28 days. The ballot might be distraction. It might even have to be withdrawn if the compliance is not met.
After reading the typical patronizing letter from McC to KW it is easy to deduce that he still living in a lifetime that was rife 40/50 years ago! He was a militant luddite then and is still one.
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Who decides what is available?
VintageKrug gave a link to the "Trade Union and Labour relations Consolidation Act 1992" which contains these words
So I checked the reply that BASSAwitch had received and it contains these words
The bold type is by me to bring attention to the word "available".
IMO this means that the "28 days" is not something that will be met.
I apologise if I am the bringer of disappointing information.
A member of a trade union has a right to request access to any accounting records of the union which are available for inspection
We have been told by the branch secretary that the accounts you are seeking are not available at this time. If at any time in the future they do become available for members and ex members to view, we will endeavour to make that known to you.
IMO this means that the "28 days" is not something that will be met.
I apologise if I am the bringer of disappointing information.
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You also need to read sections 28 and 29 which specify which records are required to be kept.
The "which are available" refers to records older than 6 years which are not required to be kept.
29 Duty to keep records available for inspection.
(1)A trade union shall keep available for inspection from their creation until the end of the period of six years beginning with the 1st January following the end of the period to which they relate such of the records of the union, or of any branch or section of the union, as are, or purport to be, records required to be kept by the union under section 28.
This does not apply to records relating to periods before 1st January 1988.
(2)In section 30 (right of member to access to accounting records)—
(a)references to a union’s accounting records are to any such records as are mentioned in subsection (1) above, and
(b)references to records available for inspection are to records which the union is required by that subsection to keep available for inspection.
(3)The expiry of the period mentioned in subsection (1) above does not affect the duty of a trade union to comply with a request for access made under section 30 before the end of that period.
The "which are available" refers to records older than 6 years which are not required to be kept.
29 Duty to keep records available for inspection.
(1)A trade union shall keep available for inspection from their creation until the end of the period of six years beginning with the 1st January following the end of the period to which they relate such of the records of the union, or of any branch or section of the union, as are, or purport to be, records required to be kept by the union under section 28.
This does not apply to records relating to periods before 1st January 1988.
(2)In section 30 (right of member to access to accounting records)—
(a)references to a union’s accounting records are to any such records as are mentioned in subsection (1) above, and
(b)references to records available for inspection are to records which the union is required by that subsection to keep available for inspection.
(3)The expiry of the period mentioned in subsection (1) above does not affect the duty of a trade union to comply with a request for access made under section 30 before the end of that period.
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The fact that this dispute has had more ballots than any other in recent memory should serve to tell the company something.
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cdtaylor_nats said
With respect, I fundamentally disagree._ I would employ a solicitor for this job.
Since, as I understand it, "You" refers to Notlangley, then I rely on the dictum
You also need to read sections 28 and 29 which specify which records are required to be kept.
Since, as I understand it, "You" refers to Notlangley, then I rely on the dictum
A person who is his own solicitor has a fool for a client.
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Haymaker:
Apologies if this point has been raised before (but I couldn't see it, on a quick search).
We have all been reminded many times that there must be different reasons for a fresh ballot so, technically, has the initial dispute ended, enabling BASSA now to hold their elections?
Alternatively, is this an indication that the current ballot is connected to previous ones?
He doesn't seem too distraught with the current situation. Remember, the extension to his term of office (authorised by a 'democratic' show of hands) and therefore his branch remuneration only lasts as long as the dispute does. He would then have to seek re-election, which he cannot do as he is no longer a BA employee.
We have all been reminded many times that there must be different reasons for a fresh ballot so, technically, has the initial dispute ended, enabling BASSA now to hold their elections?
Alternatively, is this an indication that the current ballot is connected to previous ones?
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As a slight aside, I have spent many hours of life in commerce correcting the advice and suggested actions by Solicitors. Finding a solicitor expert in the intricacies of this legislation who could provide reliable advice will be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. I have no idea, and can't be bothered to trawl though the TU Consolidation Act to take a view on the precise legal process on inspection of "available" union accounts.
However, even if there is a legal technicality that a court found obviated the requirement for BASSA to produce accounts on demand to a Unite member, the PR disaster that would potentially ensue from failing to be transparent (which IMO is the only moral approach) would be potentially fatal. If the BASSA committee had concerns about certain tabloid reporting during the strike, they ain't seem nothing yet if this goes a certain way. DH in particular was not backward in overtly attacking certain reporters, and the media can have a long memory.
However, even if there is a legal technicality that a court found obviated the requirement for BASSA to produce accounts on demand to a Unite member, the PR disaster that would potentially ensue from failing to be transparent (which IMO is the only moral approach) would be potentially fatal. If the BASSA committee had concerns about certain tabloid reporting during the strike, they ain't seem nothing yet if this goes a certain way. DH in particular was not backward in overtly attacking certain reporters, and the media can have a long memory.
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Hipennine
My experience mirrors yours somewhat. I ended up thinking Solicitor only when Professional Indemnity insurance was a necessity and banned them except in extremis otherwise. The thinking instead was, 'we can't afford one'. Never had a problem personally.
The excerpts on this thread make everything very clear in my view:
1. Union need to have accounting records available as defined.
2. Members can look at available records.
3. Union have admitted they are in default of 1. above.
4. Proceed directly to Certification Officer, Auditors etc. due to 3. above.
It is that simple.
The excerpts on this thread make everything very clear in my view:
1. Union need to have accounting records available as defined.
2. Members can look at available records.
3. Union have admitted they are in default of 1. above.
4. Proceed directly to Certification Officer, Auditors etc. due to 3. above.
It is that simple.
Last edited by mrpony; 2nd Mar 2011 at 09:43.
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If they had said that they would never have accounting records available, then yes. As it stands it is about the number 28 and that number has not passed yet.
If and when the forum member who asked for disclosure visits the branch in question after 28 days and is still not shown the requested information, then that will be a different situation.
If and when the forum member who asked for disclosure visits the branch in question after 28 days and is still not shown the requested information, then that will be a different situation.