Ryanair pax refuse to leave a/c ( Merged)
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Pardon me while I remain a bit cynical about this story and am waiting to hear specifics.
Its hard to imagine any flight crew abandoning an airplane filled with passengers.
The cheekiest part of this story in my opinion is the passengers complaining about no service, restrooms, etc., when they are REFUSING TO DISEMBARK. Did they expect the Cabin Crew to continue their service and go about the business of selling water and lottery tickets???
There are avenues available for compensation and complaint after a flight but while sitting in that metal tube you give yourself up to the authority of the Captain...period.
Why do people have such difficulty with that concept?
Its hard to imagine any flight crew abandoning an airplane filled with passengers.
The cheekiest part of this story in my opinion is the passengers complaining about no service, restrooms, etc., when they are REFUSING TO DISEMBARK. Did they expect the Cabin Crew to continue their service and go about the business of selling water and lottery tickets???
There are avenues available for compensation and complaint after a flight but while sitting in that metal tube you give yourself up to the authority of the Captain...period.
Why do people have such difficulty with that concept?
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Joao De Silva:
We can go around and around regarding the technicalities but I am sure that AT NO TIME do the passengers have authority or legal control over the aircraft.
If you're told to disembark then move your glutamus maximus off the plane. You can call your lawyer (or the press) when you're in the terminal.
We can go around and around regarding the technicalities but I am sure that AT NO TIME do the passengers have authority or legal control over the aircraft.
If you're told to disembark then move your glutamus maximus off the plane. You can call your lawyer (or the press) when you're in the terminal.
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The cheekiest part of this story in my opinion is the passengers complaining about no service, restrooms, etc., when they are REFUSING TO DISEMBARK. Did they expect the Cabin Crew to continue their service and go about the business of selling water and lottery tickets???
There are avenues available for compensation and complaint after a flight but while sitting in that metal tube you give yourself up to the authority of the Captain...period.
There are avenues available for compensation and complaint after a flight but while sitting in that metal tube you give yourself up to the authority of the Captain...period.
For example, can you arrest a passenger or forcibly remove them in an arm lock?
Can you prevent the police visiting the flight deck and breath testing your FO?
Diplome made an absolute statement that does not hold true in the real world, with the doors open (I have friends who are airline captains and they are quite sensitive to this.)
Th epassengers stayed (I imagine) because they perceived they may get a better deal by remaining onboard and they were upset and also acting irrationally.
Understand that I am not condoning their behavour.
Last edited by Joao da Silva; 19th Nov 2010 at 12:07.
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We can go around and around regarding the technicalities but I am sure that AT NO TIME do the passengers have authority or legal control over the aircraft.
If you're told to disembark then move your glutamus maximus off the plane. .
If you're told to disembark then move your glutamus maximus off the plane. .
At no time have I said that the passengers have any legal authority or control over the aircraft, so stop trying to change the debate please.
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Your second point, I honestly don't know and have never considered it. I'm thinking about a conflict of authority now. However, I'm not sure I would want to prevent them breath testing the FO because, either way, I'd like to know, assuming the police had reasonable suspicion.
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LSM
Your captain's authority does not include the power of arrest, as you confirm by saying "I can have someone arrested" but you can make a ctizen's arrest, the difference being that you must have evidence of a crime and a passenger acting very aggressively is providing that, where as an authorised person can arrest on suspicion (e.g. a policeman.)
Having said that, I can do the same thing from seat 6F, without your permission (doors open.)
If you try to stop the policemen, you will be arrested at some stage. I am a little surprised that an airline captain is not aware of this, as airlines normally cover this type of thing in command courses.
In flight, the authority is a very different manner, e.g. AA the recent ''we are landing move all the traffic out of our way" indicent at JFK and the captain can override other laws in the interests of safety.
I'm not downgrading the captain's authority and recognise that this is an industry concern, but am just pointing out that the authority varies between air and ground.
Your captain's authority does not include the power of arrest, as you confirm by saying "I can have someone arrested" but you can make a ctizen's arrest, the difference being that you must have evidence of a crime and a passenger acting very aggressively is providing that, where as an authorised person can arrest on suspicion (e.g. a policeman.)
Having said that, I can do the same thing from seat 6F, without your permission (doors open.)
If you try to stop the policemen, you will be arrested at some stage. I am a little surprised that an airline captain is not aware of this, as airlines normally cover this type of thing in command courses.
In flight, the authority is a very different manner, e.g. AA the recent ''we are landing move all the traffic out of our way" indicent at JFK and the captain can override other laws in the interests of safety.
I'm not downgrading the captain's authority and recognise that this is an industry concern, but am just pointing out that the authority varies between air and ground.
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If you try to stop the policemen, you will be arrested at some stage. I am a little surprised that an airline captain is not aware of this, as airlines normally cover this type of thing in command courses.
The point I didn't make is that I will try and prevent the police entering my flight deck by asking them to conduct the breath test elsewhere (out of sight of the passengers). If they didn't agree then there would be a bit of a stand off. My point would be that it's a flight safety issue if I allow unqualified people who are unfamiliar with aircraft into the flight deck. Flight safety is where I have absolute authority, on the ground or in the air.
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Your captain's authority does not include the power of arrest ... but you can make a ctizen's arrest,
Joao, for your info of course you have the power of arrest as long as we're talking UK law and UK juristiction, Captain's "power" doesn't enter into it. How the hell could citizens arrest exit without it? In fact you have exactly the same powers of arrest as any police officer, and they have no more or less than you do. They just have more training in the ins and outs of the business, and certain extra powers, but arrest is the same. They are citizens too, remember; servants thereof, as they sometimes need reminding.
As Captain of an aircraft or ship you too have certain extra powers, once the doors are shut. They do not exist with doors open though, as then the local civil power is deemed to be in charge.
Leastaways, that's my understanding.
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It is my understanding that:
"Authority of commander of an aircraft
141 - Every person in an aircraft must obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or property carried in the aircraft, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation."
AND
"Acting in a disruptive manner
142 - A person must not while in an aircraft:
(a) use any threatening, abusive or insulting words towards a member of the crew of the aircraft;
(b) behave in a threatening, abusive, insulting or disorderly manner towards a
member of the crew of the aircraft; or
(c) intentionally interfere with the performance by a member of the crew of the aircraft of the crew member's duties."
Link: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf
In essence, a crew member who is PIC of a UK registered aircraft, not only has the authority to ensure flight safety, but would be required to take action on any issue involving the aircraft's safety, whether this be a disruptive passenger, damage to property or indeed a police officer on the flight deck (which, in theory, could cause any PAX alarm, thus endangering the safety of the aircraft).
Just my twopenceworth
"Authority of commander of an aircraft
141 - Every person in an aircraft must obey all lawful commands which the commander of that aircraft may give for the purpose of securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons or property carried in the aircraft, or the safety, efficiency or regularity of air navigation."
AND
"Acting in a disruptive manner
142 - A person must not while in an aircraft:
(a) use any threatening, abusive or insulting words towards a member of the crew of the aircraft;
(b) behave in a threatening, abusive, insulting or disorderly manner towards a
member of the crew of the aircraft; or
(c) intentionally interfere with the performance by a member of the crew of the aircraft of the crew member's duties."
Link: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf
In essence, a crew member who is PIC of a UK registered aircraft, not only has the authority to ensure flight safety, but would be required to take action on any issue involving the aircraft's safety, whether this be a disruptive passenger, damage to property or indeed a police officer on the flight deck (which, in theory, could cause any PAX alarm, thus endangering the safety of the aircraft).
Just my twopenceworth
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Justin Cyder-Belvoir
"The best alternate for BVA is CRL as it is a Ryanair base with handling, engineering and crew availabilty." Not the best, just the most convenient for the airline.
Last edited by willl05; 19th Nov 2010 at 22:04. Reason: did not specify reference
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I don't know. Maybe they were already full of diverts and couldn't 'handle' any more passengers - I've been sent around from short final because the airport had reached capacity shortly beforehand and ended up further away than the primary divert. Tow bars are specific to the type so if you have to park nose in your aircraft is stuck there until you can get a towbar in.
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You are all missing a wonderful opportunity here.
Instead of this being a Ryanair-bashing thread, it should be a French-bashing thread.
Most of the passengers were French. The passengers were rude (well yes, they were mostly French).
Just to change the target - all this ire is the result of a newspaper report! Who here even believes the date in a newspaper without checking a calendar?
Instead of this being a Ryanair-bashing thread, it should be a French-bashing thread.
Most of the passengers were French. The passengers were rude (well yes, they were mostly French).
Just to change the target - all this ire is the result of a newspaper report! Who here even believes the date in a newspaper without checking a calendar?
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My! That's a contradiction if ever I saw one!
Joao, for your info of course you have the power of arrest as long as we're talking UK law and UK juristiction, Captain's "power" doesn't enter into it. How the hell could citizens arrest exit without it? In fact you have exactly the same powers of arrest as any police officer, and they have no more or less than you do. They just have more training in the ins and outs of the business, and certain extra powers, but arrest is the same. They are citizens too, remember; servants thereof, as they sometimes need reminding.
Joao, for your info of course you have the power of arrest as long as we're talking UK law and UK juristiction, Captain's "power" doesn't enter into it. How the hell could citizens arrest exit without it? In fact you have exactly the same powers of arrest as any police officer, and they have no more or less than you do. They just have more training in the ins and outs of the business, and certain extra powers, but arrest is the same. They are citizens too, remember; servants thereof, as they sometimes need reminding.
Succinctly, the citizen must have reasonable grounds to believe that an indictable offence is being or has been committed, whereas a constable only has to have a reasonable suspicion.
If you perform a citizens arrest and an indictable offence has not been committed, you could find yourself in all sorts of trouble, as well as being subject to the person you have 'arrested', using reasonable force against you in self defence.
All I was saying is that an aircraft captain cannot arrest someone on suspicion, as they do not have this power.
Pilot YGC, Lord Spandex Master is an airline captain and he says he would negotiate a meeting with a constable off the aircraft; in my opinion this is a reasonable and wise view. However, if the aircraft is not in flight, it is non sequitur that the captain can overrule local authorities.
When the aircraft is in flight, it is another matter completely and the captain has very high levels of authority, including choosing to break other laws to ensure the safety of aircraft and occupants.
This whole diversion came from Diplome making an incorrect assertion, perhaps it is now time to return to the theme?
