BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III
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Do I take it that everyone now has ST back (albeit with a recent DoJ)? If this is the case, why are they considering strike action?
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Re the Unite survey, there's a few bits of info I'd like to see included, such as -
1. Did they send surveys to BA staff in the proportion of any one department to the total employees? Ie, CC are about 13000 out of 40000 plus, so about 3500 CC should have got surveys, and so on for other depts.
2. From which depts did the 1900 odd replies come? Ie, were they mainly CC, or spread evenly in proportion across areas? Given the number of respondents that reported abuse from passengers, which only really CC or terminal staff see, I'd guess the respondents were mainly CC, who have been told repeatedly by BASSA for the last couple of years that BA is bullying them, so they would perhaps be more likely to interpret 'management' as in monitoring, leave requests, promotion - or the lack of it - as bullying.
I'd like to know more about the underlying the statistics.
The full report states 11000 surveys issued, but the headline article on the Unite webpage simply says 'The confidential survey of nearly 2,000 BA employees', which is misleading to say the least.
1. Did they send surveys to BA staff in the proportion of any one department to the total employees? Ie, CC are about 13000 out of 40000 plus, so about 3500 CC should have got surveys, and so on for other depts.
2. From which depts did the 1900 odd replies come? Ie, were they mainly CC, or spread evenly in proportion across areas? Given the number of respondents that reported abuse from passengers, which only really CC or terminal staff see, I'd guess the respondents were mainly CC, who have been told repeatedly by BASSA for the last couple of years that BA is bullying them, so they would perhaps be more likely to interpret 'management' as in monitoring, leave requests, promotion - or the lack of it - as bullying.
I'd like to know more about the underlying the statistics.
The full report states 11000 surveys issued, but the headline article on the Unite webpage simply says 'The confidential survey of nearly 2,000 BA employees', which is misleading to say the least.
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Unite had the e-mail addresses of 11,055 employees. _And they sent a survey to these 11,055. _The number looks like it is just cabin crew - but it could be wider as just an observer says.
Included in this 11,055 was an unknown number of non-members of Unite. _How did Unite come to possess e-mail addresses of non-members? _If they are ex-members, by what right has Unite retained their data for a survey that is related to the current strike vote?
The number of responses (1,905) is such a poor response that those who by self-selection did respond are likely to be untypical of the 11,055.
My guess is that one of the ways that the mix is different is that the number of non-members of Unite who received this survey was much higher than the sample suggests. _ I would suppose that many non-members considered the survey to be invasive. _We can only guess - we will never know.
Included in this 11,055 was an unknown number of non-members of Unite. _How did Unite come to possess e-mail addresses of non-members? _If they are ex-members, by what right has Unite retained their data for a survey that is related to the current strike vote?
The number of responses (1,905) is such a poor response that those who by self-selection did respond are likely to be untypical of the 11,055.
My guess is that one of the ways that the mix is different is that the number of non-members of Unite who received this survey was much higher than the sample suggests. _ I would suppose that many non-members considered the survey to be invasive. _We can only guess - we will never know.
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The survey received responses ..... and the vast majority (98.6 per cent) were also Unite members
quotation from:- __link
Last edited by notlangley; 11th Jan 2011 at 01:02. Reason: straightening the grammar
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I cannot prove anything that is in this post.
Unite sent the questionnaire (about bullying) to cabin crew and to cabin crew only._ Unite sent out 11,055 questionnaires._ Some CC Unite members were not sent questionnaires because they are not on e-mail - maybe 5, maybe 500 who use T-witter and SMS but have no e-mail address._ Another discrepancy is that the 11,055 included some ex-members of Unite (they were included because of incompetence by BASSA in updating the data base of members)._ 27 recipients of this questionnaire were angry that they were still on the books of BASSA as members of Unite - these 27 returned the questionnaire, uncompleted but with a letter stapled to the questionnaire demanding that their details be removed from the data base.
Now someone who is completely ignorant of Unions and airlines is given the job of writing words to change dry numbers into compelling words and phrases._ This is the chap who writes
This chap said that 1,905 responses were received - he added the 27 because "after all" these 27 had returned the questionnaire._ No-one checked or edited what he wrote.
Unite sent the questionnaire (about bullying) to cabin crew and to cabin crew only._ Unite sent out 11,055 questionnaires._ Some CC Unite members were not sent questionnaires because they are not on e-mail - maybe 5, maybe 500 who use T-witter and SMS but have no e-mail address._ Another discrepancy is that the 11,055 included some ex-members of Unite (they were included because of incompetence by BASSA in updating the data base of members)._ 27 recipients of this questionnaire were angry that they were still on the books of BASSA as members of Unite - these 27 returned the questionnaire, uncompleted but with a letter stapled to the questionnaire demanding that their details be removed from the data base.
Now someone who is completely ignorant of Unions and airlines is given the job of writing words to change dry numbers into compelling words and phrases._ This is the chap who writes
and the vast majority (98.6 per cent) were also Unite members, highlighting the high level of union density at the airline.
Last edited by notlangley; 11th Jan 2011 at 08:53. Reason: The word "Twitter" was changed by text editor to "PPRuNe"
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Reading Unites little flyer gives a wonderfully distorted view of the company which, in my humble opinion, is an excellent company to work for.
Vary rarely, if ever, does the flyer use the phrase 'of those who replied' when using statistics pertaining to bullying. The actual figures when taken against the total workforce drop from the almost 50% that Unite headline to less than 5% of the total workforce.
Considering that less than 2000 even bothered with such a waste of time survey one might realistically conclude that those who could be bothered were those with the biggest axe to grind.
Interestingly one persons view on what constitutes bullying can differ radically from the next persons. For example it is the Captains responsibility to give feedback to the crew and the First Officer on performance. This may take the case of negative feedback where performance is lacking and thus require constructive critisism. This has often been construed as bullying by certain individuals where the recipient refuses to see inadequacies in their performance and refuses to believe it the Captains position to manage the crew. No bullying intended as it is laid down as a responsibility of the Captain in JPM's. However the CC report goes in and the statistics fly.
The atmosphere within the aircraft can, very occasionally, be 'interesting' and thus anything said or done that contravenes certain recipients somewhat low threshold gets reported. Such as the report from the back that a junior CC member considered a 'heavy landing' in atrocious weather thus reported it to the company without bothering to tell the Captain (it was nowhere near but, hey, what do the flight crew know ;-) ). It makes the day at work fun! My prime aim is to ensure that any discussions are left off the aircraft and that passengers remain throughout the flight the number one priority. I am pleased to say that this approach has worked well so far and discussions pertaining to the current dispute of a contentious nature onboard the aircraft are not allowed.
I love DH's ramblings, perhaps he will overtake J K Rowling in the fiction charts?
Vary rarely, if ever, does the flyer use the phrase 'of those who replied' when using statistics pertaining to bullying. The actual figures when taken against the total workforce drop from the almost 50% that Unite headline to less than 5% of the total workforce.
Considering that less than 2000 even bothered with such a waste of time survey one might realistically conclude that those who could be bothered were those with the biggest axe to grind.
Interestingly one persons view on what constitutes bullying can differ radically from the next persons. For example it is the Captains responsibility to give feedback to the crew and the First Officer on performance. This may take the case of negative feedback where performance is lacking and thus require constructive critisism. This has often been construed as bullying by certain individuals where the recipient refuses to see inadequacies in their performance and refuses to believe it the Captains position to manage the crew. No bullying intended as it is laid down as a responsibility of the Captain in JPM's. However the CC report goes in and the statistics fly.
The atmosphere within the aircraft can, very occasionally, be 'interesting' and thus anything said or done that contravenes certain recipients somewhat low threshold gets reported. Such as the report from the back that a junior CC member considered a 'heavy landing' in atrocious weather thus reported it to the company without bothering to tell the Captain (it was nowhere near but, hey, what do the flight crew know ;-) ). It makes the day at work fun! My prime aim is to ensure that any discussions are left off the aircraft and that passengers remain throughout the flight the number one priority. I am pleased to say that this approach has worked well so far and discussions pertaining to the current dispute of a contentious nature onboard the aircraft are not allowed.
I love DH's ramblings, perhaps he will overtake J K Rowling in the fiction charts?
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My husband, who is a member of Unite, works for BA but is not CC, did know about the survey, but hadn't heard the result. He doesn't know any CC, and didn't get the survey himself, so presumably other colleagues may have received it and there was conversation about it. That would mean it was sent out wider than just CC. The actual report does infer that, as it refers in it's conclusion in the first line 'Almost one in every two workers at British Airways has been bullied' not just CC.
I know a bit about surveys, methodology, and how to draw conclusions from statistics, and the union's conclusion extrapolates that just because 75% of voluntary respondents had been or had witnessed bullying, that percentage can be deemed for the whole workforce, is just plain wrong.
If there had been a proportional issue of surveys amongst all departments, and everybody surveyed had to respond, then that kind of extrapolation could be justified, but not otherwise.
It's also fairly easy to devise a survey, and ask the appropriate questions, to get the replies you want, to 'prove' something that you wanted to prove at the outset. We know Unite have been accusing BA of bullying for some time, and asking for the very things they set out in the recommendations at the end, which are -
Bullying to be taken seriously at British Airways
An end to the culture of intimidation, imposition and union busting
Recognition of union reps and facilities time
An independent review of sackings of crew and reps
A new corporate strategy that treats all members of staff equally and fairly and where all have a role to play and contribution to make to the business
I know a bit about surveys, methodology, and how to draw conclusions from statistics, and the union's conclusion extrapolates that just because 75% of voluntary respondents had been or had witnessed bullying, that percentage can be deemed for the whole workforce, is just plain wrong.
If there had been a proportional issue of surveys amongst all departments, and everybody surveyed had to respond, then that kind of extrapolation could be justified, but not otherwise.
It's also fairly easy to devise a survey, and ask the appropriate questions, to get the replies you want, to 'prove' something that you wanted to prove at the outset. We know Unite have been accusing BA of bullying for some time, and asking for the very things they set out in the recommendations at the end, which are -
Bullying to be taken seriously at British Airways
An end to the culture of intimidation, imposition and union busting
Recognition of union reps and facilities time
An independent review of sackings of crew and reps
A new corporate strategy that treats all members of staff equally and fairly and where all have a role to play and contribution to make to the business
Pity there wasn't a question as to whether staff had been felt bullied by striking CC (and the union) when they hadn't themselves gone on strike 
Maybe that accounts for some of the 'other' boxes ticked.
Maybe that accounts for some of the 'other' boxes ticked.I doubt BA will pay it much attention, but it's something Unite can quote to the media as part of it's PR.
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I know a bit about surveys, methodology, and how to draw conclusions from statistics, and the union's conclusion extrapolates that just because 75% of voluntary respondents had been or had witnessed bullying, that percentage can be deemed for the whole workforce, is just plain wrong.
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Ermm..
....I'm an outsider to BA and the aviation industry (I'm in the oil). Whichever way you look at it, this doesn't make good reading for British Airways. Regardless of the numbers, can BA management be happy that 5% (as somebody on here stipulated the 2000 repliers constitute) of their employees feel the need to reply to a survey and answer in such damning terms?
Reading the vitriolic posts that's been posted about the cabin crew on this thread and other threads on this site, I can't say I'm surprised that they feel they're being bullied, harrased and victimised.
I've sat back and read this site from afar, until today. To be quite frank, there's been some absolute drivel on this post. Someone going on about the Reformation for heavens sake!
Take a step back, for a day or so, and re-read your posts. Cringeworthy!
Reading the vitriolic posts that's been posted about the cabin crew on this thread and other threads on this site, I can't say I'm surprised that they feel they're being bullied, harrased and victimised.
I've sat back and read this site from afar, until today. To be quite frank, there's been some absolute drivel on this post. Someone going on about the Reformation for heavens sake!
Take a step back, for a day or so, and re-read your posts. Cringeworthy!
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Thanks Top Bunk for posting DH ramblings, I really like this bit....
"It is now evident all along that Walsh has
only ever been interested in bringing BASSA to its knees and even early on
a deal everyone could have lived with, was there but Walsh chose to move
the goalposts."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Derek scupper that offer, so nobody got the opportunity to vote on it!
"It is now evident all along that Walsh has
only ever been interested in bringing BASSA to its knees and even early on
a deal everyone could have lived with, was there but Walsh chose to move
the goalposts."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Derek scupper that offer, so nobody got the opportunity to vote on it!
Last edited by button44; 11th Jan 2011 at 16:45. Reason: sorry, wrote Dennis, meant Derek of course.
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Well, Moses, this group trying to pull the heart strings portraying themselves as downtrodden and abused is part of the same group who evidently brought the house down cheering when a former cabin crew member sitting at the top table during the January 10 BASSA meeting with the General Secretary of Unite was sporting the now infamous (from Bedfont piccies) pair of Y-front undies with Willie Walsh emblazoned on them.
Does that in any way temper your viewpoint of what BA might be dealing with here?
It isn't much of a stretch to imagine folks who find this crass behavior acceptable viewing front line managing from a manager as harrassment--especially as BA is trying to turn around a decades long system of the BASSA tail wagging the BA dog.
Does that in any way temper your viewpoint of what BA might be dealing with here?
It isn't much of a stretch to imagine folks who find this crass behavior acceptable viewing front line managing from a manager as harrassment--especially as BA is trying to turn around a decades long system of the BASSA tail wagging the BA dog.
Last edited by baggersup; 11th Jan 2011 at 18:05.
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Moses,
Thanks for that. I am always trying to explain to people that most cabin crew are just as they always were, dedicated and professional, even those that have striked. It is a small number that have lost the plot.
However you are right, there are some quite horrid postings on here and more so on the CC threads and that does upset people like me and it detracts from sensible debate.
It is quite obvious that some of the flight crew that post here never liked cabin crew, even before this all started. However I am pleased to confirm that in the real world of flying on our aircraft and away from pprune most pilots are great to talk to and work with, so the postings here do not really reflect reality.
Thanks for that. I am always trying to explain to people that most cabin crew are just as they always were, dedicated and professional, even those that have striked. It is a small number that have lost the plot.
However you are right, there are some quite horrid postings on here and more so on the CC threads and that does upset people like me and it detracts from sensible debate.
It is quite obvious that some of the flight crew that post here never liked cabin crew, even before this all started. However I am pleased to confirm that in the real world of flying on our aircraft and away from pprune most pilots are great to talk to and work with, so the postings here do not really reflect reality.
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Re : that survey...
Way back when I were just stating out, I was deeply involved in the advertising and later market research business. The survey from Unite is so flawed as to be laughable.
To kick off with. It claims to have mailed 11000 members, yet there is no breakdown on the composition of that sample by grade or work area, no indication of what proportion it formed of the overall Unite membership within BA and no correlation with the overall BA workforce. There is no indication of the dates when this survey was conducted, only a date when the results were calculated.
Next, it bases all its results on the 10% or so of returns that it got. Now people rarely respond to surveys if they have had a good experience, invariably it is a way to register a complaint. So it is unsurprising that the respondent's views were mainly negative.
Looking at the questions themselves. They are not structured in clear unemotive terms. The main emphasis seems to be to determine whether bullyng is coming from BA management, The lack of impartiality in the questions is amazing.
The conclusions are deeply flawed. It would be the same as asking children in a primary school if Santa was real, taking the positive responses and then claiming they show that all children aged 5-18 believe in Santa.
So to sum up, the methodology is half baked, the sampling seriously flawed, the statistical basis completely absent, the questions skewed and the conclusions drawn not supported by the figures. If the press release had been an ad, it woud have been banned by the ASA for being misleading. Unlike the catfood ad, they don't even have the decency to annotate the figures with the statement 'of those who expressed a view' when referring to any of the figures. To claim that this 'survey' represent the views, opinions and experiences of 40,000 BA staff is sheer hogwash.
To kick off with. It claims to have mailed 11000 members, yet there is no breakdown on the composition of that sample by grade or work area, no indication of what proportion it formed of the overall Unite membership within BA and no correlation with the overall BA workforce. There is no indication of the dates when this survey was conducted, only a date when the results were calculated.
Next, it bases all its results on the 10% or so of returns that it got. Now people rarely respond to surveys if they have had a good experience, invariably it is a way to register a complaint. So it is unsurprising that the respondent's views were mainly negative.
Looking at the questions themselves. They are not structured in clear unemotive terms. The main emphasis seems to be to determine whether bullyng is coming from BA management, The lack of impartiality in the questions is amazing.
The conclusions are deeply flawed. It would be the same as asking children in a primary school if Santa was real, taking the positive responses and then claiming they show that all children aged 5-18 believe in Santa.
So to sum up, the methodology is half baked, the sampling seriously flawed, the statistical basis completely absent, the questions skewed and the conclusions drawn not supported by the figures. If the press release had been an ad, it woud have been banned by the ASA for being misleading. Unlike the catfood ad, they don't even have the decency to annotate the figures with the statement 'of those who expressed a view' when referring to any of the figures. To claim that this 'survey' represent the views, opinions and experiences of 40,000 BA staff is sheer hogwash.
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Drastic action
It's been suggested on here as a "nuclear" option a few times, but here is a tangible example of one option available:
Fire brigade chiefs are preparing to sack all 5,500 London firefighters despite their decision to end industrial action.
The Tory-controlled London Fire Authority is expected to vote at an emergency meeting on Thursday to force all frontline staff onto new contracts with changed shift patterns.
The Standard understands that the authority, led by Brian Coleman, has run out of patience with the Fire Brigades Union after almost six years of talks and will press ahead with its “fallback option” of re-employing staff under new terms and conditions.
The Tory-controlled London Fire Authority is expected to vote at an emergency meeting on Thursday to force all frontline staff onto new contracts with changed shift patterns.
The Standard understands that the authority, led by Brian Coleman, has run out of patience with the Fire Brigades Union after almost six years of talks and will press ahead with its “fallback option” of re-employing staff under new terms and conditions.
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Hmm, Brian Coleman brings up some interesting results if you search for his name on YouTube! If you also search for Dobo, there is an interesting piece on section 188 of TULcRA 1992. However it does contain strong language that some viewers may find offensive.
