BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III
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p.s. Hey Mr. Tripp, didn't I once work for you? Some of the heyday ex-PanAm-ers on here must pause when they see your name pop up. 
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Baggersup
You are so right about Pan Am. When I worked for AA in the early 70's Pan Am was an icon. Now, what is left of it is part of Delta.
You knew they were in trouble when they sold their building in NYC. Unruly labor problems and poor management did them in. No one ever thought Pan Am would fail because they had been around for so long.
Beware! It can happen to any airline.
You knew they were in trouble when they sold their building in NYC. Unruly labor problems and poor management did them in. No one ever thought Pan Am would fail because they had been around for so long.
Beware! It can happen to any airline.
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... because British Airways have a notorious track record for delaying [negotiations]
How the members can claim support for these idiots that run the cabin crew unions amazes me.
Still, at least
So where do we go now?
We believe it is appropriate to offer you, the membership, the opportunity to tell us if we are not representing your best interests. Call it a vote of confidence if you will.
We believe it is appropriate to offer you, the membership, the opportunity to tell us if we are not representing your best interests. Call it a vote of confidence if you will.
Got to say though, that the various Unite factions do give good entertainment value. They certainly come up with stunts that take you by surprise!
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Warning! Thread Drift - TWA trumps PA & BOAC
Baggersup, I can't let this remark go unchallenged:
When those two airlines were flying, I was a very frequent trans-Atlantic pax - and IMO, TWA beat both "in service" across the ocean. I'm not knocking BOAC or PA, but while you may have been looking to beat the other in service, TWA was eating your lunch on the USA-LHR routes! To be fair, I think PA had the better intra-Europe service under the Fifth Freedom and cabotage rights that existed following WW2).
Remember, those were the days of government set fares. The only lure to the pax was in-flight service, the schedule, and the most modern (and fastest) aircraft.
Mods, sorry for continuing the thread drift
We were always aware that BOAC and PanAm were the two airlines to beat in service.
Remember, those were the days of government set fares. The only lure to the pax was in-flight service, the schedule, and the most modern (and fastest) aircraft.
Mods, sorry for continuing the thread drift
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I'm not sure there is an "all in" for BA without a strike ballot being issued.
Seriously doubt BA would sack strikers who made the decision by ballot. May be legal but would create one hell of a backlash.
manintheback
You, Sir, are a wimp. I have never worked for BA, but I say that they will win through, despite the shouts of BASSA, and your booking would be safe. Show some mettle, man, otherwise why post on here?
You, Sir, are a wimp. I have never worked for BA, but I say that they will win through, despite the shouts of BASSA, and your booking would be safe. Show some mettle, man, otherwise why post on here?
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Amicus statement
On basis that only 40 AMICUS members claimed strike pay, versus 7000 BASSA members, our democratic right to an opinion and our ability to represent you is extinguished.
Question, How many BA cabin crew are in this branch of the Union, and how many Amicus reps are there?
Seems to me, that if only 40 members went on strike, then the hard line Amicus is taking is unlikely to be representaitve?
If you don't want us to maintain the position we have taken, or indeed if you wish us to adopt another approach please communicate with us via our website.
which is hardly a fair way to guage support of its members?
They want members to expose their views on this matter publicly on the Amicus website - I doubt many would dare do this. And if not many do, then Amicus will carry on, thinking it has the support of its membership? absurd!
Only way to fairly guage opinion is a secret ballot of its members.
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If in BA’s eyes BASSA have become largely irrelevant then I’m unable to find the word that would describe how they view Amicus.
Let them huff and puff, few care, I most certainly dont.
I'm more alarmed at Unite and their inability to control this situation. I have always known that BASSA were clowns, you only needed to read anything they put out to know that you were dealing with people of limited ability.
Unite however, as I say, are the shock for me. I would say the super union experiment has failed, there isnt any central strategy at work here it’s just chaos that has now descended into an undemocratic farce where a few reps get to decide there will be no ballot, having previously promised there would be, this is Unite’s branch, it is they who are tainted by all this just as much as the BASSA circus.
Let them huff and puff, few care, I most certainly dont.
I'm more alarmed at Unite and their inability to control this situation. I have always known that BASSA were clowns, you only needed to read anything they put out to know that you were dealing with people of limited ability.
Unite however, as I say, are the shock for me. I would say the super union experiment has failed, there isnt any central strategy at work here it’s just chaos that has now descended into an undemocratic farce where a few reps get to decide there will be no ballot, having previously promised there would be, this is Unite’s branch, it is they who are tainted by all this just as much as the BASSA circus.
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Does anyone know the number of Cabin Crew represented by Amicus? I've read it somewhere but can't locate the post.
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I would not be surprised if BA responds to TW's plea for a revised offer with a terse instruction to get Unite's own house in order first.
Does the number of strike pay claims by CC89 members (a mere 40) exclude claims from the reps themselves?
Does the number of strike pay claims by CC89 members (a mere 40) exclude claims from the reps themselves?
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Thanks winstonsmith
so lets say Amicus/CC89 have:
1000 members
20 Reps (thye had this number of reps in 2005 from what I can tell)
This means, assuming each rep went on strike, that each rep has been able to convince only 1 member each to also go on strike!
thats only 2% of the membership in total they have pursueded!
And yet Amicus takes such a hard line, seemingly against the will of their membership... most bizarre!
Probably somewhere around the 1000 mark - maybe a bit less these days - they're a very small branch compared to BASSA yet have completed all negotiations in the past.
1000 members
20 Reps (thye had this number of reps in 2005 from what I can tell)
This means, assuming each rep went on strike, that each rep has been able to convince only 1 member each to also go on strike!
thats only 2% of the membership in total they have pursueded!
And yet Amicus takes such a hard line, seemingly against the will of their membership... most bizarre!
Last edited by Richard228; 17th Nov 2010 at 12:41. Reason: spelling... again!
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LD12986 - I would likewise be surprised if BA do not send Woodley back with his tail between his legs. If it doesn't then BA will look like a fool.
BA made several hard fought concessions during its negotiations with TW including returning ST and making a special case of its previously Union-agreed disciplinary process to include ACAS arbitration. Both of these were counter to WW's public announcement at the Malta conference that no concessions would be made so, clearly, they were not offered easily. These concessions were accepted by TW on the basis the offer would not only be recommended but also actually presented to a consultative ballot of the rank and file.
The way the Union and its Branches are behaving is causing BA to negotiate against itself. If BA falls for this trick it would be very naive indeed especially when it currently holds all the cards and its only really acceptable outcome will be to crush BASSA's current leadership thus preventing this whole ugly episode from happening time and time again.
If BA does agree to restart negotiations at the very least it should strip back its previous ST and disciplinary concessions and start again from where it began before but this time with a clear understanding that anything agreed stands for the ENTIRE Union and its Branches and not just for TW.
Don't forget this entire matter is actually one of a monumental power struggle for who controls BA's IFCE operations.
No more Mr. Nice Guy!
BA made several hard fought concessions during its negotiations with TW including returning ST and making a special case of its previously Union-agreed disciplinary process to include ACAS arbitration. Both of these were counter to WW's public announcement at the Malta conference that no concessions would be made so, clearly, they were not offered easily. These concessions were accepted by TW on the basis the offer would not only be recommended but also actually presented to a consultative ballot of the rank and file.
The way the Union and its Branches are behaving is causing BA to negotiate against itself. If BA falls for this trick it would be very naive indeed especially when it currently holds all the cards and its only really acceptable outcome will be to crush BASSA's current leadership thus preventing this whole ugly episode from happening time and time again.
If BA does agree to restart negotiations at the very least it should strip back its previous ST and disciplinary concessions and start again from where it began before but this time with a clear understanding that anything agreed stands for the ENTIRE Union and its Branches and not just for TW.
Don't forget this entire matter is actually one of a monumental power struggle for who controls BA's IFCE operations.
No more Mr. Nice Guy!
Last edited by AV Flyer; 17th Nov 2010 at 14:08.
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Something that's been bugging me..
From the other thread:
To quote wikipedia:
There seems to have been a trend over these threads to take CRM, which is ultimately quite a specific set of skills to minimise human error and converted it into some notion that all crew have to be best friends.
From the other thread:
then we should all be very worried indeed about the state of CRM within our company.
Crew resource management or Cockpit resource management (CRM) is a procedure and training system in systems where human error can have devastating effects. Used primarily for improving air safety, CRM focuses on interpersonal communication, leadership, and decision making in the cockpit.
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It is TW that has egg on his face at the moment. He publically stated that the last offer was the best that could be expected, his branches told him it was not good enough and sent him back to BA with his cap in his hands like Oliver asking "Please Sir, can I have more?"
BA does not need to do anything. TW is the one that is in a difficult position - will BA trust him with any further offers? The last one was conditional on several things, one being a recommendation from the union, TW gave that recommendation and his underlings made him look foolish and out of touch by refusing to recommend the offer. TW is the one that needs to make things happen to restore his authority and reputation.
BA on the other hand have the savings they need, they have not given a pay rise to the majority of crew, have introduced MF and can continue to grow MF as quick as they like without interference. They can transfer whatever work they like to MF without interference from the union as there is no agreement for route transfers for them to breach as UNITE have failed to negotiate one. There can be no court challenge to the route transfers as there is no agreement to breach.
BA can sit fat, dumb and happy in the knowledge that every day that passes moves a strike away from the holiday period and the savings they are reaping continue to grow. BA has no pressing need to settle this dispute immediately, they can afford to wait the unions out. If BA do act it may give the unions a new legitimate reason to strike, at the moment BA can sack people that strike as the action would not be protected.
AMICUS, the bit part players in the IA with only 40 strikers have effectively ruined the latest chance for a settlement - democracy in action? 20? Reps, looking after the interests of 40 CC, out of 13000 dictating whether there will be a consultative ballot on a settlement to the dispute. You couldn't write this stuff - nobody would believe it.
BA does not need to do anything. TW is the one that is in a difficult position - will BA trust him with any further offers? The last one was conditional on several things, one being a recommendation from the union, TW gave that recommendation and his underlings made him look foolish and out of touch by refusing to recommend the offer. TW is the one that needs to make things happen to restore his authority and reputation.
BA on the other hand have the savings they need, they have not given a pay rise to the majority of crew, have introduced MF and can continue to grow MF as quick as they like without interference. They can transfer whatever work they like to MF without interference from the union as there is no agreement for route transfers for them to breach as UNITE have failed to negotiate one. There can be no court challenge to the route transfers as there is no agreement to breach.
BA can sit fat, dumb and happy in the knowledge that every day that passes moves a strike away from the holiday period and the savings they are reaping continue to grow. BA has no pressing need to settle this dispute immediately, they can afford to wait the unions out. If BA do act it may give the unions a new legitimate reason to strike, at the moment BA can sack people that strike as the action would not be protected.
AMICUS, the bit part players in the IA with only 40 strikers have effectively ruined the latest chance for a settlement - democracy in action? 20? Reps, looking after the interests of 40 CC, out of 13000 dictating whether there will be a consultative ballot on a settlement to the dispute. You couldn't write this stuff - nobody would believe it.
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CRM
WillDAQ - CRM can also stand for Customer Relationship Management and this definition is probably nearer to what is affecting BA's customers/clients/passengers (choose whichever is your favoured tag for SLF today 
)
)
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Cabin Crew are an important part of CRM - the wikipedia entry is wrong to suggest it is confined to the cockpit. If the relationship between cabin and flightdeck is poor then this has a clear impact on safety.
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Cabin Crew are an important part of CRM - the wikipedia entry is wrong to suggest it is confined to the cockpit. If the relationship between cabin and flightdeck is poor then this has a clear impact on safety.
It does not mean relationship in terms of how they interact social downroute. It's about clear concise communication of pertinent facts in a timely manner and focusing on the job in hand in an un-emotive manner.
Now undoubtedly for pilots there is a softer aspect to this as the actions of the pilot and co-pilot are strongly linked: they are carrying out different interlinked tasks at the same time.
However, for a large group of cabin crew carrying out tasks which are essentially stand alone how well you get on with the other crew really shouldn't be an issue.
BA cabin crew undergo CRM as part of their annual checks along with flight crew colleagues.
The interaction of cabin and flight crew is essential to safe operation of any flight.
The British Midland incident proved this.
With out doubt ensuring cabin and flight deck work as a team is paramount.
The interaction of cabin and flight crew is essential to safe operation of any flight.
The British Midland incident proved this.
With out doubt ensuring cabin and flight deck work as a team is paramount.
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On the number of Amicus reps, the last page of this document lists 21 Amicus reps at the time of publication:
http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/AMICUS_News_Oct2009.pdf
http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/AMICUS_News_Oct2009.pdf