BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III

[west lakes]

"you will always loose members when"

I fully understand that bit, but you rarely get members of a union (as opposed to a branch) resigning over the actions of a branch of which they are not members
(BA engineers if reports on here are true)

[Papillon]

Litebulbs

What if the union (bad word) was basically free from compulsory fees and had no political affiliation?

Same applies. People should still be free to decide not to join.

[west lakes]

free from compulsory fees and had no political affiliation

Or the fee was a percentage of salary, so the lower paid had a lesser burden and of course free from the political affiliation

Er that's the union I'm in and also quite a number of others

[Colonel White]

Litebulbs

FWIW the standard BA contract for all staff (bar senior management) indicates that collective bargaining is the norm and is conducted with the various sectional panels. I joined the company shortly after the closed shop was kicked into touch. I had the option of joining a trade union at that point, but couldn't see that they really helped me. I'd previously been employed in the newspaper business at one point and had seen the way that unions had managed to perpetuate some outrageous practices in that area. I'd also lived through the three day week, miners' strike etc. No small wonder that I had a view that unions seemed to be hell bent on holding companies back. Unions might have been seeking justice for their members, but they had also been targetting the rest of the population in a bid to bring pressure on employers.

So yes, I benefit from whatever deal the union strikes with management. The flip side of that coin is that the agreement means I lose any right to personally negotiate pay and bonuses with the company direct. If the deal on offer at any point in time is unacceptable, I exercise my right to seek gainful employment elsewhere. As far as disciplinary matters are concerned, I have no intention of putting myself at odds with company procedures. Maybe I'm fortunate in that my chosen field of work is one which has a reasonably high demand across industries.

[Litebulbs]

west lakes, BA engineers are always leaving Unite and its predecessors and for a multitude of reasons. No doubt many are now leaving the ALAE after its merger with Prospect.

[Litebulbs]

Colonel White

I am sure BA would dread the thought of negotiating with 12000 employees, based on three roles. The only way that would work, is if there was no union and terms were unilaterally imposed, leading to thousands of hours at tribunals. However, unions allow the dismissal/re-engagement route to be circumvented.

[west lakes]

Fair point Litebulbs, something that's pretty alien in my industry though.

[Papillon]

Litebulbs

I am sure BA would dread the thought of negotiating with 12000 employees, based on three roles.

They do with office staff at Waterside. Sure, roles are different, but that makes it more "difficult", not less. Same with managers. That's why you have pay grades.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Papillon

Same applies. People should still be free to decide not to join.

But you are not free to choose what other express terms you want out of a contract? The freedom would be not to join that particular employer. You are bound by the collective negotiating facility, whether you like it or not, so why not have a vote?

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by west lakes

Or the fee was a percentage of salary, so the lower paid had a lesser burden and of course free from the political affiliation

Er that's the union I'm in and also quite a number of others

The Labour Party does too, although it does have political affiliation.

[Papillon]

Litebulbs

Because they don't want to. Because they don't want to give money, because they don't agree with the policies of the union, because they see no benefit in being a member. If the union or organisation cannot convince people of the merits of joining, that's their problem, not the individuals. To have a closed shop is to remove the requirement for the union to convince people they ought to join. Essentially, it removes the requirement for you to do a decent job.

[call100]

Originally Posted by Papillon

Closed shops were abolished because they are fundamentally undemocratic, and within living memory were one element of unions abusing their power. You've made no good argument for why an individual should be forced to join a union at their own expense. That might be your point of view, as you put it, but don't expect everyone else to simply regard it as reasonable.

Perhaps I didn't make a good argument for why an individual should be forced to join a union, because I wasn't making that argument....Read the post again....I merely pointed out that if you were in a closed shop with compulsory voting you would have voted for another candidate rather than DH. So possibly he wouldn't have been in office.
You were also wrong (again) in your assumption that I would expect everyone to regard the closed shop as reasonable.
I've been around members and non members for a long enough to know the varying views and reasons for people joining or not joining a Trade Union. Very few use the 70's as an argument because they understand the current legislation...

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Papillon

They do with office staff at Waterside. Sure, roles are different, but that makes it more "difficult", not less. Same with managers. That's why you have pay grades.

You are not over talking ten thousand in the A grades and it is easier to set clearly defined targets to management grades.

I work in an environment of both unionised and non unionised employees below management level. It is my understanding (as I was having this very discussion today) that the unionised sections are seen to get a fairer deal by the non unionised sections.

[Papillon]

You are not talking about tens of thousands in the A grades and it is easier to set clearly defined targets to management grades.

Perhaps not tens, no, but still quite a lot. I would contend that the point stands. As for clearly defined targets for management grades....well not when I was there!

[west lakes]

I think, that in some respects, that employers are getting a bit concerned with the "personal contract" concept for some grades of staff

I was at the top of the scale for full collective bargaining, but when unions approached management regarding the next grade up (** band managers) it took little negotiation to agree (most of them were union members anyway).

As long as it stays sensible on both sides unions can be a positive for both sides (I won't kid you we have threatened ballots twice so far this year)

But that is the rub - sensible!!

[pvmw]

I used to be in a union for 20 years. Then, the one and only time I needed them they were completely useless, so I left and have not been in one for 10 years. If my paycheck is inadequate, then I exercise my democratic right to leave and find a job that pays better. If my company decides that I am sufficiently necessary, then they will pay me more to keep me. Its called Market Forces.

I exercise my right in a free democracy NOT to belong to a union. Litebulbs proposal that I should be forced to belong to a self-serving bunch of politically motivated hypocrites sounds like something out of N Korea or the best of Stalinist Russia - but oh, so typical of a “socialist” (another definition of self-serving hypocrisy).

[call100]

I think one thing you may be missing (and many like you) is the influence that the Unions have on 'Market Forces' when it comes to pay..........
Of course it's so simple for everyone to just pack in their jobs and find another one??
By the way, I respect your right to belong or not belong...Why get so hot under the collar? It's only a discussion. It has no chance of becoming law...

[Litebulbs]

pvmw

Thats fine and I hope you are not working for one a company which has collective bargaining.

[Juan Tugoh]

Call 100

Allowing rubbish to be debated unchallenged as if it is entirely legitimate lends it a credence it does not deserve. To challenge such dangerous anti-democratic nonsense as the closed shop is not only reasonable, it is sensible. Allowing rubbish like this to be discussed as if it were reasonable allows extreme views to flourish, what other democratic rights would you like to be quietly done away with so that your views are allowed to take hold?

That is why people get "hot under the collar" when someone suggests we do away with democratic rights because they do not fit in with the views of one particular pressure group, in this case the unions. Thank God it has no chance of becoming law.

[Litebulbs]

Well, we shall see the outcome of the ballot. I am sure the debate will swing back to the minority deciding the future of the majority soon enough.

As I have said before, change the law and allow full negotiating rights to all employees. This will not bring the country to a stand still. It will still need unions and the funds that they have, to counter the financial strength of industry.

Another example of how the law requires union membership, is the right of representation. Would you trust to luck whether you have a legally trained and experienced colleague, that could accompany you in a disciplinary?