BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III
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call100:
An interesting statement regarding the function of a Board of Directors:
I would suggest that concerns regarding confidentiality at the Board level are not "misguided" or "irrelevent". In fact, I found myself recently bringing on an individual to a Board, however it was on the basis of the gentlemen's personal attributes, and was quite separate from the group who he belonged to (who wanted Board representation). The line was drawn that this individual would operate under the same rules of confidentiality of other Board members and any breach would be cause for dismissal. For reasons that you so lightly dismiss (financial disclosures, business planning, etc.) the idea of an individual coming on the Board as a "representative" of another entity who he would report proceedings to, was simply unacceptable.
Anyone who thinks that a serious entity would allow a "free agent" into their proceedings is simply naive in the extreme.
An interesting statement regarding the function of a Board of Directors:
No doubt you will carry on in your misguided irrelevant beliefs
Anyone who thinks that a serious entity would allow a "free agent" into their proceedings is simply naive in the extreme.
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Anyone who thinks that a serious entity would allow a "free agent" into their proceedings is simply naive in the extreme.
Lufthansa -Supervisory Board
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call100:
An interesting statement regarding the function of a Board of Directors:
I would suggest that concerns regarding confidentiality at the Board level are not "misguided" or "irrelevent". In fact, I found myself recently bringing on an individual to a Board, however it was on the basis of the gentlemen's personal attributes, and was quite separate from the group who he belonged to (who wanted Board representation). The line was drawn that this individual would operate under the same rules of confidentiality of other Board members and any breach would be cause for dismissal. For reasons that you so lightly dismiss (financial disclosures, business planning, etc.) the idea of an individual coming on the Board as a "representative" of another entity who he would report proceedings to, was simply unacceptable.
Anyone who thinks that a serious entity would allow a "free agent" into their proceedings is simply naive in the extreme.
An interesting statement regarding the function of a Board of Directors:
I would suggest that concerns regarding confidentiality at the Board level are not "misguided" or "irrelevent". In fact, I found myself recently bringing on an individual to a Board, however it was on the basis of the gentlemen's personal attributes, and was quite separate from the group who he belonged to (who wanted Board representation). The line was drawn that this individual would operate under the same rules of confidentiality of other Board members and any breach would be cause for dismissal. For reasons that you so lightly dismiss (financial disclosures, business planning, etc.) the idea of an individual coming on the Board as a "representative" of another entity who he would report proceedings to, was simply unacceptable.
Anyone who thinks that a serious entity would allow a "free agent" into their proceedings is simply naive in the extreme.
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I would have thought the Board having direct input from the 'shop floor' as it were, would be a bonus in a large company, where normally they would have to rely on info 'trickling up' via middle management. Terminal 5 springs to mind, many on the ground had doubts about the opening which were not taken as seriously as it eventually proved they should have been further up the chain.
A direct route to the Board from the floor would keep middle management on it's toes.
I daresay there would have to be a confidentiality agreement as to what areas can be reported back on and what not, but not insurmountable if the will was there.
Interesting looking at Lufthansa's Board, there is a conventional 'Executive Board' plus the 'Supervisory Board' made up of shareholders and employee representatives. This link is to the Lufthansa page detailing the areas of responsibility, which also makes it clear this is normal in German companies.
A direct route to the Board from the floor would keep middle management on it's toes.
I daresay there would have to be a confidentiality agreement as to what areas can be reported back on and what not, but not insurmountable if the will was there.
Interesting looking at Lufthansa's Board, there is a conventional 'Executive Board' plus the 'Supervisory Board' made up of shareholders and employee representatives. This link is to the Lufthansa page detailing the areas of responsibility, which also makes it clear this is normal in German companies.
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JDS:
Interesting Board structure, but you will note that even they split duties...and that set up is not the norm in the U.K..
A liason to the Board from the floor makes sense, but actually Board membership would make most businessmen cringe...for good reason.
An interesting article on the issue:
"German rethinks board structure after corruption scandals"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/bu...4.5163074.html
Interesting Board structure, but you will note that even they split duties...and that set up is not the norm in the U.K..
A liason to the Board from the floor makes sense, but actually Board membership would make most businessmen cringe...for good reason.
An interesting article on the issue:
"German rethinks board structure after corruption scandals"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/bu...4.5163074.html
Last edited by Diplome; 28th Jan 2011 at 10:20.
Lufthansa
The German trade union system was set up after the war on a much more sensible basis than the UK multiplicity of unions (with consequent suicidal demarcation disputes).
Since then German unions have generally understood that it is in their interest for the company to be successful. The presence of union members on the board would therefore be likely to be constructive rather than destructive.
Most British unions have now grasped the principle. Except BASSA of course.
Since then German unions have generally understood that it is in their interest for the company to be successful. The presence of union members on the board would therefore be likely to be constructive rather than destructive.
Most British unions have now grasped the principle. Except BASSA of course.
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Interesting Board structure
Scotbill explains it nicely.
that set up is not the norm in the U.K.
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Standard practice in Germany, certainly. Sarcastic comments about the UK being different (bless) ignores the reality that it's not the case in the US either, or indeed lots of other countries.
Something which more or less works in Germany doesn't necessarily work elsewhere, whether in union relations or economics - as you're doubtless finding out in Portugal right now.
The union/board relationship model they use has been looked at in the UK over many years, but whilst there are advantages to it, there are also many, many disadvantages.
Something which more or less works in Germany doesn't necessarily work elsewhere, whether in union relations or economics - as you're doubtless finding out in Portugal right now.
The union/board relationship model they use has been looked at in the UK over many years, but whilst there are advantages to it, there are also many, many disadvantages.
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Papillon
The map you can access by the link below will show you that employee representation at board level is by no means a limited concept, with 12/6/12 countries having widespread/limited/no representation rights.
Map: Board-level representation in the EU-27+3 / Board-level Representation / Across Europe / National Industrial Relations / Home - WORKER PARTICIPATION.eu
Whatever the challenges of Portugal (and there are many) at least employees are represented at board level.
If you look at Federation of European Employers numbers (2004-2006, latest available), one will see an average of 23 days lost per 1,000 workers, per year, in the UK versus 4 in Germany.
I would not draw a firm conclusion about correlation, since only an unwise person would attribute cause and effect on the basis of one set of numbers.
But in the period 2004-2006, the UK lost an aggregate of 69 days per thousand workers, versus 12 in Germany.
I would not even compare the US to Europe (for this subject), as the "employment at will" based legislation in many states means that the environment is completely different to Europe.
Maybe we could all club together and have the UK towed across the Atlantic? Might make a lot of people happy.
The map you can access by the link below will show you that employee representation at board level is by no means a limited concept, with 12/6/12 countries having widespread/limited/no representation rights.
Map: Board-level representation in the EU-27+3 / Board-level Representation / Across Europe / National Industrial Relations / Home - WORKER PARTICIPATION.eu
Whatever the challenges of Portugal (and there are many) at least employees are represented at board level.
If you look at Federation of European Employers numbers (2004-2006, latest available), one will see an average of 23 days lost per 1,000 workers, per year, in the UK versus 4 in Germany.
I would not draw a firm conclusion about correlation, since only an unwise person would attribute cause and effect on the basis of one set of numbers.
But in the period 2004-2006, the UK lost an aggregate of 69 days per thousand workers, versus 12 in Germany.
I would not even compare the US to Europe (for this subject), as the "employment at will" based legislation in many states means that the environment is completely different to Europe.
Maybe we could all club together and have the UK towed across the Atlantic? Might make a lot of people happy.
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Worker Representation at Board Level
And, in the words of President Lyndon Baines Johnson, "wouldn't you prefer to have them inside the tent pi$$ing out, rather than outside the tent pi$$ing in?"
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I didn't say it was a limited concept. I said it wasn't the case in lots of other countries. Just because it's something that happens in Germany successfully, and in other countries with mixed results doesn't mean anything at all. Ignoring the United States (as many Europeans are wont to do for some reason) is pretty daft, given that they're the world's biggest economy.
Nor should you simply look at the days lost to strikes as an arbiter of the success or otherwise of the concept - it's more complex than that. Germany itself has had a very difficult 30 years economically, and been outperformed by the UK for most of that period. The Germans themselves have wondered whether their system is indeed a good one, as wages have increased and competitiveness declined. You could make a pretty good argument that their structural difficulties have been assuaged by the way they've managed the Euro - it's just caused devastation elsewhere.
Like anything, I never trust any idea that purports to be a solution to all ills.
Nor should you simply look at the days lost to strikes as an arbiter of the success or otherwise of the concept - it's more complex than that. Germany itself has had a very difficult 30 years economically, and been outperformed by the UK for most of that period. The Germans themselves have wondered whether their system is indeed a good one, as wages have increased and competitiveness declined. You could make a pretty good argument that their structural difficulties have been assuaged by the way they've managed the Euro - it's just caused devastation elsewhere.
Like anything, I never trust any idea that purports to be a solution to all ills.
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We have different cultures, different laws and ever different thinking so what works in one place isn't the answer every where.
Is some one seriously suggesting that a union who couldn't or wouldn't look at the finances of BA be on the board?
Is some one seriously suggesting that a union who couldn't or wouldn't look at the finances of BA be on the board?
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Papillon
I don't suggest anything as a panacea for all ills.
Also, I put a very clear caveat on the risks of drawing conlusions form one sets of figures.
Neither did I ignore the USA, I stated clearly that I would not compare for this matter as the HR laws in the US and Europe render comparisons of very limited value. Have you worked in the USA? (I have.)
Workers need strong representation in the US and the union model across there has developed to create a counter balance to the 'at will' employment situation.
By comparison to the USA (in general, as federal and local laws different from state to state), the UK labour laws are very protective of workers rights.
Out of those 30 years, 20 years has involved taking on the tremendous burden of reunification - the UK should have out performed Germany by a substantial margin.
As to managing the Euro, in 2002, 64 pence bought a euro, today it is 86p.
Did the euro strengthen or did the pound fall?
The German approach is forcing the 'club med' countries (of which Portugal is one) to realise that they have a decision to make, if they wish to have improved standards of livingon a sustainable basis. Stay and learn fiscal disipline or leave.
But then again, the UK is also learning this lesson, if one reads Mr King's recent analysis.
I don't suggest anything as a panacea for all ills.
Also, I put a very clear caveat on the risks of drawing conlusions form one sets of figures.
Neither did I ignore the USA, I stated clearly that I would not compare for this matter as the HR laws in the US and Europe render comparisons of very limited value. Have you worked in the USA? (I have.)
Workers need strong representation in the US and the union model across there has developed to create a counter balance to the 'at will' employment situation.
By comparison to the USA (in general, as federal and local laws different from state to state), the UK labour laws are very protective of workers rights.
Germany itself has had a very difficult 30 years economically, and been outperformed by the UK for most of that period
As to managing the Euro, in 2002, 64 pence bought a euro, today it is 86p.
Did the euro strengthen or did the pound fall?
The German approach is forcing the 'club med' countries (of which Portugal is one) to realise that they have a decision to make, if they wish to have improved standards of livingon a sustainable basis. Stay and learn fiscal disipline or leave.
But then again, the UK is also learning this lesson, if one reads Mr King's recent analysis.
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Is some one seriously suggesting that a union who couldn't or wouldn't look at the finances of BA be on the board?
We have different cultures, different laws and ever different thinking so what works in one place isn't the answer every where.
I did not suggest that we should all have the sameway of doing things, if you read back it was Diplome who said
anyone who thinks a serious entity would allow a "free agent" into their proceedings is simply naive in the extreme
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Quite an interesting discussion about board level representation, thank you to all that have contributed, it has been genuinely enlightening as my own experience is wholly UK based so it’s good to learn about the experiences of others.
Unfortunately this thread is about BA and BASSA specifically, and in that context would I invite them onto the board?
Not a chance.
Unfortunately this thread is about BA and BASSA specifically, and in that context would I invite them onto the board?
Not a chance.
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Joao, the working culture in the UK is more similar to the US than it is continental Europe. The fact that there are more protections here doesn't alter that. Hence why using Europe as an example but ignoring the US is rather silly.
Your point on the euro is largely missing the point about forced low interest rates, but that's one for another day and a different board.
Your point on the euro is largely missing the point about forced low interest rates, but that's one for another day and a different board.
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Unfortunately this thread is about BA and BASSA specifically, and in that context would I invite them onto the board?
This episode has probably done a lot of damage to the trade unionists in the UK, like Litebulbs, who are reasonable and decent people and whose aim in life is to look after their members and not run the corporation.
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Joao, the working culture in the UK is more similar to the US than it is continental Europe.
I have found the vast majority of UK colleagues to have a different perspective on the workplace, compared to US colleagues. NB: I am not judging them against each other as being superior/inferior.
Equally whilst corporate governance in the UK is nearer to the US, than in some European states, I often found US senior management to have a more ruthless approach than their UK equivalents.
In terms of social values, which underpin the workplace, I would see also significant differences.
So, at least based on my experiences, it is completely logical not to compare the US and Europe.
However, this is my opinion and I respect differing views, too.