BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III
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Um... removing the low performers happens in BA. A few years ago the IT section of BA made the gift of a P45 to a number of the lowest performers in the department. But then that may be because they operate a performance management system. I believe that the same arrangement has been used amongst the management fraternity when they did some of the headcount reductions when managers were invited to apply for their own jobs. Similar exercises have been run in areas like Rev Man.
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Bulbs,
At several large companies I know, here is how it works. Nobody is chucked out for one bad review.
You get an unsatisfactory annual review from your supervisor. At that point your supervisor or manager must develop a Performance Improvement Plan with specific and measurable goals. In other words, do this and this and if you maintain other performance issues, you will get a satisfactory job rating.
So employee performs and gets satisfactory rating and no problem. Employee does not perform again and gets unsatisfactory rating again and is let go.
General Electric is a different case but that is another long story.
TB
At several large companies I know, here is how it works. Nobody is chucked out for one bad review.
You get an unsatisfactory annual review from your supervisor. At that point your supervisor or manager must develop a Performance Improvement Plan with specific and measurable goals. In other words, do this and this and if you maintain other performance issues, you will get a satisfactory job rating.
So employee performs and gets satisfactory rating and no problem. Employee does not perform again and gets unsatisfactory rating again and is let go.
General Electric is a different case but that is another long story.
TB
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TrakBall
I have seen but never been involved in this sort of process, probably because my career has been in unionised environments, but that really is the discussion point here. Do unions protect the weak or lazy?! I doubt if I would be the first to go in my current job, but I know I wouldn't be the last. However, I bet I would be more pursuasive in a capability review, than some who would deserve the job more than me!
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Litebulbs,
Yes, unions do protect the lazy and incompetent. Take the NY Teachers Union as an example. A teacher fails multiple evaluations. They cannot spell, do math or English. You really have to wonder how they got a teaching certificate. The school district wants to let them go - after all, they are really hurting kids.
The union then fights it through every court and every hearing process they can despite the evidence. In the meantime, to limit the damage to the kids, all the dozens of NY teachers going through this process are housed every day in a district building away from kids but still drawing upwards of $120,000 in annual salary.
I will also say that unions protect the least competent because I have never seen a union accept a merit pay scheme for their members.
But one final comment, unions do have a role in the workplace and I think good unions can do great things for members and a business. However, when unions like BASSA (ok, I know they are part of UNITE) adopt personal or political agendas (CC89) then they cause incredible damage to their members, the company and the union movement.
TB
Yes, unions do protect the lazy and incompetent. Take the NY Teachers Union as an example. A teacher fails multiple evaluations. They cannot spell, do math or English. You really have to wonder how they got a teaching certificate. The school district wants to let them go - after all, they are really hurting kids.
The union then fights it through every court and every hearing process they can despite the evidence. In the meantime, to limit the damage to the kids, all the dozens of NY teachers going through this process are housed every day in a district building away from kids but still drawing upwards of $120,000 in annual salary.
I will also say that unions protect the least competent because I have never seen a union accept a merit pay scheme for their members.
But one final comment, unions do have a role in the workplace and I think good unions can do great things for members and a business. However, when unions like BASSA (ok, I know they are part of UNITE) adopt personal or political agendas (CC89) then they cause incredible damage to their members, the company and the union movement.
TB
I comment infrequently but as this is bit closer to my business background I felt I could in this instance.
Litebulbs - the definition of what makes a great company is obviously open to interpretation however I would suggest that great companies have two traits - the ability to satisfy their customers with consistently high levels of service so that they keep coming back, and secondly, the satisfaction of the shareholders.
Staff satisfaction is only a subset of the former and is not a deciding factor in itself, as it is entirely possible to overpay staff so thay are delighted and the service is excellent, but for the company will go bust.
Perhaps your comment is illustrative of the general issue over the whole dispute and it's various facets - CC belief that their satisfaction in the round has to be achieved before any other factor such as profitability, survivals, customer feedback etc. Just an opinion of course. As a passenger, I am not overly concerned about staff satisfaction, as long as it does not affect me.
Lastly, the best example of the lower performance cull culture is in Cisco Systems who are one of the great IT companies to work for and one whom people clamour to work for ..... They remove their 10% bottom performing sales people each year, as sales people are paid to bring in orders, and if they do not, then their contract is clear about the consequences. Anyone in industry would rate Cisco at the top of the companies to work for, and they qualify as being great.
Litebulbs - the definition of what makes a great company is obviously open to interpretation however I would suggest that great companies have two traits - the ability to satisfy their customers with consistently high levels of service so that they keep coming back, and secondly, the satisfaction of the shareholders.
Staff satisfaction is only a subset of the former and is not a deciding factor in itself, as it is entirely possible to overpay staff so thay are delighted and the service is excellent, but for the company will go bust.
Perhaps your comment is illustrative of the general issue over the whole dispute and it's various facets - CC belief that their satisfaction in the round has to be achieved before any other factor such as profitability, survivals, customer feedback etc. Just an opinion of course. As a passenger, I am not overly concerned about staff satisfaction, as long as it does not affect me.
Lastly, the best example of the lower performance cull culture is in Cisco Systems who are one of the great IT companies to work for and one whom people clamour to work for ..... They remove their 10% bottom performing sales people each year, as sales people are paid to bring in orders, and if they do not, then their contract is clear about the consequences. Anyone in industry would rate Cisco at the top of the companies to work for, and they qualify as being great.
Paxing All Over The World
They remove their 10% bottom performing sales people each year, as sales people are paid to bring in orders, and if they do not, then their contract is clear about the consequences.
Anyone in industry would rate Cisco at the top of the companies to work for, and they qualify as being great.
TrakBall
You get an unsatisfactory annual review from your supervisor. At that point your supervisor or manager must develop a Performance Improvement Plan with specific and measurable goals. In other words, do this and this and if you maintain other performance issues, you will get a satisfactory job rating.
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If a sales person knows they will be removed for low returns, they may resort to getting sales at any price by promising things that cannot actually be delivered and 'bigging up' the ability of the company/product.
Having said that, sometimes it is in a company's interest to take low profit work for the contribution to the overhead, it is called marginal costing. However any sales person who embarks on this course without the active encouragement of their line manager (and higher) is sure to be invited to a meeting without coffee in very short order. They would not last long in any company even if they thought they had circumvented the inevitable.
Litebulbs,
There are all sorts of great companies to work for. Different individuals have different preferences.
That unite report gives one view.
However, of those that use the 5% to 10% performance based dismissals (see earlier comments - GEC, Oracle, the big 4 accountants et al) some make the "great companies to work for" and some do not. As has already been said, people clamour to work for Oracle and some parts of GE,
They might not be your cup of tea, but they generally have no problem in recruiting great staff.
I once had the privilege of spending time on the GE people development sight - open to all staff. It was light years better than anything I had seen before, and I've worked for some very good companies. .
I guess there is a deal - work hard, deliver results, and we'll pay you well and treat you well and develop you.
Take the big accountants. They are always in the top Cos to work for. ................and all the staff know that about 50% of all recruits will be fired in the next 3 or 4 years. I spent some time learning from Ernst and Young. They are brutal with performance, but get the highest possible ratings from their staff.
Oh, and the accountants are just as mobile as CC and work with different teams all the time, just like CC..
There are all sorts of great companies to work for. Different individuals have different preferences.
That unite report gives one view.
However, of those that use the 5% to 10% performance based dismissals (see earlier comments - GEC, Oracle, the big 4 accountants et al) some make the "great companies to work for" and some do not. As has already been said, people clamour to work for Oracle and some parts of GE,
They might not be your cup of tea, but they generally have no problem in recruiting great staff.
I once had the privilege of spending time on the GE people development sight - open to all staff. It was light years better than anything I had seen before, and I've worked for some very good companies. .
I guess there is a deal - work hard, deliver results, and we'll pay you well and treat you well and develop you.
Take the big accountants. They are always in the top Cos to work for. ................and all the staff know that about 50% of all recruits will be fired in the next 3 or 4 years. I spent some time learning from Ernst and Young. They are brutal with performance, but get the highest possible ratings from their staff.
Oh, and the accountants are just as mobile as CC and work with different teams all the time, just like CC..
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AO
You make some really strong points that work for a lot of businesses.
But lets look at me, an engineer. No doubt you want to arrive at your destination on time, but at what cost? Do you think there is a difference between safe and timely, to timely and safe? The very best I can do is offer an aircraft for service on time. How I get to that situation is probably what I could be measured on.
Would you, if you were traveling in a premium cabin, be more worried about your IFE not working, or having a 100% serviceable engine fire detection system? What will get more passenger complaints? OK, it is not cabin crew, but it rolls out to a service job too.
The best Bloody Mary I have ever had was on a BA First flight. I have to quantify that because it was a staff travel ticket and I could not normally fly in that cabin, so I would also not be able to afford to experience the time that went into that drink in the economy cabin. Quantify that.
However, I personally do not want anybody obviously going the extra mile; I want to think after the event that that extra mile was spent on me, but it wasn't rammed down my throat, but that is the reserved Brit in me.
What I see in driven people is yes men, who make promises that cannot be kept. Now that is a huge exaggeration, but it is what people think at the lower end of the salary scale.
Sorry for the ramble, but man flu has kicked in.
But lets look at me, an engineer. No doubt you want to arrive at your destination on time, but at what cost? Do you think there is a difference between safe and timely, to timely and safe? The very best I can do is offer an aircraft for service on time. How I get to that situation is probably what I could be measured on.
Would you, if you were traveling in a premium cabin, be more worried about your IFE not working, or having a 100% serviceable engine fire detection system? What will get more passenger complaints? OK, it is not cabin crew, but it rolls out to a service job too.
The best Bloody Mary I have ever had was on a BA First flight. I have to quantify that because it was a staff travel ticket and I could not normally fly in that cabin, so I would also not be able to afford to experience the time that went into that drink in the economy cabin. Quantify that.
However, I personally do not want anybody obviously going the extra mile; I want to think after the event that that extra mile was spent on me, but it wasn't rammed down my throat, but that is the reserved Brit in me.
What I see in driven people is yes men, who make promises that cannot be kept. Now that is a huge exaggeration, but it is what people think at the lower end of the salary scale.
Sorry for the ramble, but man flu has kicked in.
Litebulbs,
I'm sure you could work out what you ought to be measured on. And it won't be safe planes - that's a given. I used to work in a factory in the North West that had the capability to take out all of Liverpool's population. All of them. We did not pay the engineers a bonus for not doing that. We would all have lost our jobs if the engineers had done it.
You can figure out who the top 10% of engineers are, and who the bottom 10% are. We all do it all the time.
It is just not fair to the majority for them to be held back by the slackers.
I'm sure you could work out what you ought to be measured on. And it won't be safe planes - that's a given. I used to work in a factory in the North West that had the capability to take out all of Liverpool's population. All of them. We did not pay the engineers a bonus for not doing that. We would all have lost our jobs if the engineers had done it.
You can figure out who the top 10% of engineers are, and who the bottom 10% are. We all do it all the time.
It is just not fair to the majority for them to be held back by the slackers.
Happy New Year!
Happy new Year to all airline staff who want to put their customers first in all matters, and who act accordingly, thus not striking and giving out hot towels in WT+.
A rotten New Year to those that do not.
A rotten New Year to those that do not.
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AO
Any standard capability policy would do that. One thing I have learnt through being a rep, is that fellow employees are far more critical than any management team. It doesn't take to much effort so work out who would be a safe target for a capable management team.
The biggest single issue is that crews work as teams, but very rarely are they a team that knows the strength and weaknesses of each other in a big airline. That is the team of 15 or 10 or 4, will in all probability never fly together more than a handful of times through their entire careers. BA may have 2000 engineers, but the team breakdown is governed by shifts, who work together every day. Peer pressure about letting your mates down happens and you have competition between shifts, some good some bad.
I am not saying the flying community is unique, but there are not too many places where you have a workforce of 10000+ at one base, that don't know the in's and out's of at least 40 fellow colleagues.
I have to be really sick not to go in, because I personally know who will be working extra to cover for me. Do crew? That is not to say that anything more than a small minority of crew actually go sick because they don't care however.
With the invention of the Bradford Factor, sickness is a prime measure in redundancy situations in big workforces today, which has lead to people going in, when they should not. I will not let a cold lead to my redundancy in the future.
The biggest single issue is that crews work as teams, but very rarely are they a team that knows the strength and weaknesses of each other in a big airline. That is the team of 15 or 10 or 4, will in all probability never fly together more than a handful of times through their entire careers. BA may have 2000 engineers, but the team breakdown is governed by shifts, who work together every day. Peer pressure about letting your mates down happens and you have competition between shifts, some good some bad.
I am not saying the flying community is unique, but there are not too many places where you have a workforce of 10000+ at one base, that don't know the in's and out's of at least 40 fellow colleagues.
I have to be really sick not to go in, because I personally know who will be working extra to cover for me. Do crew? That is not to say that anything more than a small minority of crew actually go sick because they don't care however.
With the invention of the Bradford Factor, sickness is a prime measure in redundancy situations in big workforces today, which has lead to people going in, when they should not. I will not let a cold lead to my redundancy in the future.
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I find it interesting that no matter what type of work is at issue the union representing the employees always argue that in the particular case performance based evaluations are not appropriate. It seems tenure is always the answer.
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pcat160
I am a rep of the UK's biggest union and was directly involved in negotiating in performance reviews a few years back. They have stalled now, but we will be going through the same process again in the near future. I have members asking for performance appraisals too.
As ottergirl has said on the other thread, BA crew currently have a performance review system and they have the single biggest branch within Unite.
To me they are about developing talent, but for some on here, it is a culling process. That is the difference of opinion.
As ottergirl has said on the other thread, BA crew currently have a performance review system and they have the single biggest branch within Unite.
To me they are about developing talent, but for some on here, it is a culling process. That is the difference of opinion.
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Survey
And if you are bored on New Years Eve, have a go at this -
Perfomance Review Survey of Pprune Members
Please feel free to comment on the structure and content too. I look forward to your feedback and Happy New Year.
Perfomance Review Survey of Pprune Members
Please feel free to comment on the structure and content too. I look forward to your feedback and Happy New Year.
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lb
My reference had more to do with determining compensation as well as promotion and termination. How do you feel about performance based evaluations being used to determine compensation disregarding promotion?
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For me personally, I think that it would be achievable, but the checks and measures would have to be scrutinised in minute detail. I have been in discussions on this very subject a few times, but failed to establish measures for the job that I do, that would have no impact on safety, because I work in a very regulated job.
If you add personal commercial pressure onto the already industry driven pressures, then some might take the buck, before doing the job right.
But this is an interesting debate and no doubt I will learn from it; if we do not get censured for thread drift.
If you add personal commercial pressure onto the already industry driven pressures, then some might take the buck, before doing the job right.
But this is an interesting debate and no doubt I will learn from it; if we do not get censured for thread drift.
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Hmmmm ... a strange sampling exercise from the SLF. However, I clicked the buttons based on my 30 years in aviation. So what does that prove? 
Whatever, Happy New Year ... Nurse says it's time to get off the keyboard and take my pills.
I would have said something about Happy New Year on the CC Thread, but I've got bored with being banned, so borrocks to them. They either do the job they're paid for or they don't. As a paying customer, I have had enough bu§§eration this year from the CC dispute, and it's MY money they're playing around with.
.... yeah, OK, Nursey ... see y'all next year.
Whatever, Happy New Year ... Nurse says it's time to get off the keyboard and take my pills.
I would have said something about Happy New Year on the CC Thread, but I've got bored with being banned, so borrocks to them. They either do the job they're paid for or they don't. As a paying customer, I have had enough bu§§eration this year from the CC dispute, and it's MY money they're playing around with.
.... yeah, OK, Nursey ... see y'all next year.
