BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III
Old tobacco tins.
A further part of vct's history lesson.
It wasn't just any old tobacco tins that were used to collect subs at branch level. The had to be the larger Old Holborn tins, as the UK's currency in those days included pennies that were so large and heavy that only the biggest tins would do.
However, Old Holborn was a relatively expensive tobacco, so branches had to duck, dive and deal in order to get enough tins of Old Holborn size...............and no matter what the branch Sec did, those tins grew legs and disappeared at an amazing rate..............
It wasn't just any old tobacco tins that were used to collect subs at branch level. The had to be the larger Old Holborn tins, as the UK's currency in those days included pennies that were so large and heavy that only the biggest tins would do.
However, Old Holborn was a relatively expensive tobacco, so branches had to duck, dive and deal in order to get enough tins of Old Holborn size...............and no matter what the branch Sec did, those tins grew legs and disappeared at an amazing rate..............
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Why is this union so disorganised?
Because there's no one there but drunken duncan?
As he is no longer the Branch Secretary and as such has no authority?, with a quantity of reps dismissed or suspended, is there an audience available?
Is there a figure anywhere of the normal number of reps then in existance when this all blew up in Q4/2009
The number dismissed or suspended and the number of volunteers DD called for some weeks ago, when the withdrawal of facilities hit and he did not appear to consider appointing replacement or additional reps - if such authority was in being of course.
For all we know, we could just be responding to the many ramblings of a drunken ghost writer.
Joao - Lisbon
Fear not - The use of the word Drunken in reference to Duncan, is only a fond reflection of his many posts, which for the past year or more, have entertained us with accounts of the quantities of alcohol that he had drunk or intended consuming.
As he is no longer the Branch Secretary and as such has no authority?, with a quantity of reps dismissed or suspended, is there an audience available?
Is there a figure anywhere of the normal number of reps then in existance when this all blew up in Q4/2009
The number dismissed or suspended and the number of volunteers DD called for some weeks ago, when the withdrawal of facilities hit and he did not appear to consider appointing replacement or additional reps - if such authority was in being of course.
For all we know, we could just be responding to the many ramblings of a drunken ghost writer.
Joao - Lisbon
Fear not - The use of the word Drunken in reference to Duncan, is only a fond reflection of his many posts, which for the past year or more, have entertained us with accounts of the quantities of alcohol that he had drunk or intended consuming.
A further part of vct's history lesson.
It wasn't just any old tobacco tins that were used to collect subs at branch level. The had to be the larger Old Holborn tins, as the UK's currency in those days included pennies that were so large and heavy that only the biggest tins would do.
However, Old Holborn was a relatively expensive tobacco, so branches had to duck, dive and deal in order to get enough tins of Old Holborn size...............and no matter what the branch Sec did, those tins grew legs and disappeared at an amazing rate..............
It wasn't just any old tobacco tins that were used to collect subs at branch level. The had to be the larger Old Holborn tins, as the UK's currency in those days included pennies that were so large and heavy that only the biggest tins would do.
However, Old Holborn was a relatively expensive tobacco, so branches had to duck, dive and deal in order to get enough tins of Old Holborn size...............and no matter what the branch Sec did, those tins grew legs and disappeared at an amazing rate..............
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Large Old Holborn tins ....
Funny thing, I can't remember anyone ever trying to do a runner with one of those full of coppers - although I think today that would be a hernia job on the Saga policy!
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End game soon. BA have to get closure on this. Xmas period not that far off so I would expect a SOSR to be coming the Crews way on about the 2nd Jan. 90 days later its finished.
Last edited by manintheback; 8th Nov 2010 at 17:09.
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http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/429...f-only-58.html
Post 1146 ... I honestly can't be bothered to either cross-reference or even quote the ranting.
Summarised ... "Everyone hates us, even Unite, fight on to the death, BA can't survive".
Post 1146 ... I honestly can't be bothered to either cross-reference or even quote the ranting.
Summarised ... "Everyone hates us, even Unite, fight on to the death, BA can't survive".
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What pressure cooker. It seems to me that the pressure cooker has blown its valve. Four unions at each others throats says it all about this dispute. That unsavory offering by Amicus/CC89 shows that they are running around like headless chickens. Their rhetoric is intimidatory and BASSA have all but lost the will to live - let alone the plot. It is a hopeless mess been bought about by stiff necked intransigence, self serving reps and a group of reps who haven't got a clue.
Unite are mastering this dispute right now having got BA to offer a reasonable solution. No other result is possible and the sooner everyone recognizes it the better. The best is now on offer and it should be accepted.
The idea that they can get control of BA is stupid beyond words. BA have had enough of unions trying to run the airline - now the experts are back in control. If the unions don't like it there is always the knackers yard.
Unite are mastering this dispute right now having got BA to offer a reasonable solution. No other result is possible and the sooner everyone recognizes it the better. The best is now on offer and it should be accepted.
The idea that they can get control of BA is stupid beyond words. BA have had enough of unions trying to run the airline - now the experts are back in control. If the unions don't like it there is always the knackers yard.
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Reading BASSA's latest notices and the most recent one from Amicus/CC89 my first thought is...
"They are offering nothing....absolutely nothing to their members".
Its important to remember that these are the Unions that stated they would have "staff travel back in five minutes" and with that representation ensured its loss.
This missive is full of personal anger regarding Amicus/CC89 and BASSA reps not being shown the respect they so crave and feel they deserve...but they do nothing to earn that respect.
Where is the reasoned and thoughtful argument regarding what Amicus/CC89 and BASSA would request at a negotiating table and what improved results they would expect to obtain for their members? I'm not reading it.
As for discussion regarding the positives and negatives that must seriously be thought through by each member what is offered is this denial of reality.
While I am sure that BA is taking the threat of industrial action seriously to state that "Everything is on our side" is to deny recent history. The imposition (imposed only after BASSA and Amicus refused to negotiate) is a reality, there is no support from other divisions in BA and BA and its employees have proven that they will not allow a group of militants to bring the airline down.
Recent financial reports prove that BA and its employees are more than capable of weathering attempts to hold the company hostage.
The risk to striking cabin crew is significant and it is obvious that everything is not on BASSA's or Amicus' "side".
I remain genuinely stunned at the communications and actions of these Unions. It's so far from my personal observations concerning other Unions facing difficult negotiations.
If BASSA is brought down it will not be due to the actions of BA.
"They are offering nothing....absolutely nothing to their members".
Its important to remember that these are the Unions that stated they would have "staff travel back in five minutes" and with that representation ensured its loss.
This missive is full of personal anger regarding Amicus/CC89 and BASSA reps not being shown the respect they so crave and feel they deserve...but they do nothing to earn that respect.
Where is the reasoned and thoughtful argument regarding what Amicus/CC89 and BASSA would request at a negotiating table and what improved results they would expect to obtain for their members? I'm not reading it.
As for discussion regarding the positives and negatives that must seriously be thought through by each member what is offered is this denial of reality.
Everything is on our side, don't forget that. Ask yourself this question;
How long can British Airways hold out against a proactive union that uses it best resource proudly and wisely: REGULARindustrial action? How long could Willie Walsh sustain the cost of the VCC's, falling bookings because people won’t trust the airline to deliver, the loss of market share and brand erosion and all the other costs that have totalled in excess of £200 million. We would like to know the real cost of this dispute to date.
How long can British Airways hold out against a proactive union that uses it best resource proudly and wisely: REGULARindustrial action? How long could Willie Walsh sustain the cost of the VCC's, falling bookings because people won’t trust the airline to deliver, the loss of market share and brand erosion and all the other costs that have totalled in excess of £200 million. We would like to know the real cost of this dispute to date.
Recent financial reports prove that BA and its employees are more than capable of weathering attempts to hold the company hostage.
The risk to striking cabin crew is significant and it is obvious that everything is not on BASSA's or Amicus' "side".
I remain genuinely stunned at the communications and actions of these Unions. It's so far from my personal observations concerning other Unions facing difficult negotiations.
If BASSA is brought down it will not be due to the actions of BA.
Last edited by Diplome; 9th Nov 2010 at 14:30. Reason: clarity...until I remember the movie title.
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Amicus Committee Update
What was previously on the other thread was a private e-mail._ However the Amicus committee have now put it into the public domain:-______link
Nevertheless it is a pity that they have not clarified this mystifying paragraph
I cannot guess what this "letter" might be saying._ But it is published._ Does anyone have a copy?
Nevertheless it is a pity that they have not clarified this mystifying paragraph
And why can’t our BASSA colleagues include a letter, already published, in the voting pack that tells you how they feel about the offer? Maybe because it might persuade you to do the right thing?
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I really thought that this dispute was just going to finally wither away. However, the sheer intransigence (whether semi-covertly by BASSA, or openly by Amicus) being demonstrated and advocated to members, is pointing increasingly to a bloody showdown.
To the informed observer, it is clear that for too many years, BA's Management created a parallel universe in IFCE, where the normal rules of industrial engagement and organisational effectiveness have been abandoned in favour of some apparent desire to be seen to be nice to employees and particularly the Unions. A generation of employees now believe that to be the norm, and can't comprehend that BA is now determined (neccesarily) to revert to the universe that most of us inhabit. Perhaps the Reps, having been closest to the previous management approach, are the greatest confirmed believers in the reality of the parallel universe - up until this dispute, their entire experience is of the old style regime. They therefore find the greatest difficulty in coming to terms with the "normal" universe.
Unfortunately, all the signs are that the Branch Committees and a goodly prportion of the membership simply can't come to terms with the new reality, and there can therefore only be one outcome.
To the informed observer, it is clear that for too many years, BA's Management created a parallel universe in IFCE, where the normal rules of industrial engagement and organisational effectiveness have been abandoned in favour of some apparent desire to be seen to be nice to employees and particularly the Unions. A generation of employees now believe that to be the norm, and can't comprehend that BA is now determined (neccesarily) to revert to the universe that most of us inhabit. Perhaps the Reps, having been closest to the previous management approach, are the greatest confirmed believers in the reality of the parallel universe - up until this dispute, their entire experience is of the old style regime. They therefore find the greatest difficulty in coming to terms with the "normal" universe.
Unfortunately, all the signs are that the Branch Committees and a goodly prportion of the membership simply can't come to terms with the new reality, and there can therefore only be one outcome.
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the normal rules of industrial engagement and organisational effectiveness have been abandoned in favour of some apparent desire to be seen to be nice to employees and particularly the Unions.
BA cannot ask the rest of the staff to take pay freezes and productivity cutbacks in manpower (ie working harder) if they aren't seen to be applying that to all staff including CC.
BA have now found ways to keep flying - the VCC/wetlease - and deter CC from striking - staff travel, and not being able to go sick, which many CC did in the past rather than actually strike. BA also need to be seen to protect strike breakers from harassment, hence the disciplinaries.
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Let's not forget a matter of much greater importance, so far ignored by "analysts" and the unions,- and most of the staff.
On 24th January BA as a standalone independent company ceases to exist. It becomes a component of Spanish registered International consolidated Airlines Group (IAG) and has to fight for funds within that group.
Fortunately for the BA part of the business, Iberia is a similar, high cost legacy carrier with problems of old fashioned labour agreements, an indifferent overall reputation for service and although it has an attractive and under utilised base , Spain isn't actually on the way to anywhere other than South America for passengers originating outside a corner of southern Europe and South America.
It is time that the unions , shareholders and all other interested parties moved on and started thinking about this rather than wasting their time on relative trivials like this particular dispute. There's a tsunami out there!
On 24th January BA as a standalone independent company ceases to exist. It becomes a component of Spanish registered International consolidated Airlines Group (IAG) and has to fight for funds within that group.
Fortunately for the BA part of the business, Iberia is a similar, high cost legacy carrier with problems of old fashioned labour agreements, an indifferent overall reputation for service and although it has an attractive and under utilised base , Spain isn't actually on the way to anywhere other than South America for passengers originating outside a corner of southern Europe and South America.
It is time that the unions , shareholders and all other interested parties moved on and started thinking about this rather than wasting their time on relative trivials like this particular dispute. There's a tsunami out there!
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Amicus/CC89 and BASSA reps not being shown the respect they so crave and deserve
Respect is a quality that must be earned.
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My error..should have placed quotes around that section.
Its a line from a movie that I've always remembered. Spoken by a rather greasy character who is his own worst enemy who just couldn't understand why the world was not recognizing him for the fabulous leader he felt he was.
Its a line from a movie that I've always remembered. Spoken by a rather greasy character who is his own worst enemy who just couldn't understand why the world was not recognizing him for the fabulous leader he felt he was.
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From that link above: -
I dont believe a word of the above and suggest that Unite make the allergation direct to the CAA if they do, backed up with evidence if they can.
The atmosphere of fear in the work place is so great that issues of safety are not being reported through fear of reprisals from managers and other senior personnel. Numerous safety reports sent to British Airways and the CAA are felt by crew to be ignored.