Reasons for delays
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Reasons for delays
Now airlines are expected to explain even the shortest delays to their passengers. In the last couple of weeks flying between LHR and FRA with Lufthansa I've had the pilots arriving late for their flight (very common and entirely plausible), having to top up with fuel (at FRA) at the last minute because there was none available at LHR (this on the day of the warehouse fire) and the pilot noticing a dent in the (brand new) aircraft during walkround so they had to wait for maintenance to check it out before flying. I guess some airlines might have been less explicit about that one, citing unexplained 'technical checks'.
None of the delays have been more than 15 minutes, but it just started me wondering about the most original, inventive or frankly incredible excuses to have been offered to passengers ...
Have to say in passing that I've been impressed with Lufthansa. Good, professional, no nonsense service all round.
None of the delays have been more than 15 minutes, but it just started me wondering about the most original, inventive or frankly incredible excuses to have been offered to passengers ...
Have to say in passing that I've been impressed with Lufthansa. Good, professional, no nonsense service all round.
Not incredible at all, but on a flight we took from Brisbane to Auckland a while ago, one of the last pax to board was an elderly lady.
The poor dear tripped and broke her leg somewhere on the airbridge, and, of course, couldn't fly.
We were sitting up front, on the left, and watched them remove, one at a time, and search the contents of about 7 containers before they finally located her luggage about an hour later. (2 items, each in different containers. No luggage tracking, evidently.)
I don't think anybody minded at all. Hope she was OK.
The poor dear tripped and broke her leg somewhere on the airbridge, and, of course, couldn't fly.
We were sitting up front, on the left, and watched them remove, one at a time, and search the contents of about 7 containers before they finally located her luggage about an hour later. (2 items, each in different containers. No luggage tracking, evidently.)
I don't think anybody minded at all. Hope she was OK.
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Actually, I couldn't give a 'jot' what excuse is given, just as long as the aeroplane is made safe for commiting to aviation. If it's broke; fix it; and then get under-way.
There will always be disruptive passengers who will want adequate compensation; hence the 'need to know' why we're late. Flight Crew, just like passengers, can be delayed arriving at the aircraft for all manner of reasons.
Many years ago a colleague of mine couldn't make-it to the airport (an out-station; MAN); the engine in his car gave up the ghost and that he was stranded in the middle of nowhere. I was called-out (as standby crew) but that I couldn't drive to MAN, from southern England, in time for the departure. My company asked me to drive to LGW and report to the General Aviation Terminal where I was bundled aboard a Learjet for the short trajectory to MAN. The Learjet taxied right up to the steps of our waiting L1011; where I was met by raptuous applause from our waiting passengers. The passengers had been told that the other crewmember had been involved in a road accident... it was easier to explain! The absent crewmember waited for several hours to be rescued by a recovery vehicle somewhere in the depth of Wales; no mobile signal; but that he'd walked quite a few miles to find a house with a telephone.
Sometimes it's easier to tell a 'white lie' than get involved with a lengthy explanation. He turned-up at MAN just as we got airborne for Teneriffe.
There will always be disruptive passengers who will want adequate compensation; hence the 'need to know' why we're late. Flight Crew, just like passengers, can be delayed arriving at the aircraft for all manner of reasons.
Many years ago a colleague of mine couldn't make-it to the airport (an out-station; MAN); the engine in his car gave up the ghost and that he was stranded in the middle of nowhere. I was called-out (as standby crew) but that I couldn't drive to MAN, from southern England, in time for the departure. My company asked me to drive to LGW and report to the General Aviation Terminal where I was bundled aboard a Learjet for the short trajectory to MAN. The Learjet taxied right up to the steps of our waiting L1011; where I was met by raptuous applause from our waiting passengers. The passengers had been told that the other crewmember had been involved in a road accident... it was easier to explain! The absent crewmember waited for several hours to be rescued by a recovery vehicle somewhere in the depth of Wales; no mobile signal; but that he'd walked quite a few miles to find a house with a telephone.
Sometimes it's easier to tell a 'white lie' than get involved with a lengthy explanation. He turned-up at MAN just as we got airborne for Teneriffe.
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Best I had was at LDY - all boarded on the first flight of day to DUB. Taxied out and sitting on runway when pilot informed us we would have a 10 min delay. One of firemen had slept in but was on way - and we couldnt go till he was onsite.
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Originally Posted by TheChitterneFlyer
There will always be disruptive passengers who will want adequate compensation...
Rail companies have to refund part or all of the fare if a train is delayed, and there are EU-wide laws laying out exactly what an airline's responsibilities (and a passenger's rights) are in the event of a delay.
It is only by demanding our rights that we will rid the airline industry of the current attitude that airlines are doing us a favour by taking us to where we want to go.
Rusland,
Your post was spot on.
Too many in Aviation have come from the Civil Service and MoD type of environment. - That is where Aviation was founded in most parts of Europe.
However, that means that many (but not all) of the employees in Aviation have an internal and producer focus. Whilst they vaguely acknowledge that their pay comes from somewhere, too many of them are not obsessed by customer service when they should all be obsessed by customer service.
A great customer service - from booking through to flying - can be had in Aviation, but it is too rare!
For instance, in June I had to book a couple of BA flights - the booking agent that I spoke to was superb - could not have been better. I wish all my BA interactions were that good.
Your post was spot on.
Too many in Aviation have come from the Civil Service and MoD type of environment. - That is where Aviation was founded in most parts of Europe.
However, that means that many (but not all) of the employees in Aviation have an internal and producer focus. Whilst they vaguely acknowledge that their pay comes from somewhere, too many of them are not obsessed by customer service when they should all be obsessed by customer service.
A great customer service - from booking through to flying - can be had in Aviation, but it is too rare!
For instance, in June I had to book a couple of BA flights - the booking agent that I spoke to was superb - could not have been better. I wish all my BA interactions were that good.
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Well, aren't we lucky to have you two to put us in our place.
Here's another factoid nugget; If just half as many people were half as important as they think they are, there would be twice as many private jets buzzing about.
Here's another factoid nugget; If just half as many people were half as important as they think they are, there would be twice as many private jets buzzing about.
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Whilst they vaguely acknowledge that their pay comes from somewhere, too many of them are not obsessed by customer service when they should all be obsessed by customer service.
Have a read of the "Wrong Weight Entry...Again" thread in the FD forum and you'll hopefully see why your opinion is misguided.
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Why do you consider it 'disruptive' to expect proper compensation for delays?
Rail companies have to refund part or all of the fare if a train is delayed, and there are EU-wide laws laying out exactly what an airline's responsibilities (and a passenger's rights) are in the event of a delay.
It is only by demanding our rights that we will rid the airline industry of the current attitude that airlines are doing us a favour by taking us to where we want to go.
Rail companies have to refund part or all of the fare if a train is delayed, and there are EU-wide laws laying out exactly what an airline's responsibilities (and a passenger's rights) are in the event of a delay.
It is only by demanding our rights that we will rid the airline industry of the current attitude that airlines are doing us a favour by taking us to where we want to go.
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They are when you pay a pound for your ticket!!!!!
Value paid for ticket has absolutely zero relevance to the service expected on a LoCo - slightly different on scheduled with different cabins/ticket classes.
In summary if I pay £1 for my ticket it doesn't give Airline R any more right to **** on me than if I'd paid £200 for the same flight
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Compensation for delay
A recent ruling by the European Court of Justice decided that the compensation payments for cancelled flights should apply also to delays over three hours, if the cause ‘could have been avoided’
OK, consider this scenario. A fully-booked 747 is about to depart when a service truck operated by a third-party handling agent makes contact with the control surfaces on the wing. A full and lengthy inspection reveals no damage and the aircraft is ready to leave two hours late – but ATC do not have a slot for it for a further 30 minutes. But by then the crew do not have the hours to operate the sector and a relief crew have to be called out and the flight leaves 3h30 late.
So the passengers claim compensation, at the EU long-haul rate of €600. That’s just about a quarter of a million Euros for the plane-full. Hang on – the return flight is also fully booked and also delayed, so now we’re talking about a half a million compensation liability for the round trip. The ‘cause’ of the problem – negligence by a third-party handler, could very well be regarded by the National Enforcement Body (and eventually the courts) as bringing it within the scope of the EU ruling.
So – the airline pays out half a million and immediately starts proceedings to get it back from – whom? The third-party handler? But they were responsible for only two hours of the delay. ATC? – the reason for the slot delay might or might not have been due to a deficiency on their part, but they still didn’t take the delay beyond three hours, it was a duty time regulation that did that.
Whether or not the passengers eventually get their compensation there is one thing you can be sure of – by the end of the process a lot of money will have flowed out of the aviation value chain (airline … groundhandler … ATC) and into the pockets of various lawyers.
OK, consider this scenario. A fully-booked 747 is about to depart when a service truck operated by a third-party handling agent makes contact with the control surfaces on the wing. A full and lengthy inspection reveals no damage and the aircraft is ready to leave two hours late – but ATC do not have a slot for it for a further 30 minutes. But by then the crew do not have the hours to operate the sector and a relief crew have to be called out and the flight leaves 3h30 late.
So the passengers claim compensation, at the EU long-haul rate of €600. That’s just about a quarter of a million Euros for the plane-full. Hang on – the return flight is also fully booked and also delayed, so now we’re talking about a half a million compensation liability for the round trip. The ‘cause’ of the problem – negligence by a third-party handler, could very well be regarded by the National Enforcement Body (and eventually the courts) as bringing it within the scope of the EU ruling.
So – the airline pays out half a million and immediately starts proceedings to get it back from – whom? The third-party handler? But they were responsible for only two hours of the delay. ATC? – the reason for the slot delay might or might not have been due to a deficiency on their part, but they still didn’t take the delay beyond three hours, it was a duty time regulation that did that.
Whether or not the passengers eventually get their compensation there is one thing you can be sure of – by the end of the process a lot of money will have flowed out of the aviation value chain (airline … groundhandler … ATC) and into the pockets of various lawyers.
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Oh really? So you think that flight crew should be "obssessed by customer service"? No, I don't think so. It's important, sure, but it comes after safety.
It seems to me that there are two reasons for giving the reason for the delay. Firstly, it means that passengers can make a personal assessment as to whether they need to do anything to mitigate the delay. If I'm told that a passenger hasn't turned up and their baggage needs to be offloaded, then I know that there is a finite limit to the delay and I probably don't need to be making any arrangements. But if there's a technical problem which might not be easily resolved, then (if the doors are still open) I might want to phone and rearrange the appointments that I've got arranged at my destination. Or speak to the cabin crew about any connecting flight issues.
Secondly, of course, there is the question of compensation, since (whatever view you have of the rights and wrongs of the legislation) an entitlement to compensation in addition to a refund is dependent upon the reason for the delay. I have limited sympathy for an airline that deliberately chooses not to inform passengers of the reason for the delay to try to avoid paying additional compensation, since they are gaining an unfair competitive advantage over other operators.
Anyhow, back to reasons for delays. I can't offhand think of any particularly unusual ones that I've heard from an airline. It could only have been on a train in England, however, when the train came to a juddering halt and after a short period I heard the driver announce "I'm very sorry for the delay to your service. There is a swan on the line and we're waiting for the RSPCA to attend and move it."
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Have a read of the "Wrong Weight Entry...Again" thread in the FD forum and you'll hopefully see why your opinion is misguided.
Compounded the error by calculating for a smaller/lighter aircraft.
What connection is there with customer service and this negligence?
Here is an interesting reason for a delay, then a flight cancellation.
July 6, 2010, DFW. Our AA Flight was first delayed for an hour. Flight then cancelled, and the mad scramble to get on a later flight, which failed.
We later learned what happened. (Or maybe this was a lie, who knows?)
Someone at DFW tower/ATC is reported to have spotted a funnel cloud (yes, it was raining) within some distance of the airport, and they did what SOP required that they do. Abandon the tower until the all clear was given.
That ended up in over 100 flights being cancelled, all airlines.
Was anybody else in DFW on 06 July about the middle of the day with a similar problem? We ended up spending the night on my dime, and AA didn't do as they'd promised when I went to the desk, which was to keep my bags in DFW and let me carry them back on.
Rant, not quite about flight cancellation ...
No, they just sent them on to destination ... even after stating to me, with the little computer bar coded tickets in my hand as I spoke with the desk agent that they'd take them off so we'd have our stuff when we spent the night.
Side issue, but annoying as hell when they lied to my face and it took me two hours of phone calls, beyond the hour of waiting for them at a baggage area for bags that never showed up (me and bout fifty other people who'd been promised the same ... ) to figure out where the hell they were.
July 6, 2010, DFW. Our AA Flight was first delayed for an hour. Flight then cancelled, and the mad scramble to get on a later flight, which failed.
We later learned what happened. (Or maybe this was a lie, who knows?)
Someone at DFW tower/ATC is reported to have spotted a funnel cloud (yes, it was raining) within some distance of the airport, and they did what SOP required that they do. Abandon the tower until the all clear was given.
That ended up in over 100 flights being cancelled, all airlines.
Was anybody else in DFW on 06 July about the middle of the day with a similar problem? We ended up spending the night on my dime, and AA didn't do as they'd promised when I went to the desk, which was to keep my bags in DFW and let me carry them back on.
Rant, not quite about flight cancellation ...
No, they just sent them on to destination ... even after stating to me, with the little computer bar coded tickets in my hand as I spoke with the desk agent that they'd take them off so we'd have our stuff when we spent the night.
Side issue, but annoying as hell when they lied to my face and it took me two hours of phone calls, beyond the hour of waiting for them at a baggage area for bags that never showed up (me and bout fifty other people who'd been promised the same ... ) to figure out where the hell they were.
Nicholas,
that was not a helpful contribution. I really cannot understand what you mean.
Safety is and will always be no 1 from a UK perspective. (I'm not sure about the USA as their FAA have combined responsibilities which means they have to take commercial interests in to account.)
However, having safety as no 1 is no reason for the awfully slack approach to customer service that exists in many parts of Aviation.
Thus, ALL staff should be obsessed by customer service.
that was not a helpful contribution. I really cannot understand what you mean.
Safety is and will always be no 1 from a UK perspective. (I'm not sure about the USA as their FAA have combined responsibilities which means they have to take commercial interests in to account.)
However, having safety as no 1 is no reason for the awfully slack approach to customer service that exists in many parts of Aviation.
Thus, ALL staff should be obsessed by customer service.
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Ancient Observer, you didn't state in your original post that "safety is a number one priority", so I thought you were saying that customer service comes above all else. I think I took objection to your use of the word "obsessed". It is absolutely not the job of the pilots to be "obsessed" with customer service: any professional will back me up on that one. However, I apologise if that was not what you meant. (Of course, safety isn't actually the number 1 priority for a profit-making airline. The real priority is...making a profit, but we won't go down that one...)
The reference to the other thread is to highlight how "being obsessed" with customer service / pressure from managers about on-time departures may lead to trouble (if that was indeed the reason).
For the record: I do believe that passengers should be kept informed, but in my experience they invariably are!
The reference to the other thread is to highlight how "being obsessed" with customer service / pressure from managers about on-time departures may lead to trouble (if that was indeed the reason).
For the record: I do believe that passengers should be kept informed, but in my experience they invariably are!
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Nick I too interpreted Ancient Observers post as you did.
I also know exactly where you are coming from here with regard to safety vs customer service in relation to the Pilot's. It's also a consideration for the CC. I am commited to customer service but if there is a safety issue around giving that customer service then I'm afraid safety takes priority.
Safety is the stated number 1 priority of all UK airlines. In reality the beancounters would rather it wasn't because at times it interferes with their bottom line. However in all the years I have been flying I have never yet seen a Captain take a plane out when he shouldn't to please airline operations/management. The crew on any particular flight are "obsessed" by safety not customer service and sometimes the two clash.
As CC I will curtail a service if I feel it is unsafe to continue due to turbulence. That effects our commision and the company's ancillary revenue. Pax will make a formal complaint re this if they have not received their G&T and nuts as they see this as poor customer service. Most have little/no perception of any safety issue at this time despite the fact they are told on PA.
There are of course people in aviation who really should be "obsessed" by customer service.... PSA's/check in staff/ground staff, booking agents, call centre agents and those employed as customer services "champions" so I agree with Ancient Observer on that point.
As CC I frequently take the flack when any of these fail on the way to the pax boarding.......
I'm thread drifting!! Back to reasons for delay. Well I've been flying for many years both as crew and SLF and experienced many delays. At all times I have been informed of the reason.....mostly by the Captain of the departing flight. He takes time out (when he doesn't have to) from the pre take off checks to tell the pax.....that is commitment to customer service IMHO
I also know exactly where you are coming from here with regard to safety vs customer service in relation to the Pilot's. It's also a consideration for the CC. I am commited to customer service but if there is a safety issue around giving that customer service then I'm afraid safety takes priority.
Safety is the stated number 1 priority of all UK airlines. In reality the beancounters would rather it wasn't because at times it interferes with their bottom line. However in all the years I have been flying I have never yet seen a Captain take a plane out when he shouldn't to please airline operations/management. The crew on any particular flight are "obsessed" by safety not customer service and sometimes the two clash.
As CC I will curtail a service if I feel it is unsafe to continue due to turbulence. That effects our commision and the company's ancillary revenue. Pax will make a formal complaint re this if they have not received their G&T and nuts as they see this as poor customer service. Most have little/no perception of any safety issue at this time despite the fact they are told on PA.
There are of course people in aviation who really should be "obsessed" by customer service.... PSA's/check in staff/ground staff, booking agents, call centre agents and those employed as customer services "champions" so I agree with Ancient Observer on that point.
As CC I frequently take the flack when any of these fail on the way to the pax boarding.......
I'm thread drifting!! Back to reasons for delay. Well I've been flying for many years both as crew and SLF and experienced many delays. At all times I have been informed of the reason.....mostly by the Captain of the departing flight. He takes time out (when he doesn't have to) from the pre take off checks to tell the pax.....that is commitment to customer service IMHO
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Speaking of a pile of %%$#*&&
K3lvc & others,
This sentence of yours (In summary if I pay £1 for my ticket it doesn't give Airline R any more right to **** on me than if I'd paid £200 for the same flight) reminded me of a incident that happened on one of my flight earlier this month.
I needed to use the restroom and placed a call to the flight attendants. The lavatory was in use and I needed to wait until it was available and they would call me back.
When I got to the lavatory I was immediately overcome with the stench of excrement-it was awful. Having changed my share of diapers in the past there was no question as to what I smelled. However a quick look around did not reveal the source. I exited as soon as possible and got some deodorizer and sprayed down the lavatory. Eventually the Flight Attendant “discovered” that a previous user had defecated on top of the toilet seat then smashed the toilet seat and their pile of **** against the side of the airplane, effectively using their feces as glue.
Guess somebody decided the price they paid for the ticket entitled them to “**** on me” (by extension). When dealing with the public I have found that 98% are just fine, 1% are truly outstanding and a complete pleasure to interact with and the remaining 1% are quite unpleasant. Of the 1% that are unpleasant, a fraction of that number, are truly dangerous.
Northbeach
This sentence of yours (In summary if I pay £1 for my ticket it doesn't give Airline R any more right to **** on me than if I'd paid £200 for the same flight) reminded me of a incident that happened on one of my flight earlier this month.
I needed to use the restroom and placed a call to the flight attendants. The lavatory was in use and I needed to wait until it was available and they would call me back.
When I got to the lavatory I was immediately overcome with the stench of excrement-it was awful. Having changed my share of diapers in the past there was no question as to what I smelled. However a quick look around did not reveal the source. I exited as soon as possible and got some deodorizer and sprayed down the lavatory. Eventually the Flight Attendant “discovered” that a previous user had defecated on top of the toilet seat then smashed the toilet seat and their pile of **** against the side of the airplane, effectively using their feces as glue.
Guess somebody decided the price they paid for the ticket entitled them to “**** on me” (by extension). When dealing with the public I have found that 98% are just fine, 1% are truly outstanding and a complete pleasure to interact with and the remaining 1% are quite unpleasant. Of the 1% that are unpleasant, a fraction of that number, are truly dangerous.
Northbeach
Last edited by Northbeach; 30th Jul 2010 at 15:11.