BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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SC
I thinks its clear that evan BASSA dont have a clue how many members they currently have! There is a lot of talk in the other place of crew have have resigned from BASSA from some considerable time being issued with papers for the recent consultative ballot.
I think this is one of the reasons that they are putting off further ballots at this time as they are very open to another legal challange as to its validity
I think this is one of the reasons that they are putting off further ballots at this time as they are very open to another legal challange as to its validity
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dilpome
All I know is what I've either guessed or been told.
If there are 7000 ( or 6500, whatever) strike pay claims to Unite why are only 3500 being deprived of ST? It does not add up. Simple. Have BA mistakenly not removed ST from thousands of strikers? No. Safety Concerns thinks that numbers are wrong due to incompetence. I think it is pure skullduggery.
If there were approx. 10000 members at the time of the last ballot, why did only approx. 50% vote? It was BA's final offer on a matter of fundamental interest and importance to BASSA's members. BASSA were enthusiastic and voluble in urging its members to vote against but only 35% of members did so? Er, I simply don't believe it. Why belong to a Union and not vote on a matter like this? 10 maybe 20% I could explain to myself but not 50%.
You will see that the number of voters against is roughly equal to the number of cc with ST removed - 3500 or thereabouts. That makes sense doesn't it?
If there are 7000 ( or 6500, whatever) strike pay claims to Unite why are only 3500 being deprived of ST? It does not add up. Simple. Have BA mistakenly not removed ST from thousands of strikers? No. Safety Concerns thinks that numbers are wrong due to incompetence. I think it is pure skullduggery.
If there were approx. 10000 members at the time of the last ballot, why did only approx. 50% vote? It was BA's final offer on a matter of fundamental interest and importance to BASSA's members. BASSA were enthusiastic and voluble in urging its members to vote against but only 35% of members did so? Er, I simply don't believe it. Why belong to a Union and not vote on a matter like this? 10 maybe 20% I could explain to myself but not 50%.
You will see that the number of voters against is roughly equal to the number of cc with ST removed - 3500 or thereabouts. That makes sense doesn't it?
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cym
Yes they are in a fix but not through lack of knowledge.
With approx. 3500 militants ( read ST has been removed ) who would vote for IA the only way a majority could be claimed was if the membership dropped to below 7000, and an authoritative yes vote would need numbers to drop way below 50% of cc population. Yes, a real fix.
With approx. 3500 militants ( read ST has been removed ) who would vote for IA the only way a majority could be claimed was if the membership dropped to below 7000, and an authoritative yes vote would need numbers to drop way below 50% of cc population. Yes, a real fix.
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mrpony
Totally agree BASSA are in real trouble - and guess what BA know how many subcriptions they are deducting from staff salaries!
My feeling is that if they do attempt to carry out a ballot for IA, BA will just let it happen and then go for an injunction making both BASSA and Unite look like fools (again).
They have had 7 months to get their act together on this front and still dont have a clue. Well worth paying your subs for if your still a member
My feeling is that if they do attempt to carry out a ballot for IA, BA will just let it happen and then go for an injunction making both BASSA and Unite look like fools (again).
They have had 7 months to get their act together on this front and still dont have a clue. Well worth paying your subs for if your still a member
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BASSA membership numbers
This is obviously a key issue at this stage in this dispute, and several posters have pointed out blatant inconsistencies in some of the numbers bandied about. Some have even suggested that BASSA themselves don't have a clue.
I am prepared to accept that their admin is in complete chaos, but I would have thought that they have a pretty good handle on how much money is going into their bank account each month, particularly if the allegations of commission payments are true. So, they should know how many members they have, even if they don't know who they are.
Therefore, if there is any overstatement on their part, it seems to me it would be more likely to be due to porkies than ignorance.
I am prepared to accept that their admin is in complete chaos, but I would have thought that they have a pretty good handle on how much money is going into their bank account each month, particularly if the allegations of commission payments are true. So, they should know how many members they have, even if they don't know who they are.
Therefore, if there is any overstatement on their part, it seems to me it would be more likely to be due to porkies than ignorance.
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I think this is more about spin and presentation than anything else. You have to remember who the BASSA updates are for - their own membership.
BASSA are locked in what they believe is a life and death struggle with BA and that Willie is set upon destroying them. They have run a series of lack lustre strikes that have not achieved their goal of forcing the company to cave in to their demands. They see that the strike has cost their members money and staff travel benefits and that they are no further forward in their aims. This is now a "marathon" - well that maybe true and if it is BASSA must ensure that the support that they have remains solid.
These missives are aimed at the XXXXers, they are an attempt to keep them onside. They are moral boosters designed to make XXXXers feel like they were part of a mass movement, that 7000 out of 9500 members of BASSA took strike action. If they were to let slip that there was only 3500 members who had the courage to risk their jobs and ST despite many more voting for strike action, they run the risk that what support there is will start to crumble. DH is writing for an ever reducing core of stalwarts - he has to keep them onside or it is all over, and the defining event of DH's career will have been the emasculation of BASSA, he will have overseen the demise of his own union. This is something he and BASSA has to avoid at all costs - hence the purple prose.
There is also, I suspect, an element of incompetence as well. BASSA has a track record of inefficient book keeping and poor data base maintenance.
BASSA are locked in what they believe is a life and death struggle with BA and that Willie is set upon destroying them. They have run a series of lack lustre strikes that have not achieved their goal of forcing the company to cave in to their demands. They see that the strike has cost their members money and staff travel benefits and that they are no further forward in their aims. This is now a "marathon" - well that maybe true and if it is BASSA must ensure that the support that they have remains solid.
These missives are aimed at the XXXXers, they are an attempt to keep them onside. They are moral boosters designed to make XXXXers feel like they were part of a mass movement, that 7000 out of 9500 members of BASSA took strike action. If they were to let slip that there was only 3500 members who had the courage to risk their jobs and ST despite many more voting for strike action, they run the risk that what support there is will start to crumble. DH is writing for an ever reducing core of stalwarts - he has to keep them onside or it is all over, and the defining event of DH's career will have been the emasculation of BASSA, he will have overseen the demise of his own union. This is something he and BASSA has to avoid at all costs - hence the purple prose.
There is also, I suspect, an element of incompetence as well. BASSA has a track record of inefficient book keeping and poor data base maintenance.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 4th Aug 2010 at 11:55.
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To be honest, I don't know how this is going to be concluded. There are many things that have been predicted, but haven't happened:
a) Unite hasn't cut BASSA lose
b) BA hasn't "gone nuclear" and imposed an entirely new contract on crew
c) BASSA hasn't imploded (or at least we cannot say it has for definite)
d) The strikes did not collapse (BA may have been able to run the majority of services, but there was still a sizeable minority that went on strike)
As evidenced the numbers of crew voting no to the latest proposal, there is still a sizeable minority holding out, whether through personal determination or loyalty to BASSA.
There are so many unknowns at the moment (how many non union members accepted the offer, how many crew are still in BASSA etc).
Assuming BASSA manages to retain collective bargaining rights, if BA wants to put through contractual changes, it has to do that with BASSA and regardless of support for further strikes, I can't see BASSA conceding defeat and reaching agreement.
a) Unite hasn't cut BASSA lose
b) BA hasn't "gone nuclear" and imposed an entirely new contract on crew
c) BASSA hasn't imploded (or at least we cannot say it has for definite)
d) The strikes did not collapse (BA may have been able to run the majority of services, but there was still a sizeable minority that went on strike)
As evidenced the numbers of crew voting no to the latest proposal, there is still a sizeable minority holding out, whether through personal determination or loyalty to BASSA.
There are so many unknowns at the moment (how many non union members accepted the offer, how many crew are still in BASSA etc).
Assuming BASSA manages to retain collective bargaining rights, if BA wants to put through contractual changes, it has to do that with BASSA and regardless of support for further strikes, I can't see BASSA conceding defeat and reaching agreement.
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From Safety Concerns
"So he drags this out to make them sweat and then a compromise is found to avoid any further strikes.
Would Bassa survive in the aftermath of such a scenario?
Would Unite be damaged by this?"
I think the pivotal word in there is compromise. BA have offered compromise with regards ST, BASSA say its unacceptable. BASSA cannot in my opinion survive this dispute, it has entrenched it position to such a depth it cannot move. It has so far caused damage not only to BA but more importantly its members and any reversal of its position would quite rightly see injured members shouting for answers as to why this happened and what recompense they can seek against their union.
I heard mention of BASSA using the word marathon for this dispute. To me this points to a unrealistic view of the real world. Union members cannot go on strike indefinately, cannot pay for full fare tickets to commute to work. The longer the dispute goes on the less relevant any threat of IA will be. Unite will not be harmed, it will still be there as a union representing other branches at BA.
I don't know if it would be legal, but if i was BA i would be "leaking" that the same offer as has just been sent out will be available again to anyone not in the union. That way it gives those still in the union a chance to vote with their feet. Either leave the union and take the offer, or stay and support an increasingly marginalised minority and suffer the consequences. BA cannot let this drag on.
"So he drags this out to make them sweat and then a compromise is found to avoid any further strikes.
Would Bassa survive in the aftermath of such a scenario?
Would Unite be damaged by this?"
I think the pivotal word in there is compromise. BA have offered compromise with regards ST, BASSA say its unacceptable. BASSA cannot in my opinion survive this dispute, it has entrenched it position to such a depth it cannot move. It has so far caused damage not only to BA but more importantly its members and any reversal of its position would quite rightly see injured members shouting for answers as to why this happened and what recompense they can seek against their union.
I heard mention of BASSA using the word marathon for this dispute. To me this points to a unrealistic view of the real world. Union members cannot go on strike indefinately, cannot pay for full fare tickets to commute to work. The longer the dispute goes on the less relevant any threat of IA will be. Unite will not be harmed, it will still be there as a union representing other branches at BA.
I don't know if it would be legal, but if i was BA i would be "leaking" that the same offer as has just been sent out will be available again to anyone not in the union. That way it gives those still in the union a chance to vote with their feet. Either leave the union and take the offer, or stay and support an increasingly marginalised minority and suffer the consequences. BA cannot let this drag on.
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I don't know if it would be legal, but if i was BA i would be "leaking" that the same offer as has just been sent out will be available again to anyone not in the union.
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SC..
savaged because you didn't agree that all Bassa members should be hung drawn and quartered and what a horrible bunch of company killing fools they are.
You say you 'are airline'. It is welcome, in this 'non-airline' forum to get the occasional insight from the coal face. But what you are bringing, as possibly the most active contributor of late, is not so much insight, as subjective opinions, backed up by a certain obstinacy that invites response. So, I don't think the persecution message or the premise behind it are justified.
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IA 2007
read this for a laugh. Holley's quote is foretelling the future
BA cabin crew accuse T&G union boss of 'selling out' over strike - Business News, Business - The Independent
Bassa needs you the membership to be behind it and not fragmenting amongst a torrent of personal abuse. We have enough enemies out there without fighting each other.
BA cabin crew accuse T&G union boss of 'selling out' over strike - Business News, Business - The Independent
Bassa needs you the membership to be behind it and not fragmenting amongst a torrent of personal abuse. We have enough enemies out there without fighting each other.
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@Snas.
Thought as much
. If there are any moderate BASSA members left in the union, and I assume there must be some ( the votes for accepting the offer numbers) I can only imagine the quandary they must be in regarding continued union membership.
Thought as much
. If there are any moderate BASSA members left in the union, and I assume there must be some ( the votes for accepting the offer numbers) I can only imagine the quandary they must be in regarding continued union membership.
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JohnoWhiskey
You are correct, my own partner thought long and hard about leaving, the process commencing with the 12 days announcement, she had abstained from that ballot.
She held membership to allow her to cast a no vote in the re-ballot that followed and then left, I know many members retained membership specifically so that they could vote against further IA and are still members – the result of this being that they were unable to accept the offer as mailed out by Mr Francis a week or so back. This is unfortunate, not BA’s fault as such as they are legally prevented from attempting to encourage employees to leave (or switch) a union.
My partner’s situation (I’ll be brief as I have been banging on about it enough recently) was that she left in Feb but has been fighting to get the union to acknowledge same ever since, she doesn’t seem to be alone in this regard.
The acceptance of the offer however was basically a self declaration that you were not a union member on the date, which she was able to honestly make.
I’m left to wonder how many wanted to sign but were unable to or indeed how many were unable to but signed anyway?
For my part BASSA is a bad union, end of. She's better off out. The very idea that any of the fools that I have come to know so well since Christmas should ever have to represent her at any form of hearing would fill me with dread.
You are correct, my own partner thought long and hard about leaving, the process commencing with the 12 days announcement, she had abstained from that ballot.
She held membership to allow her to cast a no vote in the re-ballot that followed and then left, I know many members retained membership specifically so that they could vote against further IA and are still members – the result of this being that they were unable to accept the offer as mailed out by Mr Francis a week or so back. This is unfortunate, not BA’s fault as such as they are legally prevented from attempting to encourage employees to leave (or switch) a union.
My partner’s situation (I’ll be brief as I have been banging on about it enough recently) was that she left in Feb but has been fighting to get the union to acknowledge same ever since, she doesn’t seem to be alone in this regard.
The acceptance of the offer however was basically a self declaration that you were not a union member on the date, which she was able to honestly make.
I’m left to wonder how many wanted to sign but were unable to or indeed how many were unable to but signed anyway?
For my part BASSA is a bad union, end of. She's better off out. The very idea that any of the fools that I have come to know so well since Christmas should ever have to represent her at any form of hearing would fill me with dread.
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I have to say that my own inclination would be to jump ship as soon as possible. While the worry and uncertainty of being without a union would undoubtedly cause me a few sleepless nights..the worry at what path the union were going to lead me down would be the greater fear.
Does the PCCC offer support to CC in such a situation or even able to assuage any fears of "being on your tod"?
Does the PCCC offer support to CC in such a situation or even able to assuage any fears of "being on your tod"?
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Diplome
You have stated several times in the thread that you do not work for BA and I have no reason to doubt you.
What I said is that you sound like a PR for BA.
Therefore no insinuation that you work for BA.
You have stated several times in the thread that you do not work for BA and I have no reason to doubt you.
What I said is that you sound like a PR for BA.
Therefore no insinuation that you work for BA.
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From that other thread:
When BASSA does finally implode, it will be most interesting to see whether Holley and Everard are parachuted into cosy jobs with Unite, or if they become collateral damage.
I suspect BASSAs [i]piece de resistance[i/] will be getting so many former members onto new contracts which stipulate Unite as the negotiating body that BASSA can be derecognised by BA. BASSA will be consigned to the history books forever, with Duncan and his cohort of dismissed reps left gnashing their teeth and wondering who to blame next.
Paxing All Over The World
In Germany, the Unions have long had a policy of 'jumping around a bit' but everyone knows that they will come to a good, workmanlike agreement. Consequently, the Unions are still respected by both sides AND still a force to be reckoned with.
The British Unions have, I suggest, always made such a big thing of taking control and taking over the whip, that they were likely to have overshot from the outset. Whilst British Unions had a great deal to overcome and certainly were needed to redress the balance - they have lost the battle. NOT because of govt action but because they have lost public support. I think that the public would still support a strike by nurses but never by well paid cabin crew. Also, let's not re-hash how well or badly paid they are, they have a job with privileges. That is enough!
The British Unions have, I suggest, always made such a big thing of taking control and taking over the whip, that they were likely to have overshot from the outset. Whilst British Unions had a great deal to overcome and certainly were needed to redress the balance - they have lost the battle. NOT because of govt action but because they have lost public support. I think that the public would still support a strike by nurses but never by well paid cabin crew. Also, let's not re-hash how well or badly paid they are, they have a job with privileges. That is enough!
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4923
...that is the number of strikers WW has now given as definitive, according to the other thread.
Not the wistful 7000 being put about the media by Holley and Simpson
A large minority but still sub-critical.
Not the wistful 7000 being put about the media by Holley and Simpson
A large minority but still sub-critical.