BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
Marginal cost
Considering what must be the total cost of a service to Australia and all that contributes to it, I find it rather hard to believe that cabin crew pay was the deal breaker.
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For European airlines as a whole, on longhaul, cabin crew represents the biggest single cost category, after fuel. In the last two years it has overtaken sales/distribution/promotion costs, and maintenance & overhaul.
If you think it's easy to make money on Australian routes, think of the airlines who have abandoned the market - Air France, Lufthansa, KLM, Alitalia, Austrian, Olympic ...
If you think it's easy to make money on Australian routes, think of the airlines who have abandoned the market - Air France, Lufthansa, KLM, Alitalia, Austrian, Olympic ...
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Alot of people are just making stuff up on this forum to suit their own personal feelings.
First of all I will address the issue of the Melbourne service. This service was removed because of low loads when it was a part of a shuttle from Sydney or because of the bad utilisation of the aircraft, as mentioned by Wiggy, when it was a terminating flight direct from Singapore. Cabin crew costs pale into insugnificance compared to the costs of having an aircraft sit on the ground or fly with low loads. At certain times of the year the loads were ok but BA being a schedualled carrier has to fly and operate a year long schedual and unless a flight is full it cannot make a profit it has nothing to do with the crew costs.
BA does need to get it's crew costs down as well as get many of it's other costs down, but the example and reasoning that it is the cabin crew costs that caused this flight to be cancelled is completely incorrect.
The link up with Qantas as a full code share partner also played a part in the decision. Many of you may have noticed that British Airways flights to Austrailia are being operated out of Terminal 3 not Terminal 5 and this is also because of our strong link with Qantas and the need for both airlines to operate out of the same terminal.( I am not sure but I think I heard that this was at Qantas's request that we both depart from the same terminal at LHR.)
Now I will address the posts that suggest that BA does not operate flights from the Far East during the day because of the cabin crew union insisting on bunk rest longer than the legal requiremet.
This is yet again totally untrue and just made up information.
The maximum duty day of any one sector flight duty can vary between 11 hours to 14.3 hours long. The duty day starts 1 hour before the flight and ends at chocks. The length of the duty day depends on a number of factors and these are the rest taken before the flight and between the proceeding flight, the time of day of the departure and whether the crew is aclimatised to the time zone or not.
In order to extend a flight beyond the normal maximum duty day as above, and make it a long range flight, bunk rest is required for all the crew. The minimum bunk rest required is 3 hours. So as all Far East flights fall into the long range category, 3 hours is the minimum bunk rest legaly required and for some flights it could be 4 hours. The duty period is increased by one half of the total rest taken. So if three hours rest was taken then the duty day could be increased by 1 1/2 hours only and so 4 hours in the bunk extends the duty day by 2 hours only. So as you can see alot of bunk rest is required by the CAA to extend the flight duty day by just a small amount.
As 3 hours is the bare minimum for a shorter long range flight you can see how achieving this is hard for any airline. 3 hours rest plus 30 mins changeover, between one half of the crew with the other half, and then the second 3 hours rest equals 6 1/2 hours minimum removed from the time available for meal services to be completed.
Now take the time it takes to complete the initial bar and meal service on a flight. It takes approximately 3 hours from take off and until all the meal services are complete. The second smaller meal service takes 1 1/2 hours and it takes a further 1/2 an hour to prepare the cabin for landing. All this adds up to 11.30 hours of rest and service for a short long range flight. Even if BA wanted to do an extra meal service in the middle of the flight there would not be enough time. Or they could maybe put the second meal in the middle, between the two sets of cabin crew rests, but even on day flights many passengers may not want to be woken up or disturbed and then it would leave nothing to serve before landing. The other problem is that there is no space on board the aircraft for a third meal to be stored. The trolley space for even two meal services is very limited.
However BA do provide snacks throuout the flight available from the galley like pot noodles, crisps and buscuits etc.
Now I have gone into a lot of detail for you because I wanted some of you to understand the nature of long range flights and the legal requirement by the CAA for rest during the flight. BA do operate daylight flights to long range destinations and lack of catering space and the long time between meal services is a problem. But it is a problem for all airlines and not just BA.
An ex of mine worked as a pilot for THAI airways and as such I have flown on many of their flights and the bunk rest for their cabin crew is the same and the meal services are at the start and end of the flights just like BA's.
I feel like I have gone on alot but people seem to want to hear detail. It is obviously very anoying for me to see people write incorrect speculation as if it is fact and to rubbish BA cabin crew at the same time. BASSA are at fault for alot of things but crew rest on long range flights is not one nor is the schedual BA adopt nor is where BA fly to the fault of how much BA cabin crew are paid.
Thank you.
Now I hope I haven't upset anyone by explaining the facts and not just guessing the reasons for things. I know that alot of you have been upset by BASSA's industrial action and I too have been upset by this. As I said before I worked during the strike and wanted my union to negotiate not strike but it seems that this IA has caused people to try and blame crew for everything.
Some crew are paid well at the moment and BA are addressing this but I hope no one would want current crew, who have mortgages etc., to have their pay taken off them. Remember BA agreed to all our pay and conditions. Times have changed and the future costs are being addressed and I hope an agreement can be made.
First of all I will address the issue of the Melbourne service. This service was removed because of low loads when it was a part of a shuttle from Sydney or because of the bad utilisation of the aircraft, as mentioned by Wiggy, when it was a terminating flight direct from Singapore. Cabin crew costs pale into insugnificance compared to the costs of having an aircraft sit on the ground or fly with low loads. At certain times of the year the loads were ok but BA being a schedualled carrier has to fly and operate a year long schedual and unless a flight is full it cannot make a profit it has nothing to do with the crew costs.
BA does need to get it's crew costs down as well as get many of it's other costs down, but the example and reasoning that it is the cabin crew costs that caused this flight to be cancelled is completely incorrect.
The link up with Qantas as a full code share partner also played a part in the decision. Many of you may have noticed that British Airways flights to Austrailia are being operated out of Terminal 3 not Terminal 5 and this is also because of our strong link with Qantas and the need for both airlines to operate out of the same terminal.( I am not sure but I think I heard that this was at Qantas's request that we both depart from the same terminal at LHR.)
Now I will address the posts that suggest that BA does not operate flights from the Far East during the day because of the cabin crew union insisting on bunk rest longer than the legal requiremet.
This is yet again totally untrue and just made up information.
The maximum duty day of any one sector flight duty can vary between 11 hours to 14.3 hours long. The duty day starts 1 hour before the flight and ends at chocks. The length of the duty day depends on a number of factors and these are the rest taken before the flight and between the proceeding flight, the time of day of the departure and whether the crew is aclimatised to the time zone or not.
In order to extend a flight beyond the normal maximum duty day as above, and make it a long range flight, bunk rest is required for all the crew. The minimum bunk rest required is 3 hours. So as all Far East flights fall into the long range category, 3 hours is the minimum bunk rest legaly required and for some flights it could be 4 hours. The duty period is increased by one half of the total rest taken. So if three hours rest was taken then the duty day could be increased by 1 1/2 hours only and so 4 hours in the bunk extends the duty day by 2 hours only. So as you can see alot of bunk rest is required by the CAA to extend the flight duty day by just a small amount.
As 3 hours is the bare minimum for a shorter long range flight you can see how achieving this is hard for any airline. 3 hours rest plus 30 mins changeover, between one half of the crew with the other half, and then the second 3 hours rest equals 6 1/2 hours minimum removed from the time available for meal services to be completed.
Now take the time it takes to complete the initial bar and meal service on a flight. It takes approximately 3 hours from take off and until all the meal services are complete. The second smaller meal service takes 1 1/2 hours and it takes a further 1/2 an hour to prepare the cabin for landing. All this adds up to 11.30 hours of rest and service for a short long range flight. Even if BA wanted to do an extra meal service in the middle of the flight there would not be enough time. Or they could maybe put the second meal in the middle, between the two sets of cabin crew rests, but even on day flights many passengers may not want to be woken up or disturbed and then it would leave nothing to serve before landing. The other problem is that there is no space on board the aircraft for a third meal to be stored. The trolley space for even two meal services is very limited.
However BA do provide snacks throuout the flight available from the galley like pot noodles, crisps and buscuits etc.
Now I have gone into a lot of detail for you because I wanted some of you to understand the nature of long range flights and the legal requirement by the CAA for rest during the flight. BA do operate daylight flights to long range destinations and lack of catering space and the long time between meal services is a problem. But it is a problem for all airlines and not just BA.
An ex of mine worked as a pilot for THAI airways and as such I have flown on many of their flights and the bunk rest for their cabin crew is the same and the meal services are at the start and end of the flights just like BA's.
I feel like I have gone on alot but people seem to want to hear detail. It is obviously very anoying for me to see people write incorrect speculation as if it is fact and to rubbish BA cabin crew at the same time. BASSA are at fault for alot of things but crew rest on long range flights is not one nor is the schedual BA adopt nor is where BA fly to the fault of how much BA cabin crew are paid.
Thank you.
Now I hope I haven't upset anyone by explaining the facts and not just guessing the reasons for things. I know that alot of you have been upset by BASSA's industrial action and I too have been upset by this. As I said before I worked during the strike and wanted my union to negotiate not strike but it seems that this IA has caused people to try and blame crew for everything.
Some crew are paid well at the moment and BA are addressing this but I hope no one would want current crew, who have mortgages etc., to have their pay taken off them. Remember BA agreed to all our pay and conditions. Times have changed and the future costs are being addressed and I hope an agreement can be made.
Last edited by Betty girl; 14th Jul 2010 at 15:00. Reason: To correct that duty ends at chocks not 30 mins after as reminded by Hotel mode.
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BA Annual Meeting Live
From the Daily Telegraph website covering the BA AGM live
BA annual meeting live: striking cabin crew, air taxes, Iberia merger - Telegraph
11.25am ... Broughton gets the boot in
First up is Martin Broughton, the Chelsea supporting chairman who doubles up with a job at Liverpool FC. He wastes no time going in two-footed at Bassa - the militant wing of the Unite union that represents the cabin crew.
"They have misrepresented management to their members. They have misrepresented their members' views to management," he says. "The board's patience with Bassa has now been exhausted. "We will win the right to manage."
Walsh's round robin
Willie Walsh, the BA chief executive, picks up the theme, aruing that the airline has made the crew an offer that provides "a genuine opportunity to end this dispute".
IMHO this is good news and shows how the board is firmly behind Willie Walsh's actions
P21
BA annual meeting live: striking cabin crew, air taxes, Iberia merger - Telegraph
11.25am ... Broughton gets the boot in
First up is Martin Broughton, the Chelsea supporting chairman who doubles up with a job at Liverpool FC. He wastes no time going in two-footed at Bassa - the militant wing of the Unite union that represents the cabin crew.
"They have misrepresented management to their members. They have misrepresented their members' views to management," he says. "The board's patience with Bassa has now been exhausted. "We will win the right to manage."
Walsh's round robin
Willie Walsh, the BA chief executive, picks up the theme, aruing that the airline has made the crew an offer that provides "a genuine opportunity to end this dispute".
IMHO this is good news and shows how the board is firmly behind Willie Walsh's actions
P21
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Python21:
Thank you for the link. The question and answer period was rather what I expected.
Never fun events when there is an industrial dispute. I agree that it does seem that the Board is still strongly backing Mr. Walsh which is good, in my opinion, for stockholders looking for the most productive result out of the BASSA situation.
Thank you for the link. The question and answer period was rather what I expected.
Never fun events when there is an industrial dispute. I agree that it does seem that the Board is still strongly backing Mr. Walsh which is good, in my opinion, for stockholders looking for the most productive result out of the BASSA situation.
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I appreciate that betty girl and others are only trying to set the record straight, but you are in fact encouraging those who believe that with a ticket comes entitlement.
Theses 27+ pages have become the equivalent to a party line where people are gossiping about the private lives of celebrities that they believe they are entitled to know about because they once went to see a movie with them in.
Luckily it seems to be the same handful of people who don't seem to understand where the line goes.
Theses 27+ pages have become the equivalent to a party line where people are gossiping about the private lives of celebrities that they believe they are entitled to know about because they once went to see a movie with them in.
Luckily it seems to be the same handful of people who don't seem to understand where the line goes.
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One Outsider.
You are right but this forum is here and people, a few not all, are giving incorrect information out and even when they are corrected, by people that actually work for the airline, they continue.
I just wanted to explain things the way they really are because I am sure that alot of people that come on this thread actually might appreciate the facts not something made up and written as if it is fact. Not even an ' I think this might be the case' etc. is accoumpanied by some of these posts and then people say thank you to the posters for keeping them informed and explaining things to them, when infact alot of it is complete tosh.
As I said before I value all our customers and I don't mind that people have a view but what I would ask is that people make it clear if things are just an opinion or a view or maybe even ask someone, who might have more knowledge of the subject, if they feel it is true and pose their post as a question not as fact.
But having said all that I do think it is valuable to hear what outsiders to the industry think.
Many thanks
You are right but this forum is here and people, a few not all, are giving incorrect information out and even when they are corrected, by people that actually work for the airline, they continue.
I just wanted to explain things the way they really are because I am sure that alot of people that come on this thread actually might appreciate the facts not something made up and written as if it is fact. Not even an ' I think this might be the case' etc. is accoumpanied by some of these posts and then people say thank you to the posters for keeping them informed and explaining things to them, when infact alot of it is complete tosh.
As I said before I value all our customers and I don't mind that people have a view but what I would ask is that people make it clear if things are just an opinion or a view or maybe even ask someone, who might have more knowledge of the subject, if they feel it is true and pose their post as a question not as fact.
But having said all that I do think it is valuable to hear what outsiders to the industry think.
Many thanks
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I appreciate that betty girl and others are only trying to set the record straight, but you are in fact encouraging those who believe that with a ticket comes entitlement.
I might suggest that as the strike is newsworthy it may be of interest for some individuals to discuss ongoing events.
As a stockholder and an individual who consults for two airlines in the States my curiosity is natural and it takes nothing to keep a window open from time to time to track progress.
This IA has the potential to have rather far reaching consequences and until such time as the Forum Moderators decide to eliminate passenger commentary I will continue participating.
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Diplome,
If it makes you feel any better I usually find your posts very informative and interesting and I value your contribution.
Believe it or not I don't usually post on this particular thread. I did a month or so back when someone quoted what I had said, on another thread, out of context and more recently when I have seen incorreect information being said as if it were fact.
Most of the time I just have a look from time to time to see what people like you think.
If it makes you feel any better I usually find your posts very informative and interesting and I value your contribution.
Believe it or not I don't usually post on this particular thread. I did a month or so back when someone quoted what I had said, on another thread, out of context and more recently when I have seen incorreect information being said as if it were fact.
Most of the time I just have a look from time to time to see what people like you think.
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First of all I will address the issue of the Melbourne service. This service was removed because of low loads when it was a part of a shuttle from Sydney or because of the bad utilisation of the aircraft, as mentioned by Wiggy, when it was a terminating flight direct from Singapore. Cabin crew costs pale into insugnificance compared to the costs of having an aircraft sit on the ground or fly with low loads. At certain times of the year the loads were ok but BA being a schedualled carrier has to fly and operate a year long schedual and unless a flight is full it cannot make a profit it has nothing to do with the crew costs.
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Originally Posted by One Outsider
I appreciate that betty girl and others are only trying to set the record straight, but you are in fact encouraging those who believe that with a ticket comes entitlement.
When our relationship with our employer starts to seriously disrupt those that have bought a ticket to fly with us, then I'm afraid it does become their business and they have every right to ask questions.
ever enthusiastic, gap year Tiggers bouncing around the cabin!
I am rather regretting that comment as in the cold light of day, I've realised what that makes me, the long termer!
And I didn't look to dissimilar from that this morning....
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Nice one Jetset Lady. I worked at Gatwick for the best part of 40 years and I can tell you after most night shifts I looked like that too. Good to see you still have a great sense of humour.
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Desk jocky i think you are splitting hairs. I will clarify that for you. Unless it is full most of the time, or the airline is able to charge very high fairs because of lack of competition etc etc etc.
I think my post was detailed enough but there I have added that in for you.
Plus I completely forgot to mention the much higher fuel costs at the moment that affect many flights that were once profitable but now no longer are.
I think my post was detailed enough but there I have added that in for you.
Plus I completely forgot to mention the much higher fuel costs at the moment that affect many flights that were once profitable but now no longer are.
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Originally Posted by ExecClubPax
I worked at Gatwick for the best part of 40 years and I can tell you after most night shifts I looked like that too.
(Sorry. No more thread drifts, I promise!)
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One Outsider said:
I appreciate that betty girl and others are only trying to set the record straight, but you are in fact encouraging those who believe that with a ticket comes entitlement
I appreciate that betty girl and others are only trying to set the record straight, but you are in fact encouraging those who believe that with a ticket comes entitlement
So, to use an extreme example, a customer pays several thousands of £s for a long haul flight, LHR to wherever. No entitlement?
With a ticket does come entitlement as defined by the Ts & Cs (a favourite Bassa theme)