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BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II

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BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II

Old 29th Aug 2010, 18:04
  #1641 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Optimistic was reproducing a BASSA communication that was put out on the day DH was sacked. It may have even been written by DH himself.

What is clear though is the DH did not learn from his predecessor's errors. They were both sacked whilst BASSA was in dispute with BA.

Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 29th Aug 2010 at 21:00.
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Old 29th Aug 2010, 19:25
  #1642 (permalink)  
 
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sigh

It is a direct copy off the web: try google search. Found it rather inspiring myself. Rorkes Drift came to mind, or the Light Brigade.
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Old 29th Aug 2010, 21:56
  #1643 (permalink)  
 
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Here is the link to the original "tribute" to Duncan:

http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/Duncan_Holley_06_04_10.doc
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Old 29th Aug 2010, 22:09
  #1644 (permalink)  
RTR
 
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All reps and all unionists stand together and let no man put asunder. They lie and cheat for each other, always have and always will.

This example supports that - but there are thousands he and BASSA have badly let down.
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Old 29th Aug 2010, 22:41
  #1645 (permalink)  
 
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See where you're coming from RTR, but don't tar 'em all etc. Take f'rinstance Eddy on the other thread who tried at the beginning to write reasonably from a union point of view. But because of his very reasonableness has been vilified by BASSAfolk, semi 'outed' and for whatever reason has decided to transfer to LGW. Litebulbs on this thread, too, has always been reasonable, tho' often tough. Good on 'em - and good luck in your move, Eddy, if you read this.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 04:37
  #1646 (permalink)  
 
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There has been comment regarding the removal of rebate travel facilities from the BA cabin crew members who went on strike, and further comment suggesting that it might be restored only to allow them to commute to work.

Can anyone confirm the present situation, or is it all dependant on a settlement still to be reached ?

Thanks.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 05:48
  #1647 (permalink)  
 
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My guess is that you get it immediately. _By immediately I mean when the Union accepts the "Final Offer"._ My guess is that all non-Union members are then given the same offer and if they want the staff travel they accept the offer made personally and individually to them._ But until the Union accepts the "Final Offer" then nothing happens - just a log-jam - all dead wood and no movement._ Perhaps someone who really knows will correct this statement.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 07:52
  #1648 (permalink)  
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jimtherev

You are right of course. It is not fair that some people get mixed up in the sorry excuse for unionism by BASSA. Eddy is indeed a very good example of one who has fair and sensible views and I applaud him. His post on CC against MissM who carries the banner for BASSA and cannot and will not accept anything that is a sound and reasonable opposite to her own view, even an unarguable one, is a classic example of my point. She doesn't just refute opposing arguments she just ignores them and just goes on and on spouting HER view - take it or leave it. THAT, is the type I am referring to.

The latest garbage by Duncan Holley is also an example of a man who cannot and will not listen to other people's views. He is always right.

I really hope that BA are compiling a dossier of all the reps of BASSA who work for them and who have crossed the line. They should then act as positively as they have with others to stop the the smell that is BASSA.

One good point from all of this sadness is that BASSA have learned in no uncertain terms that it is BA who run the airline, NOT BASSA! Unite had better recognize that too. As for 'Lenny McCluskey' I would give him low chance of election now that BASSA want to hold his hand.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 08:35
  #1649 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RTR View Post
All reps and all unionists stand together and let no man put asunder. They lie and cheat for each other, always have and always will.

This example supports that - but there are thousands he and BASSA have badly let down.
I don't think you have either the knowledge or experience to back up that statement. Why does it make you any different from the BASSA people who make ridiculous statements? It doesn't.
Luckily for many TU members they are represented by good, honest, hard working reps who gain the best possible deals for the members (under very hard circumstances these days). You only have to look within BA to see that many agreements have been made without the fuss that this dispute has. It's too convenient for people to have opinions like yours. It saves constructing a reasoned argument I suppose.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 10:36
  #1650 (permalink)  
 
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RTR and call100.

Different situations, = different behaviours by reps.
I've worked in a number of different sectors in different countries. Generally, when I have encountered "lay" reps., or employees who act as representatives of their members, they have done so to the best of their abilities.
However, sometimes their behaviour is not for their members, it can be for other reasons. In the 70s and 80s in the UK, rather too many reps operated for party political reasons. Scargill is the most famous, but he was a paid TU official, not a rep. However, to act as a lay rep in the NUM you had to follow the Scargill line.
My worst experience was of a small group of reps in the Aviation sector. As the individuals concerned had only ever worked in Aviation, and had no experience of work outside Aviation, all they knew about work was from Aviation. They observed the behaviours of others in Aviation, and decided that being a rep was all about maximising their own personal income and power base. The other reps in the Company saw what was going on and did NOT support this small group of reps.
Having gained support in the Company concerned for the need to take action, the Employee Relations Manager, and the managers of these non-reps, removed them one by one from their "rep" positions. Two left the company, one became a very valued contributor to the company.
It can be done, it just takes time and care.

If the Company has real problems, whole Union branches can be transformed by focussed action by the relevant management.. I've seen it done. However, to achieve this requires a book of instructions, way beyond a post on this thread.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 13:42
  #1651 (permalink)  
 
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So is strong effective representation a bad thing? Obviously, there are going to be some management influenced posts on both of the threads, which is to be expected, but generalised union bashing for the sake of it, serves no purpose. And to suggest that you need to change reps until you get a team that a business wants, is just as bad as having a so called militant branch.

It is all about balance.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 14:57
  #1652 (permalink)  
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I don't think you have either the knowledge or experience to back up that statement. Why does it make you any different from the BASSA people who make ridiculous statements?
I am not in the habit of responding to anyone who assumes that I am talking without experience or knowledge. But what the hell! Firstly, you have chosen to misunderstand what I said. I have specifically pointed AT BASSA - with a general statement on unions that fits the current situation. In BASSA it has been proven time after time that the reps have been self serving indolent individuals and attacked by members with constant references to CSD's/reps who take the best routes and, therefore, no regard for the members. That is fact. Where is the unionism in fighting for the members per se?

In the 70s and 80s in the UK, rather too many reps operated for party political reasons. Scargill is the most famous, but he was a paid TU official, not a rep.
And yet, although it has taken way too long he was, just this week, expelled from the NUM. He was also an indolent self serving person who used the workforce for his own ends. He led them to destruction in effect. Thousands out of work and the mines closed. BASSA would have done that given the opportunity. Now tell me that is not what was in their minds. They wanted to control BA and almost did until WW came along.

My real point is that in spite of BASSA being led by some reps with only themselves grouping to make BA do as they were told, some saw the sense in not following the 'Scargill' line. Now please don't forget the other union leaders like Woodley and Simpson who between them destroyed people's jobs were not party to that. Would that not be the reason why BASSA decided to affiliate themselves with Unite. Now we have Holley and others trying to curry favour with McCluskey - why? The answer is in this paragraph.

Maybe, however, McCluskey if he wins will decide to live in 2010 and leave the 70's behind. As it happens there is more to be gained now if they can see that the bad old days are over and behave as a proper union in sole service of its members and not themselves. But......I wouldn't hold your breath.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 16:55
  #1653 (permalink)  
 
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RTR
What you actually said was
All reps and all unionists stand together and let no man put asunder. They lie and cheat for each other, always have and always will.
No mention of BASSA.
Scargill has not been expelled from the NUM his voting rights have been taken away as he is only an honorary president.The NUM say that the rules preclude him and others from voting.....So you were wrong to say he had been expelled.

Ancient Observer....The scenario you describe would be from the worse type of management and is more abhorrent than the problem you say it overcomes.
I have always worked with companies and members to get the best for both sides. I would, of course, have had no truck with anyone from the company coming along thinking they could dictate how and why I or any other representatives should think and act. They have managers they can play with like that.
I think this thread indicates that the trouble lies in people who are polarised and unable (from both camps) to understand what exactly the middle ground is. As litebulbs says 'Its all about balance'

I've said before that the general insults towards Union reps and members is short sighted and ignorant. Not understanding that the BASSA case is one section v one employer and stretching opinions of it across the whole TU spectrum is not only non constructive but a waste of time and pointless.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 17:43
  #1654 (permalink)  
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Ah call100

It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.

I wasn't wrong to say that Scargill had been expelled. But you can certainly chastise the Mail if you wish.
Miners' hero Arthur Scargill expelled from union because he doesn't qualify | Mail Online

In my experience I stand by the statement about union reps (and shop stewards) standing together. They always have although occasionally some like Simpson put their foot in and invite the Socialist Working Party into a private meeting. That is not unionism. That was crass stupidity and embarrassed ACAS and BA, especially when he twittered all through the meeting!! Anyway, as you are obviously a staunch union man there is no further argument - it will be too one sided for me I'm afraid.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 17:54
  #1655 (permalink)  
 
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@call100

I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.

I recall that early on in this dispute ( and this is from memory) he said something like " I've been involved in an lot of strikes.............."

Now this may just have been blow-hard nonsense of the type also used by politicians when talking to their faithful, but I got the feeling that he does see strike action as the real power of unions instead of negotiation and the desired outcome being a win for the workers with a bloody nose for the "bosses" rather than a negotiated settlement.

Can you tell me perhaps if there has been any discussion in TU circles why McC disappeared so quickly from the BA/BASSA fray ?

My cynical view is that when he saw it was heading towards a rout he pulled strings and , as a candidate for the top job, was allowed to retire gracefully without having this rotting albatross hanging round his neck. Am I warm ?
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 18:03
  #1656 (permalink)  
 
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[This is probably more destined for the CC thread, but I am precluded from posting there because of my status] ... but ...

this discussion only appears to continue when someone from the BASSA/Unite side posts a comment elsewhere that results in it being copied in here and a set of comments following.

These people are never going to enter proper debate, as their
agenda is set.

If we were all to ignore the DH/LM/MissM's of this world, this whole dispute would fade into the abyss/hyperspace where it belongs.

By responding, we just feed the trolls and keep up their delusions that the dispute actually continues - it doesn't - BASSA have been destroyed (100%) and they are irrelevant.

So, what I am saying is, by commenting here, is that we give BASSA fuel to continue their campaign, so by stopping rising to the boring same old rhetoric from MissM etc, this thread would soon dry up due lack of interest.

STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 18:24
  #1657 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RTR View Post
Ah call100

It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.
Can you show me where call100 did not allow opinion?

What evidence do you have on all reps and unionists being liars and cheats?
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 18:26
  #1658 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AlpineSkier View Post
I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.
Well I might get some agreement here. That man is definitely not the future of Unite. I just hope all that can vote in this particular election, do.
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 18:47
  #1659 (permalink)  
 
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I broadly concur with TopBunk ... there is nothing new to be said until after the meeting/rally/whatever on the 6th.

What is, sadly, happening IMO is that frustration with the ongoing uncertainty is getting people to let of some blasts of ill-directed steam. That doesn't help anyone, and simply leads to more bickering.

What say you? Shall we all sit back quietly for a week, until there's something new and meaningful [or otherwise] to discuss?
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Old 30th Aug 2010, 19:55
  #1660 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RTR View Post
Ah call100

It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.

I wasn't wrong to say that Scargill had been expelled. But you can certainly chastise the Mail if you wish.
Miners' hero Arthur Scargill expelled from union because he doesn't qualify | Mail Online

In my experience I stand by the statement about union reps (and shop stewards) standing together. They always have although occasionally some like Simpson put their foot in and invite the Socialist Working Party into a private meeting. That is not unionism. That was crass stupidity and embarrassed ACAS and BA, especially when he twittered all through the meeting!! Anyway, as you are obviously a staunch union man there is no further argument - it will be too one sided for me I'm afraid.
Gains knowledge from Daily mail! Note for future reference..Not your fault then...
You are wrong about it being one sided (not like you to be wrong!). For the record I am not in the same camp as Scargill.
The Socialist workers party were not invited to the meeting they gate crashed. (Ooops wrong again)...
I have never hidden any Union credentials and made it clear where I'm coming from.(Oh dear! Wrong again)
I have not supported the BASSA dispute and have on several occasions criticised their methods. (wrong of you again!!). So, no, we do not always agree and therefore do not always stand together regardless of the issue.
If I was you I'd stop digging, but I doubt that will happen.

AlpineSkier @call100

I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.

I recall that early on in this dispute ( and this is from memory) he said something like " I've been involved in an lot of strikes.............."

Now this may just have been blow-hard nonsense of the type also used by politicians when talking to their faithful, but I got the feeling that he does see strike action as the real power of unions instead of negotiation and the desired outcome being a win for the workers with a bloody nose for the "bosses" rather than a negotiated settlement.

Can you tell me perhaps if there has been any discussion in TU circles why McC disappeared so quickly from the BA/BASSA fray ?

My cynical view is that when he saw it was heading towards a rout he pulled strings and , as a candidate for the top job, was allowed to retire gracefully without having this rotting albatross hanging round his neck. Am I warm ?
I doubt that McCluskey will win the leadership. but if he should it will not be with my vote. From a personal point of view, it has never bothered me who led the Union. They had little influence or effect on anything in my workplace in 30 years. All the hard work was done by reps and local FTO's.
As has you say, at that level everything is Political. It has little to do with day to day work negotiations any more than who wins the General Election. I have never used a Political view to interfere with a negotiation as I have never just voted for one party out of blind loyalty.
I don't think the majority of Union members (Any Union) could name the people at the top and I'm sure they are not interested.
So even when commenting about McCluskey it is not fair to generalise. I realise that different strokes for different folks is apt in situations like this and that there are many different opinions. We will never all agree, what a dull world it would be if we did??!
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