BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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Imposition of crewing levels and the suspension of some Amicus and Bassa reps for fighting in a car park on BA property led to the two sides uniting and probably pressure from the parent union Unite.
I was an Amicus member of 21 years since it started as Cabin crew 89 back in 1989. Bassa longhaul reps broke away, on mass, to start up Cabin crew 89 because they could no longer work with the more militant shorthaul reps. With the support of BALPA the pilot's union CC89 came about based at BALPA's offices. The few remaining Bassa longhaul reps continued as BASSA worldwide and have over the years had a feud with the reps that were previously their collegues. Later on CC89 became part of Amicus and changed it's name to Amicus. Now Amicus and the TGWU have joined to become Unite and this has caused problems for the more moderate Amicus reps.
I am so saddened that out of this mess I seem to have lost the representation of the Amicus reps and I therefore resigned from Unite as a result.
I was an Amicus member of 21 years since it started as Cabin crew 89 back in 1989. Bassa longhaul reps broke away, on mass, to start up Cabin crew 89 because they could no longer work with the more militant shorthaul reps. With the support of BALPA the pilot's union CC89 came about based at BALPA's offices. The few remaining Bassa longhaul reps continued as BASSA worldwide and have over the years had a feud with the reps that were previously their collegues. Later on CC89 became part of Amicus and changed it's name to Amicus. Now Amicus and the TGWU have joined to become Unite and this has caused problems for the more moderate Amicus reps.
I am so saddened that out of this mess I seem to have lost the representation of the Amicus reps and I therefore resigned from Unite as a result.
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As the BASSA High Command is so fond of military analogies, her are some quotes for them to mull over:
There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry.
George Armstrong Custer
We shall meet again before long to march to new triumphs.
Giuseppe Garibaldi
The only thing that matters is that we stand firm.
Heinrich Himmler
If our most highly qualified General Staff officers had been told to work out the most nonsensical high level organization for war which they could think of, they could not have produced anything more stupid that that which we have at present.
Claus von Stauffenberg
But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success.
Isoroku Yamamoto
There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry.
George Armstrong Custer
We shall meet again before long to march to new triumphs.
Giuseppe Garibaldi
The only thing that matters is that we stand firm.
Heinrich Himmler
If our most highly qualified General Staff officers had been told to work out the most nonsensical high level organization for war which they could think of, they could not have produced anything more stupid that that which we have at present.
Claus von Stauffenberg
But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success.
Isoroku Yamamoto
This man ? Surely not.
Today Duncan Holley BASSA Branch Secretary was sacked from British Airways as a Eurofleet CSD.
This has happened solely because of his other role as the branch secretary of our union and stemmed from a “new” interpretation by cabin crew management surrounding the agreed rights of recognized union officers to be released to undertake union duties over a handful of days in late December, last year.
Duncan is a man that has encompassed the core values of our union for longer than most people can remember!
Something you learn very early as a union rep is that it’s easy to have opinions. It’s less easy to stand up for them. It’s easy to recount what you would tell management to do and where to ‘shove it’ in a bar or restaurant down route. It’s less than easy in real life. Often those that shout the loudest are furthest from the fight.
Duncan Holley was an exception to that rule. He has always had the strongest opinions and principles possible, but at the same time, he was what you would have expected him to be - utterly fearless and unafraid to represent your views to our management, and if they were not prepared to listen, then he would make sure they did.
There are no shades of grey with Duncan. He is “black and white”. If it’s right, it’s right and if it’s wrong, then it’s wrong and he never hesitates to tell anybody who needs to know that.
He inherited those principles from his predecessor Mike Coleman- who was also sacked by British Airways around the time of the 1997 dispute. He inherited a strong union but under his leadership there is no doubt, we are even stronger.
His integrity and strength, but above all courage is second to none. Duncan is a pillar of this union, and without leaders like him, this union would not function.
Despite the huge shadow this has cast over both him and the toll on his family for nearly 6 months, he has never once put his interest above the interest of our members or asked for any extra consideration. If a deal could be found that protected you our members he was content with that, regardless of his own fate. He has always put the interests of something he believes in with all his heart first - he believes that cabin crew are good people, who deserve the best. He does his utmost to try and get that for you - Ultimately it has cost him his job, but being the man he is, he would have it no other way.
People often ask “what has the union ever done for me?”
Take a look at Duncan Holley and you will see exactly what the union and its reps are doing for you! Take a moment and watch the “something inside so strong” video. Reflect on the image of Duncan on a spring morning less than two years ago and see what he has now given for this union. Nobody could have given or sacrificed more, without people like Duncan, we simply would not have a union.
This has happened solely because of his other role as the branch secretary of our union and stemmed from a “new” interpretation by cabin crew management surrounding the agreed rights of recognized union officers to be released to undertake union duties over a handful of days in late December, last year.
Duncan is a man that has encompassed the core values of our union for longer than most people can remember!
Something you learn very early as a union rep is that it’s easy to have opinions. It’s less easy to stand up for them. It’s easy to recount what you would tell management to do and where to ‘shove it’ in a bar or restaurant down route. It’s less than easy in real life. Often those that shout the loudest are furthest from the fight.
Duncan Holley was an exception to that rule. He has always had the strongest opinions and principles possible, but at the same time, he was what you would have expected him to be - utterly fearless and unafraid to represent your views to our management, and if they were not prepared to listen, then he would make sure they did.
There are no shades of grey with Duncan. He is “black and white”. If it’s right, it’s right and if it’s wrong, then it’s wrong and he never hesitates to tell anybody who needs to know that.
He inherited those principles from his predecessor Mike Coleman- who was also sacked by British Airways around the time of the 1997 dispute. He inherited a strong union but under his leadership there is no doubt, we are even stronger.
His integrity and strength, but above all courage is second to none. Duncan is a pillar of this union, and without leaders like him, this union would not function.
Despite the huge shadow this has cast over both him and the toll on his family for nearly 6 months, he has never once put his interest above the interest of our members or asked for any extra consideration. If a deal could be found that protected you our members he was content with that, regardless of his own fate. He has always put the interests of something he believes in with all his heart first - he believes that cabin crew are good people, who deserve the best. He does his utmost to try and get that for you - Ultimately it has cost him his job, but being the man he is, he would have it no other way.
People often ask “what has the union ever done for me?”
Take a look at Duncan Holley and you will see exactly what the union and its reps are doing for you! Take a moment and watch the “something inside so strong” video. Reflect on the image of Duncan on a spring morning less than two years ago and see what he has now given for this union. Nobody could have given or sacrificed more, without people like Duncan, we simply would not have a union.
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I am moved by that statement. Indeed, I regard myself a lesser person for having failed to aspire to Mr Holley's high standards of integrity and industry.
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MPN11
I regard myself a lesser person for having failed to aspire to Mr Holley's high standards of integrity and industry.
I regard myself a lesser person for having failed to aspire to Mr Holley's high standards of integrity and industry.
Fill Brancis
Our “friend” Del C Diner, aka xxxxx xxxxx has now taken the thread that he started with the responses to BA and one crew member has since been suspended, this ex BASSA rep really is the lowest of the low. I have contacted him to let him know how I feel and predictably he took my message straight to Tony McCarthy. He sort of forgot that BA have no control over me any more.
Not only did he strike break for personal promotion but he then came on this Forum and started a taunting thread. He then took some replies to BA and caused someone to be suspended. In all my flying career his actions are the nastiest and lowest I have ever encountered.
Please no one respond to this message other than a bump because as sure as eggs are eggs xxxx xxxx will report you and cost you your job. Just ensure his name is “known”.
Finally can I say Hi to Tony McCarthy as I know he will be reading this message very shortly. How’s the bullying going Tony? How’s the union busting going? By the way don’t get too cosy with xxxx xxxx he’s a bit of a snake. Regards to Willie – Love Duncan
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Mr Optimistic was reproducing a BASSA communication that was put out on the day DH was sacked. It may have even been written by DH himself.
What is clear though is the DH did not learn from his predecessor's errors. They were both sacked whilst BASSA was in dispute with BA.
What is clear though is the DH did not learn from his predecessor's errors. They were both sacked whilst BASSA was in dispute with BA.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 29th Aug 2010 at 21:00.
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Here is the link to the original "tribute" to Duncan:
http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/Duncan_Holley_06_04_10.doc
http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/Duncan_Holley_06_04_10.doc
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All reps and all unionists stand together and let no man put asunder. They lie and cheat for each other, always have and always will.
This example supports that - but there are thousands he and BASSA have badly let down.
This example supports that - but there are thousands he and BASSA have badly let down.
See where you're coming from RTR, but don't tar 'em all etc. Take f'rinstance Eddy on the other thread who tried at the beginning to write reasonably from a union point of view. But because of his very reasonableness has been vilified by BASSAfolk, semi 'outed' and for whatever reason has decided to transfer to LGW. Litebulbs on this thread, too, has always been reasonable, tho' often tough. Good on 'em - and good luck in your move, Eddy, if you read this.
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There has been comment regarding the removal of rebate travel facilities from the BA cabin crew members who went on strike, and further comment suggesting that it might be restored only to allow them to commute to work.
Can anyone confirm the present situation, or is it all dependant on a settlement still to be reached ?
Thanks.
Can anyone confirm the present situation, or is it all dependant on a settlement still to be reached ?
Thanks.
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My guess is that you get it immediately. _By immediately I mean when the Union accepts the "Final Offer"._ My guess is that all non-Union members are then given the same offer and if they want the staff travel they accept the offer made personally and individually to them._ But until the Union accepts the "Final Offer" then nothing happens - just a log-jam - all dead wood and no movement._ Perhaps someone who really knows will correct this statement.
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jimtherev
You are right of course. It is not fair that some people get mixed up in the sorry excuse for unionism by BASSA. Eddy is indeed a very good example of one who has fair and sensible views and I applaud him. His post on CC against MissM who carries the banner for BASSA and cannot and will not accept anything that is a sound and reasonable opposite to her own view, even an unarguable one, is a classic example of my point. She doesn't just refute opposing arguments she just ignores them and just goes on and on spouting HER view - take it or leave it. THAT, is the type I am referring to.
The latest garbage by Duncan Holley is also an example of a man who cannot and will not listen to other people's views. He is always right.
I really hope that BA are compiling a dossier of all the reps of BASSA who work for them and who have crossed the line. They should then act as positively as they have with others to stop the the smell that is BASSA.
One good point from all of this sadness is that BASSA have learned in no uncertain terms that it is BA who run the airline, NOT BASSA! Unite had better recognize that too. As for 'Lenny McCluskey' I would give him low chance of election now that BASSA want to hold his hand.
You are right of course. It is not fair that some people get mixed up in the sorry excuse for unionism by BASSA. Eddy is indeed a very good example of one who has fair and sensible views and I applaud him. His post on CC against MissM who carries the banner for BASSA and cannot and will not accept anything that is a sound and reasonable opposite to her own view, even an unarguable one, is a classic example of my point. She doesn't just refute opposing arguments she just ignores them and just goes on and on spouting HER view - take it or leave it. THAT, is the type I am referring to.
The latest garbage by Duncan Holley is also an example of a man who cannot and will not listen to other people's views. He is always right.
I really hope that BA are compiling a dossier of all the reps of BASSA who work for them and who have crossed the line. They should then act as positively as they have with others to stop the the smell that is BASSA.
One good point from all of this sadness is that BASSA have learned in no uncertain terms that it is BA who run the airline, NOT BASSA! Unite had better recognize that too. As for 'Lenny McCluskey' I would give him low chance of election now that BASSA want to hold his hand.
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Luckily for many TU members they are represented by good, honest, hard working reps who gain the best possible deals for the members (under very hard circumstances these days). You only have to look within BA to see that many agreements have been made without the fuss that this dispute has. It's too convenient for people to have opinions like yours. It saves constructing a reasoned argument I suppose.
RTR and call100.
Different situations, = different behaviours by reps.
I've worked in a number of different sectors in different countries. Generally, when I have encountered "lay" reps., or employees who act as representatives of their members, they have done so to the best of their abilities.
However, sometimes their behaviour is not for their members, it can be for other reasons. In the 70s and 80s in the UK, rather too many reps operated for party political reasons. Scargill is the most famous, but he was a paid TU official, not a rep. However, to act as a lay rep in the NUM you had to follow the Scargill line.
My worst experience was of a small group of reps in the Aviation sector. As the individuals concerned had only ever worked in Aviation, and had no experience of work outside Aviation, all they knew about work was from Aviation. They observed the behaviours of others in Aviation, and decided that being a rep was all about maximising their own personal income and power base. The other reps in the Company saw what was going on and did NOT support this small group of reps.
Having gained support in the Company concerned for the need to take action, the Employee Relations Manager, and the managers of these non-reps, removed them one by one from their "rep" positions. Two left the company, one became a very valued contributor to the company.
It can be done, it just takes time and care.
If the Company has real problems, whole Union branches can be transformed by focussed action by the relevant management.. I've seen it done. However, to achieve this requires a book of instructions, way beyond a post on this thread.
Different situations, = different behaviours by reps.
I've worked in a number of different sectors in different countries. Generally, when I have encountered "lay" reps., or employees who act as representatives of their members, they have done so to the best of their abilities.
However, sometimes their behaviour is not for their members, it can be for other reasons. In the 70s and 80s in the UK, rather too many reps operated for party political reasons. Scargill is the most famous, but he was a paid TU official, not a rep. However, to act as a lay rep in the NUM you had to follow the Scargill line.
My worst experience was of a small group of reps in the Aviation sector. As the individuals concerned had only ever worked in Aviation, and had no experience of work outside Aviation, all they knew about work was from Aviation. They observed the behaviours of others in Aviation, and decided that being a rep was all about maximising their own personal income and power base. The other reps in the Company saw what was going on and did NOT support this small group of reps.
Having gained support in the Company concerned for the need to take action, the Employee Relations Manager, and the managers of these non-reps, removed them one by one from their "rep" positions. Two left the company, one became a very valued contributor to the company.
It can be done, it just takes time and care.
If the Company has real problems, whole Union branches can be transformed by focussed action by the relevant management.. I've seen it done. However, to achieve this requires a book of instructions, way beyond a post on this thread.
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So is strong effective representation a bad thing? Obviously, there are going to be some management influenced posts on both of the threads, which is to be expected, but generalised union bashing for the sake of it, serves no purpose. And to suggest that you need to change reps until you get a team that a business wants, is just as bad as having a so called militant branch.
It is all about balance.
It is all about balance.
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I don't think you have either the knowledge or experience to back up that statement. Why does it make you any different from the BASSA people who make ridiculous statements?
In the 70s and 80s in the UK, rather too many reps operated for party political reasons. Scargill is the most famous, but he was a paid TU official, not a rep.
My real point is that in spite of BASSA being led by some reps with only themselves grouping to make BA do as they were told, some saw the sense in not following the 'Scargill' line. Now please don't forget the other union leaders like Woodley and Simpson who between them destroyed people's jobs were not party to that. Would that not be the reason why BASSA decided to affiliate themselves with Unite. Now we have Holley and others trying to curry favour with McCluskey - why? The answer is in this paragraph.
Maybe, however, McCluskey if he wins will decide to live in 2010 and leave the 70's behind. As it happens there is more to be gained now if they can see that the bad old days are over and behave as a proper union in sole service of its members and not themselves. But......I wouldn't hold your breath.
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RTR
What you actually said was
No mention of BASSA.
Scargill has not been expelled from the NUM his voting rights have been taken away as he is only an honorary president.The NUM say that the rules preclude him and others from voting.....So you were wrong to say he had been expelled.
Ancient Observer....The scenario you describe would be from the worse type of management and is more abhorrent than the problem you say it overcomes.
I have always worked with companies and members to get the best for both sides. I would, of course, have had no truck with anyone from the company coming along thinking they could dictate how and why I or any other representatives should think and act. They have managers they can play with like that.
I think this thread indicates that the trouble lies in people who are polarised and unable (from both camps) to understand what exactly the middle ground is. As litebulbs says 'Its all about balance'
I've said before that the general insults towards Union reps and members is short sighted and ignorant. Not understanding that the BASSA case is one section v one employer and stretching opinions of it across the whole TU spectrum is not only non constructive but a waste of time and pointless.
What you actually said was
All reps and all unionists stand together and let no man put asunder. They lie and cheat for each other, always have and always will.
Scargill has not been expelled from the NUM his voting rights have been taken away as he is only an honorary president.The NUM say that the rules preclude him and others from voting.....So you were wrong to say he had been expelled.
Ancient Observer....The scenario you describe would be from the worse type of management and is more abhorrent than the problem you say it overcomes.
I have always worked with companies and members to get the best for both sides. I would, of course, have had no truck with anyone from the company coming along thinking they could dictate how and why I or any other representatives should think and act. They have managers they can play with like that.
I think this thread indicates that the trouble lies in people who are polarised and unable (from both camps) to understand what exactly the middle ground is. As litebulbs says 'Its all about balance'
I've said before that the general insults towards Union reps and members is short sighted and ignorant. Not understanding that the BASSA case is one section v one employer and stretching opinions of it across the whole TU spectrum is not only non constructive but a waste of time and pointless.
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Ah call100
It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.
I wasn't wrong to say that Scargill had been expelled. But you can certainly chastise the Mail if you wish.
Miners' hero Arthur Scargill expelled from union because he doesn't qualify | Mail Online
In my experience I stand by the statement about union reps (and shop stewards) standing together. They always have although occasionally some like Simpson put their foot in and invite the Socialist Working Party into a private meeting. That is not unionism. That was crass stupidity and embarrassed ACAS and BA, especially when he twittered all through the meeting!! Anyway, as you are obviously a staunch union man there is no further argument - it will be too one sided for me I'm afraid.
It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.
I wasn't wrong to say that Scargill had been expelled. But you can certainly chastise the Mail if you wish.
Miners' hero Arthur Scargill expelled from union because he doesn't qualify | Mail Online
In my experience I stand by the statement about union reps (and shop stewards) standing together. They always have although occasionally some like Simpson put their foot in and invite the Socialist Working Party into a private meeting. That is not unionism. That was crass stupidity and embarrassed ACAS and BA, especially when he twittered all through the meeting!! Anyway, as you are obviously a staunch union man there is no further argument - it will be too one sided for me I'm afraid.
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@call100
I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.
I recall that early on in this dispute ( and this is from memory) he said something like " I've been involved in an lot of strikes.............."
Now this may just have been blow-hard nonsense of the type also used by politicians when talking to their faithful, but I got the feeling that he does see strike action as the real power of unions instead of negotiation and the desired outcome being a win for the workers with a bloody nose for the "bosses" rather than a negotiated settlement.
Can you tell me perhaps if there has been any discussion in TU circles why McC disappeared so quickly from the BA/BASSA fray ?
My cynical view is that when he saw it was heading towards a rout he pulled strings and , as a candidate for the top job, was allowed to retire gracefully without having this rotting albatross hanging round his neck. Am I warm ?
I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.
I recall that early on in this dispute ( and this is from memory) he said something like " I've been involved in an lot of strikes.............."
Now this may just have been blow-hard nonsense of the type also used by politicians when talking to their faithful, but I got the feeling that he does see strike action as the real power of unions instead of negotiation and the desired outcome being a win for the workers with a bloody nose for the "bosses" rather than a negotiated settlement.
Can you tell me perhaps if there has been any discussion in TU circles why McC disappeared so quickly from the BA/BASSA fray ?
My cynical view is that when he saw it was heading towards a rout he pulled strings and , as a candidate for the top job, was allowed to retire gracefully without having this rotting albatross hanging round his neck. Am I warm ?
