BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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Unite the union - Britain's biggest union
Can you find a reference to the BA issue on the default front page any more?
There are a couple of BA bits but you will have to look for them and one called BA Update dates back to March!
So as the world moves on and focus shifts to BAA staff, and many more things generally, some CC are still left with no ST and worse terms than when all this started. Crap eh..
Can you find a reference to the BA issue on the default front page any more?
There are a couple of BA bits but you will have to look for them and one called BA Update dates back to March!
So as the world moves on and focus shifts to BAA staff, and many more things generally, some CC are still left with no ST and worse terms than when all this started. Crap eh..
"1948 Agreement" and similar terms.
A number of posters on this thread and in the other place have referred to antique agreements, such as 1948.................
.
Outside the public sector - does any other employer have such antique "agreements"..............??
I do hope that their maintenance arrangements are more modern..............
.
Outside the public sector - does any other employer have such antique "agreements"..............??
I do hope that their maintenance arrangements are more modern..............
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Hmm, so in 1973 I started working for a nationalised industry, at that time we had 3 sets of T&Cs
one for the craftsmen
one for the office staff
one for the engineers and managers
Now they all had odd payments and rules
e.g. Craftsmen, if they were more than 15 minutes late having their lunch they got a payment.
Engineers if more than 5 miles from base for more than 5 hours could claim a lunch allowance.
Craftsmen if they worked overtime in an emergency and didn't get home until late could claim a spoiled meal allowance and a meal allowance
Engineers were expected to work up to one hour incidental overtime and received an annual payment.
Craftsmen were paid time & 1/2 or time & 1 for overtime
Engineers just got time off in lieu
And then we became a private company! (just like BA)
Within 2 years all the old agreements had been scrapped and a single agreement signed by all unions (including the forerunners of Unite)
All of the odd payments went out of the door, all the strange working practices went out of the door.
The only differences between the different groups were the payscales (though more senior managers ended up on personal contracts)
And there we are, apart from recently where expenses payable for overnight allowances were cut, no lunch allowances (we pay for lunch at own base so why get paid if somewhere else!)
Classes of travel were reduced for all staff
No free tea, coffee, biscuits or lunches at training courses or meetings!
WL
one for the craftsmen
one for the office staff
one for the engineers and managers
Now they all had odd payments and rules
e.g. Craftsmen, if they were more than 15 minutes late having their lunch they got a payment.
Engineers if more than 5 miles from base for more than 5 hours could claim a lunch allowance.
Craftsmen if they worked overtime in an emergency and didn't get home until late could claim a spoiled meal allowance and a meal allowance
Engineers were expected to work up to one hour incidental overtime and received an annual payment.
Craftsmen were paid time & 1/2 or time & 1 for overtime
Engineers just got time off in lieu
And then we became a private company! (just like BA)
Within 2 years all the old agreements had been scrapped and a single agreement signed by all unions (including the forerunners of Unite)
All of the odd payments went out of the door, all the strange working practices went out of the door.
The only differences between the different groups were the payscales (though more senior managers ended up on personal contracts)
And there we are, apart from recently where expenses payable for overnight allowances were cut, no lunch allowances (we pay for lunch at own base so why get paid if somewhere else!)
Classes of travel were reduced for all staff
No free tea, coffee, biscuits or lunches at training courses or meetings!
WL
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Papillon
I was responding to Ancient Observer to show that other nationalised industries had similar T&C issues to BA, but modernised (with agreement with unions) on privatisation.
I was responding to Ancient Observer to show that other nationalised industries had similar T&C issues to BA, but modernised (with agreement with unions) on privatisation.
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I know - I was only teasing you a touch.
BA have always been that way, even within the aviation sector. In my time there, arriving from another airline, nearly two decades after privatisation, I was truly astonished at the comfortable - ridiculously comfortable - work environment to be found there.
BA have always been that way, even within the aviation sector. In my time there, arriving from another airline, nearly two decades after privatisation, I was truly astonished at the comfortable - ridiculously comfortable - work environment to be found there.
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Referring to an earlier discussion about non-union members, according to the other thread 1,100 non-union members have accepted the latest offer from BA on an individual basis. I'm not sure whether this is the total number of acceptances received by BA, or the number of acceptances after BA validated that those who responded were not members of Unite when the offer was made.
Paxing All Over The World
Sbas
If you read the excellent posts by west lakes, I think you will see what has happened in the last 30 years. I was working in IT during the last recession (89/92) and guess what? Pay rates dropped suddenly and took more than five years to recover properly and some took ten years.
I am not unsympathetic to people who have to accept reduced pay and Ts&Cs, as I have had that (AND redundancy AND unfair dismissal) in my 30 years of working life. The point here is that the CC (and the BAA folks) do not seem to understand that, just because their line of work has had close to 50 years of expansion with only small setbacks, that it is still going to continue. They have a JOB and since we are in the worst financial crisis since 1929 - that is worth a heck of a lot.
There is no public support for any of this and they could all (BA + BAA) have negotiated their way to a new contract and STILL have had a job.
Tell me, if a company loses Ł1Billion due to 'IA' do you think that the company are then better able to afford to pay an increase in wages and benefits?
So as the world moves on and focus shifts to BAA staff, and many more things generally, some CC are still left with no ST and worse terms than when all this started. Crap eh.
I am not unsympathetic to people who have to accept reduced pay and Ts&Cs, as I have had that (AND redundancy AND unfair dismissal) in my 30 years of working life. The point here is that the CC (and the BAA folks) do not seem to understand that, just because their line of work has had close to 50 years of expansion with only small setbacks, that it is still going to continue. They have a JOB and since we are in the worst financial crisis since 1929 - that is worth a heck of a lot.
There is no public support for any of this and they could all (BA + BAA) have negotiated their way to a new contract and STILL have had a job.
Tell me, if a company loses Ł1Billion due to 'IA' do you think that the company are then better able to afford to pay an increase in wages and benefits?
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Referring to an earlier discussion about non-union members, according to the other thread 1,100 non-union members have accepted the latest offer from BA on an individual basis.
At the moment (playing devil's advocate and using data from post #665), I make that approximately 3,449 to 2,786 in favour of rejecting the proposal, with about 5,250 unknown opinions (one cannot assume abstentions, as one does not know their reasons for not voting/accepting.) In other words only about 54% have made their views known, hardly a huge majority - what does the mute minority (46%) think/want?
Others on here may not like my thinking (and that is their perrogative), but bearing in mind the 'milk' incident (which was disgraceful) and other anecdotes of strikers isolating non strikers, I do have to wonder about the common sense of allowing a dispute like this to fester on.
Everyday, the discontent (in all camps) grows a little more bitter and the task of pulling everyione together a little harder.
From a business case perspective, it is clear that BA senior management believes it has won the dispute, but anyone who has gone through a major change program will reflect that delivery of such benefits only truly happens when the workforce pulls together and makes it so.
In other words, to deliver the cost savings, you have to attract customers to use your product and this can be directly impacted by the performance experienced from the workforce, by the customers. If your service is highly inconsistent, in a service oriented business, this is very damaging to revenues.
At the moment, what I perceive is a change program where the technical part has been delivered, but there is a blind spot to the needs of a sizable number of the stakeholders.
Given the strength of the emotions expressed by BA employees on both sides of the camp, I do wonder how long (if ever) it will be until these people are truly able to pull together and take the company forward.
Of course, I am on the outside and would be the first to accept that my perception is not as clear as those who are involved, but I wonder how this new world will rebuild BA's reputation, which let's just accept is not at it's peak following the industrial action over the past eight to nine months.
Tell me, if a company loses Ł1Billion due to 'IA' do you think that the company are then better able to afford to pay an increase in wages and benefits?
The BA proposal terms after IA were worse than before, I believe that demonstrates the point Paxboy is making.
Last edited by Lotpax; 13th Aug 2010 at 06:32.
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Lotpax,
As a eurofleet Purser I find that it has made no difference to the passengers perspective. Crew I work with on both sides of the devide seem just as commited as ever to delivering good customer service.
It is very strange though because no one can talk about the dispute at work for fear of upsetting someone else. It's very hard to explain because I, as a non striker, feel unsettled if I am working with someone who has a baggage tag with XXXX on or is wearing a BASSA lanyard but it is not because anything is actually said, it is just because I know they think completely the oposite to me.
Often you go to say something and have to stop yourself because it would be a giveaway that you were a non striker. So it is more just an uncomfortable atmosphere between crew, than anything else. Everyone treading on eggshells because opinions are so polorized.
When you do fly and work with someone who you know has the same leaning as you it is a relief to be able to chat openly about it.
I think the service the passengers get is as good as it ever was and on Eurofleet I think in most cases it is good service.
I cannot speak for World Wide crew though as I don't know what it is like on their flights.
As a eurofleet Purser I find that it has made no difference to the passengers perspective. Crew I work with on both sides of the devide seem just as commited as ever to delivering good customer service.
It is very strange though because no one can talk about the dispute at work for fear of upsetting someone else. It's very hard to explain because I, as a non striker, feel unsettled if I am working with someone who has a baggage tag with XXXX on or is wearing a BASSA lanyard but it is not because anything is actually said, it is just because I know they think completely the oposite to me.
Often you go to say something and have to stop yourself because it would be a giveaway that you were a non striker. So it is more just an uncomfortable atmosphere between crew, than anything else. Everyone treading on eggshells because opinions are so polorized.
When you do fly and work with someone who you know has the same leaning as you it is a relief to be able to chat openly about it.
I think the service the passengers get is as good as it ever was and on Eurofleet I think in most cases it is good service.
I cannot speak for World Wide crew though as I don't know what it is like on their flights.
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There is a simple way to fix the IA impasse, and this applies to all unions, not just BASSA. Legislation is needed to demand that a majority of the paid-up union members vote in favour of IA, rather than a majority of those who chose to vote.
Ipso facto, the union involved would have to declare an audited membership roll. Two birds, one stone.
Ipso facto, the union involved would have to declare an audited membership roll. Two birds, one stone.
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I think the service the passengers get is as good as it ever was and on Eurofleet I think in most cases it is good service.
Dave
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Legislation is needed to demand that a majority of the paid-up union members vote in favour of IA, rather than a majority of those who chose to vote.
“If you don’t vote we will count it as a NO.”
When you say it like that it does seem kind of wrong, really.
…and is the argument to automatically count it as YES not just as good? –
Try this: You are a paying, supporting member of the union and therefore by default agree to and support its actions in the absence of a specific indication (vote) to the opposite view.
Therefore “If you don’t vote we will count it as a YES”
Neither really works in my view.
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Hi Betty Girl
The unease you mention (by the way, I empathise with you, been there done that and it ain't nice) is exactly what I am talking about, because some pax will notice it and others will not - also, some crews and pax 'click' better than other combinations and that's life.
If you speak with a number of frequent travellers, you will find that there is a perception (from quite a number) that BA is not as good an airline as it was in the past, perhaps due to a lot of the product cutbacks, particularly on the short haul business product.
Others swear by BA and some say 'over my dead body', but every airline generates such strong opinions.
I've only flown a couple of BA flights this year, one short haul in economy (50 mins) and a nearly 4 hour sector in business.
It would be difficult to think of how the short flight could be improved, as it was excellently delivered, but the business trip was awful , with inattentive crew who seemed to be talking to colleagues travelling as pax for much of the time. There was a 2 hour gap between the dinner service and the next drinks round (not even water in between) on an aircraft that looked as if it should have been refurbished many years ago.
From such a small sample of flights, it is difficult to determine whether this 50/50 experience is typical, but that was my 2010 experience.
I'm just about to book a return business ticket to South Africa for next month and with BA unrest and BAA unrest, unfortunately I will not be using your airline for this one, even though the pricing is competitive, I'll pay about 10% more for another carrier.
There's a real world out there and the union and management need to recognize this, sort things out and get back to fighting the competition, not each other.
I do regret that decent hard working folks like you are caught in the middle, you deserve better.
The unease you mention (by the way, I empathise with you, been there done that and it ain't nice) is exactly what I am talking about, because some pax will notice it and others will not - also, some crews and pax 'click' better than other combinations and that's life.
If you speak with a number of frequent travellers, you will find that there is a perception (from quite a number) that BA is not as good an airline as it was in the past, perhaps due to a lot of the product cutbacks, particularly on the short haul business product.
Others swear by BA and some say 'over my dead body', but every airline generates such strong opinions.
I've only flown a couple of BA flights this year, one short haul in economy (50 mins) and a nearly 4 hour sector in business.
It would be difficult to think of how the short flight could be improved, as it was excellently delivered, but the business trip was awful , with inattentive crew who seemed to be talking to colleagues travelling as pax for much of the time. There was a 2 hour gap between the dinner service and the next drinks round (not even water in between) on an aircraft that looked as if it should have been refurbished many years ago.
From such a small sample of flights, it is difficult to determine whether this 50/50 experience is typical, but that was my 2010 experience.
I'm just about to book a return business ticket to South Africa for next month and with BA unrest and BAA unrest, unfortunately I will not be using your airline for this one, even though the pricing is competitive, I'll pay about 10% more for another carrier.
There's a real world out there and the union and management need to recognize this, sort things out and get back to fighting the competition, not each other.
I do regret that decent hard working folks like you are caught in the middle, you deserve better.
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There is at the moment no way of telling what is abstaining and what is apathy.
Abstaining from voting is a deliberate act, much the same as casting a vote is a deliberate act. Simply not voting could be a deliberate vote or it could be apathy.
If there was an option on the form marked abstain that you could tick then I think it would be reasonable to exclude that vote from any requirement to be part of the 50.1% of union members.
Not returning a vote should be counted as a no vote because taking strike action is a deliberate act. If you cannot be bothered to vote, what likelihood you will actively support a strike?
Abstaining from voting is a deliberate act, much the same as casting a vote is a deliberate act. Simply not voting could be a deliberate vote or it could be apathy.
If there was an option on the form marked abstain that you could tick then I think it would be reasonable to exclude that vote from any requirement to be part of the 50.1% of union members.
Not returning a vote should be counted as a no vote because taking strike action is a deliberate act. If you cannot be bothered to vote, what likelihood you will actively support a strike?
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If there was an option on the form marked abstain that you could tick then I think it would be reasonable to exclude that vote from any requirement to be part of the 50.1% of union members.
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option on the form marked abstain
Or in the least rater more "choice" of action
Other options I've seen: -
Disagree with any action.
Agree with IA but not including a strike.
Agree vith IA including a strike.
All on the same paper.
I may be, in part, where this all went wrong by going straight to a strike option!
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There is a simple way to fix the IA impasse, and this applies to all unions, not just BASSA. Legislation is needed to demand that a majority of the paid-up union members vote in favour of IA, rather than a majority of those who chose to vote.
Ipso facto, the union involved would have to declare an audited membership roll. Two birds, one stone.
Ipso facto, the union involved would have to declare an audited membership roll. Two birds, one stone.
No doubt that will be pleasing news to many on here. Who do we blame/thank for this?
Last edited by Litebulbs; 13th Aug 2010 at 12:10.