BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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Its the backing away from dealing with 'very difficult people like these' that got us into the mess we currently with a union that has a desire to manage the airline - thats not their role.
BA are asserting themselves and BASSA are wanting to throw their toys out like a spoiled child.
BA are asserting themselves and BASSA are wanting to throw their toys out like a spoiled child.
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From TC post of the other forum. regarding BASSA revealing the real names behind the forum names of anyone disagreeing with DH's views.
Surely that isn't allowed in a unions constitution? Revealing members names that don't agree with the leaderships views. What next?, revealing anyone voting in a balot opposite to the leaderships reccomendation?
Anyone confirm this is what bassa have done?
Surely that isn't allowed in a unions constitution? Revealing members names that don't agree with the leaderships views. What next?, revealing anyone voting in a balot opposite to the leaderships reccomendation?
Anyone confirm this is what bassa have done?
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Why do you think I was implying that the BA management should have ''backed away?"
Just interested, as I did not say nor mean that.
Offering staff travel back did not exactly do the job, did it?
Neither am I paid anything like the big bucks the BA top team draws, so I don''t feel any inclination to declare what they should have done.
I just don't see how one is too impressed with execs who allow an industrial dispute to roll on for many months, whilst the brand is suffering colateral damage.
Just my two cents, don't really care whether you agree and acknowledge your right to have a differing opinion.
Just interested, as I did not say nor mean that.
Offering staff travel back did not exactly do the job, did it?
Neither am I paid anything like the big bucks the BA top team draws, so I don''t feel any inclination to declare what they should have done.
I just don't see how one is too impressed with execs who allow an industrial dispute to roll on for many months, whilst the brand is suffering colateral damage.
Just my two cents, don't really care whether you agree and acknowledge your right to have a differing opinion.
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I do agree that BA should not have let this dispute drag on for so long.
It was nearly two years ago the Lehman Brothers collapsed and it was only at the beginning of 2009 did the company start having talks with the unions on cost-savings. The company set a deadline of 30 June 2009 which in itself was too late. The company should have completed negotiations and had changes ready to implement at the end of its financial year 31 March 2009 so it started the next financial year with the benefit of productivity savings.
Negotiations went on way past the 30 June 2009 deadline and from the court judgment it was clear then that BASSA would not play ball. It was only towards the end of the year did the company take matters into its own hands and introduce non-contractual changes.
It was nearly two years ago the Lehman Brothers collapsed and it was only at the beginning of 2009 did the company start having talks with the unions on cost-savings. The company set a deadline of 30 June 2009 which in itself was too late. The company should have completed negotiations and had changes ready to implement at the end of its financial year 31 March 2009 so it started the next financial year with the benefit of productivity savings.
Negotiations went on way past the 30 June 2009 deadline and from the court judgment it was clear then that BASSA would not play ball. It was only towards the end of the year did the company take matters into its own hands and introduce non-contractual changes.
De-recognition of the junta to recognise PCCC - no way.
A couple of posters have mentionned that PCCC are "waiting in the wings" if BA decide to negotiate with them rather than with the junta from the bunker.
That is not going to happen until/unless PCCC can prove that they have a serious majority of members in a clearly defined group. It might work if the get, say, 60% of staff at lgw, but it won't work at lhr.
If there is one thing that is guaranteed to get the whole Trade Union movement excited, it is de-recognition.
Whilst the law stops both sympathy action, and action by defined groups that are not directly involved in the dispute, both Unite and the TUC would be forced in to a major campaign against BA. At present, BA is fine opposite Unite and the TUC, but de-recognition brings in all sorts of risks that BA just does not need right now.
The only successful de-recognition schemes that I can remember are the oilies, (Shell et al) who de-recognised the T & G for their drivers, and Astra Zeneca, (Pharms) who derecognised all TUs for their white collar staff. In both cases, the employers ended up paying those who stayed with the Co. quite a lot for the privilege of derecognition. BA can't afford that. Anyone think of any more cases of derecognition?
That is not going to happen until/unless PCCC can prove that they have a serious majority of members in a clearly defined group. It might work if the get, say, 60% of staff at lgw, but it won't work at lhr.
If there is one thing that is guaranteed to get the whole Trade Union movement excited, it is de-recognition.
Whilst the law stops both sympathy action, and action by defined groups that are not directly involved in the dispute, both Unite and the TUC would be forced in to a major campaign against BA. At present, BA is fine opposite Unite and the TUC, but de-recognition brings in all sorts of risks that BA just does not need right now.
The only successful de-recognition schemes that I can remember are the oilies, (Shell et al) who de-recognised the T & G for their drivers, and Astra Zeneca, (Pharms) who derecognised all TUs for their white collar staff. In both cases, the employers ended up paying those who stayed with the Co. quite a lot for the privilege of derecognition. BA can't afford that. Anyone think of any more cases of derecognition?
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I just don't see how one is too impressed with execs who allow an industrial dispute to roll on for many months, whilst the brand is suffering colateral damage.
But to stop employers binning people just because they don't like them, there are things called laws.
Therefore BA are operating within the law and have given BASSA every chance to wise up and do the right thing.
There is only one party dragging this out, and that's BASSA, and that's because they are also operating within the law, which protects them. However, their ability to do damage is already waning considerably, and I for one look forward to them sloping off with their tails between their legs.
I feel sorry for the decent, hardworking CC who have given their all through this dispute, but get tarred with the same brush by less well educated members of the public.
As others have said, BA need to find a way to "manage" these miserable so-and-so's out of the company, but the truth is, despite their constant bitching and moaning, they know they have it good!
Paxing All Over The World
LD12986
As I understand it, BA started cost savings quite some time before this. They successfully negotiated with the flight crew and the engineers and the cabin crew at LGW. [Any one with dates of those settlements?] By leaving the obviously difficult candidate to last, they had them cornered.
It was nearly two years ago the Lehman Brothers collapsed and it was only at the beginning of 2009 did the company start having talks with the unions on cost-savings. The company set a deadline of 30 June 2009 which in itself was too late. The company should have completed negotiations and had changes ready to implement at the end of its financial year 31 March 2009 so it started the next financial year with the benefit of productivity savings.
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LotPax, there are many of us that would like BA to be able to summarily sack these dour, miserable old timers who are a blight on the airline and put so many people off flying on it. If they had been able to do that, then there probably wouldn't even have been a strike.
But to stop employers binning people just because they don't like them, there are things called laws.
But to stop employers binning people just because they don't like them, there are things called laws.
There is an old saying that "where there's a will, there's a way."
From the other place....
a rather accurate definition of the monumental incompetence of the junta.
However, I have to say that they learnt how to be this incompetent from previous BA management. We all get the TUs that we deserve.........
"As for industrial action, there is absolutely no hope of BASSA managing to conduct a legal ballot for any further action.
The chances of BASSA managing to identify an entirely new set of issues for a further ballot, get a decent mandate for industrial action, not mess up the administration of the ballot, and not shoot themselves in the foot by linking the strike ballot to the previous dispute in any official communications, internet posts etc are zero."
a rather accurate definition of the monumental incompetence of the junta.
However, I have to say that they learnt how to be this incompetent from previous BA management. We all get the TUs that we deserve.........
"As for industrial action, there is absolutely no hope of BASSA managing to conduct a legal ballot for any further action.
The chances of BASSA managing to identify an entirely new set of issues for a further ballot, get a decent mandate for industrial action, not mess up the administration of the ballot, and not shoot themselves in the foot by linking the strike ballot to the previous dispute in any official communications, internet posts etc are zero."
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They just don't get it....
If people get squeamish over using military analogies, then people please wake up! Mr Walsh has been waging a ruthless “Anti Union War” for the past two years, its hard not to draw comparisons, Nicky Marcus Worldwide rep was suspended last night over an incident that arose from a disciplinary she is doing for a member - we are literally in a “battle” for our working lives.
Mr Walsh wants one glorious big battle that he wins and to the victor goes the spoils of war, we instead need to keep fighting but differently over a longer period, hence the Vietnam analogy.
Mr Walsh wants one glorious big battle that he wins and to the victor goes the spoils of war, we instead need to keep fighting but differently over a longer period, hence the Vietnam analogy.
In the real world poor leadership has plunged BASSA in the abyss where several unions already lay.
And to use the same 'battle' terminology for BA's determination in saving a brilliant airline, BASSA is hell bent on destroying, is also very very stupid. Bad leadership and Marcus gets what she and they deserve like the rest of the BASSA's inept leadership. Better you get one thing abundantly clear. You tried your damndest to wreck BA - and the cc lives - you failed in the former but succeeded in the latter. Does that make you feel proud?
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Mr. Holley's latest message raises some serious questions regarding BASSA's recent representations regarding numbers who participated in the strike.
No BASSA member should read this without taking serious pause to consider where the union currently stands.
The message in its entirety can be found on the Cabin Crew thread at http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/418...f-only-90.html
It is obvious from the first few paragraphs that Mr. Holley understands that many members were not amused by the flippant and smarmy tone of the original. His title of "Easy to Read" is, in itself, an insult to his members. The inference given is that he has to dumb down the message for them to understand it rather than BASSA simply communicating in a professional manner.
A few points of interest:
Mr. Holley is conveniently forgetting that thorn in BASSA's side, Pprune. Both sides are debated here on a regular basis as he well knows. His statement regarding BASSA being an "open forum" is simply false.
Mr. Holley's discussion of Mixed Fleet gives lie to those "hit and run" posters on the Cabin Crew forum who state that Mixed Fleet will fail and is nothing to worry about.
I believe Mr. Holley's last paragraph regarding Mixed Fleet is correct in part. Aggressive performance management is something that has been lacking in BA of late regarding its Cabin Crew and it shows. Mixed Fleet actually provides some hope to customers that wish to be the main concern of Cabin Crew...not worrying about the dangers of closing a shade.
And most interesting of all commentary:
What happened to "7,000 Cabin Crew went on strike and we're still counting". If that statement were true it certainly would not represent a union "destroyed".
Again Mr. Holley gives no clear vision and pointedly offers no direction to those who have lost their staff travel. No notice regarding when suit will be filed only a promise of a lengthy delay with no date certain for delivery of action or relief.
Members having been paying monthly dues for years, YEARS...and there have been assessments received from other Unions and BASSA can't even open a temporary office? Yet Unite is looking to expand its £100 million "training centre for shop stewards"??? Unite union facing opposition over plans to expand £100m headquarters | Mail Online
Rather than a "rally the troops" message one is left with the impression of desperation and regret.
My musical suggestion would be to replace ABBA's "Waterloo" with Eminem's "Love The Way You Lie".
No BASSA member should read this without taking serious pause to consider where the union currently stands.
The message in its entirety can be found on the Cabin Crew thread at http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/418...f-only-90.html
It is obvious from the first few paragraphs that Mr. Holley understands that many members were not amused by the flippant and smarmy tone of the original. His title of "Easy to Read" is, in itself, an insult to his members. The inference given is that he has to dumb down the message for them to understand it rather than BASSA simply communicating in a professional manner.
A few points of interest:
There are no forums where managers openly criticise British Airways leadership, or indeed Willie Walsh, or Bill Francis et al;
Mr. Holley's discussion of Mixed Fleet gives lie to those "hit and run" posters on the Cabin Crew forum who state that Mixed Fleet will fail and is nothing to worry about.
New mixed fleet is already being recruited. It starts soon, very soon. People are applying from outside and from all over BA, even a number of current crew. They must all end their current contract and be reemployed on a new, very different contract.
This Fleet is where British Airways believes the future is. Not with you. They are calling them the “creme de la creme of crew”; that’s why you cannot transfer, you must “apply” to ensure you buy into the new culture; they will be kept completely separate from current crew so that they do not learn your culture. They will even be trained by external trainers and will not mix with you. Believe it or not, they will also - no doubt as a provocative stance - wear the uniform hat, to identify them as “different” - better if you like, than you.
The roles, working practices and aggressive performance management you will have to work to on this fleet will bear no resemblance to anything you have known.
This Fleet is where British Airways believes the future is. Not with you. They are calling them the “creme de la creme of crew”; that’s why you cannot transfer, you must “apply” to ensure you buy into the new culture; they will be kept completely separate from current crew so that they do not learn your culture. They will even be trained by external trainers and will not mix with you. Believe it or not, they will also - no doubt as a provocative stance - wear the uniform hat, to identify them as “different” - better if you like, than you.
The roles, working practices and aggressive performance management you will have to work to on this fleet will bear no resemblance to anything you have known.
And most interesting of all commentary:
Mr Walsh has all but destroyed the union. Whether it’s window blinds, new crewing levels or less rest, who in the future is going to question it? Who are people going to complain to when things go wrong? The union? If things don’t change then it’s already too late. The office has long gone, reps are being routinely sacked, the union only exists within ourselves now, its structure has been dismantled. (emphasis added)
What happened to "7,000 Cabin Crew went on strike and we're still counting". If that statement were true it certainly would not represent a union "destroyed".
Again Mr. Holley gives no clear vision and pointedly offers no direction to those who have lost their staff travel. No notice regarding when suit will be filed only a promise of a lengthy delay with no date certain for delivery of action or relief.
Members having been paying monthly dues for years, YEARS...and there have been assessments received from other Unions and BASSA can't even open a temporary office? Yet Unite is looking to expand its £100 million "training centre for shop stewards"??? Unite union facing opposition over plans to expand £100m headquarters | Mail Online
Rather than a "rally the troops" message one is left with the impression of desperation and regret.
My musical suggestion would be to replace ABBA's "Waterloo" with Eminem's "Love The Way You Lie".
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So we read that DH has determined there is no point undertaking further strike action and also that BASSA is not ready to settle thus his decision is to take the "do nothing" option. Based on his narrow-minded, personal, view of the matter he has it in his head that his nemesis WW is under pressure to settle before taking his promotion to IAG but I cannot see any basis for this whatsoever. WW will take his promotion leaving others who report to him in immediate charge of BA while clearly still having overall responsibility for BA as well as IB in his new role. It simply cannot be in WW's, or any directly reporting successor's, interest to settle with BASSA as any settlement will only last until the next time BASSA chooses to kick-up. BA, and subsequently IAG under WW's leadership, will be seeking a collective bargaining relationship with a union who is prepared to work collaboratively with them rather that adversarially as BASSA currently is. With DH's and other BASSA rep's memberships under question, as they are no longer BA employees, and UNITE's repeatedly expressed frustration in the current BASSA leaders it won't be long before BASSA changes it's leadership for BA to be able to reconsider while also having PCCC as a second option in seeking a collaborative union to work with moving forwards.
I say again that BA have achieved everything they currently require of their CC and if BASSA chooses to take no further action then this will be just fine with them. Further, BA clearly has UNITE's support in quashing any interim wild-cat misdemeanors. The only price is carrying some extra VCC and MF staff overhead for a while but I'm sure this will now start to be bled away as BASSA has clearly shown it has nothing more to call a protected strike over and has all but stated this in public thus showing to BA it has capitulated. Oh, and yes, the ever present unfair dismissal tribunals and claims which are simply an inconvenient but budgeted consequence of any business choosing to employ people in this current age of entitlement.
The fat lady has finally sung and it appears not to be BASSA's tune ..........
I say again that BA have achieved everything they currently require of their CC and if BASSA chooses to take no further action then this will be just fine with them. Further, BA clearly has UNITE's support in quashing any interim wild-cat misdemeanors. The only price is carrying some extra VCC and MF staff overhead for a while but I'm sure this will now start to be bled away as BASSA has clearly shown it has nothing more to call a protected strike over and has all but stated this in public thus showing to BA it has capitulated. Oh, and yes, the ever present unfair dismissal tribunals and claims which are simply an inconvenient but budgeted consequence of any business choosing to employ people in this current age of entitlement.
The fat lady has finally sung and it appears not to be BASSA's tune ..........
Last edited by Phil Rigg; 8th Aug 2010 at 17:36.
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It is quite sad to read the ramblings of BASSA's latest incarnation on the CC thread; it is almost certainly the same BASSA poster who has been laughed out of proceedings because of their lack of ability to include any facts whatsoever in their arguments, and this still continues.
The personal attacks on WW are at fever pitch, and the attempts at scaring VCC and other BA employees are being delivered with an equally strident tone.
What's sad is that I genuinely believe that this misguided individual believes that people out there can still be convinced.
I can only assume that such is the level of power they've exercised over 5,000 or so of their rather gullible members, especially over the last year or so, that they think the rest of BA to be equally malleable.
I look forward to the day when BA is rid of them.
The personal attacks on WW are at fever pitch, and the attempts at scaring VCC and other BA employees are being delivered with an equally strident tone.
What's sad is that I genuinely believe that this misguided individual believes that people out there can still be convinced.
I can only assume that such is the level of power they've exercised over 5,000 or so of their rather gullible members, especially over the last year or so, that they think the rest of BA to be equally malleable.
I look forward to the day when BA is rid of them.
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The Sandown meeting (IIRC) voted to defer elections until the dispute is over.
The web mouthpiece, who now cannot stand for re-election, is now very clearly calling for a "marathon" dispute.
There seems to be a breathtakingly obvious conflict of interest here. Could one of you who is authorised ask Hecto Vector about this on the other forum ?
The web mouthpiece, who now cannot stand for re-election, is now very clearly calling for a "marathon" dispute.
There seems to be a breathtakingly obvious conflict of interest here. Could one of you who is authorised ask Hecto Vector about this on the other forum ?
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admin messages
looking back over some of the recent messages from Bassa Admin i found this one
"BASSA > Latest News
A QUICK UPDATE
Aug 3rd, 2010 by admin
This is is just a quick update because I told you the branch committee were meeting today, mentioning there might be a Branch meeting called next week and I guess a lot of you will be "tuning in" for some confirmation or not. For various reasons which include, school holidays, availability of venues, reps on leave and a host of reasons I don’t want to reveal to BA, it was decided to hold back any branch meeting until Monday 6th September at Kempton Park (11am). This does not rule out a ballot for industrial action taking place before that date. A fuller explanation with expanded details will be put out later in the week.
The UNITE meeting with Walsh was short (but alas not sweet). He remains as depressingly stubborn and foolishly intransigent as ever, so scheduled talks next week are not expected to bring any dramatic improvements to the situation. Sadly this means the fight goes on and yesterday afternoon we were heartened when JGS Woodley and Simpson guaranteed the continuation of UNITE’s full and unequivocal support.
Like me I expect you are constantly asked by friends, family and people "down the pub" whether or not it is safe to book BA tickets on such and such date. Last year when we announced the 12 days of Xmas we attracted a lot of criticism from the media, and indeed a High Court judge, for ruining the travelling public’s plans over the holiday period. Notice was indeed short and the fact many could not make alternative plans left us with an uncomfortable feeling. If however, in future you are asked the question about when the next likely dates for industrial action are going to be, it would be wise to advise whoever is doing the asking that no dates, no matter how sacrosanct, have been ruled out.
These are tough times for cabin crew and there has been a lot of vindictive pain inflicted by BA on loyal union members. From here on in, we make no apology that we do not intend to take that pain lying down. Whatever it takes will have to be done.
See you on the 6th if you can make it. Regards Duncan".
i know that Unite rescinded Duncan's close the blinds comments, but have not seen anything about these comments which appear to me to be encouraging union members to defy the companies attempts to get back to normal.
is this part of the new plans by bassa to employ "guerilla tactics" as mentioned previously in one of duncan's posts.
"BASSA > Latest News
A QUICK UPDATE
Aug 3rd, 2010 by admin
This is is just a quick update because I told you the branch committee were meeting today, mentioning there might be a Branch meeting called next week and I guess a lot of you will be "tuning in" for some confirmation or not. For various reasons which include, school holidays, availability of venues, reps on leave and a host of reasons I don’t want to reveal to BA, it was decided to hold back any branch meeting until Monday 6th September at Kempton Park (11am). This does not rule out a ballot for industrial action taking place before that date. A fuller explanation with expanded details will be put out later in the week.The UNITE meeting with Walsh was short (but alas not sweet). He remains as depressingly stubborn and foolishly intransigent as ever, so scheduled talks next week are not expected to bring any dramatic improvements to the situation. Sadly this means the fight goes on and yesterday afternoon we were heartened when JGS Woodley and Simpson guaranteed the continuation of UNITE’s full and unequivocal support.
Like me I expect you are constantly asked by friends, family and people "down the pub" whether or not it is safe to book BA tickets on such and such date. Last year when we announced the 12 days of Xmas we attracted a lot of criticism from the media, and indeed a High Court judge, for ruining the travelling public’s plans over the holiday period. Notice was indeed short and the fact many could not make alternative plans left us with an uncomfortable feeling. If however, in future you are asked the question about when the next likely dates for industrial action are going to be, it would be wise to advise whoever is doing the asking that no dates, no matter how sacrosanct, have been ruled out.
These are tough times for cabin crew and there has been a lot of vindictive pain inflicted by BA on loyal union members. From here on in, we make no apology that we do not intend to take that pain lying down. Whatever it takes will have to be done.
See you on the 6th if you can make it. Regards Duncan".
i know that Unite rescinded Duncan's close the blinds comments, but have not seen anything about these comments which appear to me to be encouraging union members to defy the companies attempts to get back to normal.
is this part of the new plans by bassa to employ "guerilla tactics" as mentioned previously in one of duncan's posts.
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So... if not closing the window blinds when told to was construed as a form of illegal Industrial Action.
How does that leave the crew who refuse to hand out hot towels in World Traveler class?
...or has that problem now been resolved?
How does that leave the crew who refuse to hand out hot towels in World Traveler class?
...or has that problem now been resolved?
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Best Tomato Cultivator Holley expands his greenhouse to enhance his income, as, after their latest missive, it appears less likely that his erstwhile United mates will grant him a Golden Parachute.
How embarrassing to lose two well-paid jobs, but he should not have started a fight with a manifestly better armed opponent.
How embarrassing to lose two well-paid jobs, but he should not have started a fight with a manifestly better armed opponent.