BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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Ancient Observer.
I can't help noticing that you said thank you to Hotel Mode for setting you straight but you never said sorry to me for telling me I was incorrect.
Just an observation.
I can't help noticing that you said thank you to Hotel Mode for setting you straight but you never said sorry to me for telling me I was incorrect.
Just an observation.
Está servira para distraerle.
I have just removed this post below from the special slot where only those who work for airlines are allowed to post. I suppose it's not good just having my own airline because I'll just be told I don't work because I am the boss. Anyway, before any further ructions occur, here is an article from today's FT. Apparently this article is readable by subscription only?
For those who do not want to register.....
BA board faces volley of attacks at AGM
By Pilita Clark, Aerospace Correspondent
Published: July 13 2010 11:07 | Last updated: July 13 2010 20:54
Willie Walsh was jeered, heckled and booed over his handling of the British Airways cabin crew dispute at what could be the last annual meeting of the airline in its current form.
The BA chief executive, and at times the airline’s entire board, endured a volley of attacks by shareholders, many employees, at the Queen Elizabeth II conference centre in Westminster over the strikes that have cost lossmaking BA close to £150m since March.
“Nobody has the guts to question you,” one female flight attendant told Mr Walsh, adding “there’s nothing but fear and loathing” at BA’s headquarters near Heathrow.
A stony faced Mr Walsh, who noted some cabin crew had depicted him “as Hitler or as the Devil” during the walk-outs, said he made no apologies for telling them facts they may not wish to hear, prompting the flight attendant to retort icily: “I’m not a child Mr Walsh.”
It was the first time Mr Walsh had to confront his cabin crew employees publicly since they began voting for a series of stoppages late last year.
Although BA has had to cope with the losses and the bad publicity, it has already done what it set out to do.
While the row was originally sparked by what Unite said was the imposition of crew reductions on long-haul flights, it has since shifted to the staff travel benefits BA removed from striking workers this year and has said will only partially restore. The crew reductions are no longer central to the dispute.
Nevertheless, strikes are still on the agenda. Crew are now voting in a fresh ballot that could lead to further strikes in late summer, depending on the results, due on July 20.
BA has been backed by its largest shareholders and much of the City. Analysts generally look beyond the unrest to annual savings of some £160m BA says it will eventually make after cutting crew numbers on long- haul flights and recruiting cheaper new crew at its main base of Heathrow.
Airlines around the world have suffered industrial unrest as many struggle with large losses during the recession.
Perk concern
Cabin crew were not the only outspoken critics at BA’s annual meeting, writes Pilita Clark.
Some shareholders expressed dismay at the prospect of losing their own travel benefits and seeing future AGMs shift to Madrid if the airline’s merger with Spain’s Iberia goes ahead.
“Why the hell are we going to Madrid?” one investor asked BA board members. ”It’s clear where BA is and here we should stay. If you want to go and have your jollies over there, go, but leave us here!”
Under the terms of the proposed tie-up, future AGMs of the combined group and most board meetings would be in Madrid.
Another shareholder asked what would happen to the 10 per cent discount on publicly advertised fares, that BA shareholders can now claim, if the Iberia merger was completed as planned by the end of this year.
Martin Broughton, chairman, said shareholders would have a chance to vote on the merger later in the year, adding that BA was looking into broadcasting Madrid AGMs by video so UK investors could take part.
Shareholder travel benefits, which Iberia investors do not enjoy, would be up to the new board. “We will be seeking to continue a shareholder discount but I can’t give you any guarantees on it.”
Such feisty AGM scenes will not be repeated at next year’s meeting – at least, not in London – if BA’s attempt to merge with Iberia, the Spanish flag-carrier, is completed as planned by the end of this year.
The newly combined company, to be known as International Airlines Group, will be registered in Madrid and hold most of its board meetings and all shareholder meetings in the Spanish capital.
Mr Walsh will become IAG’s chief executive if the merger goes through, leaving Keith Williams, BA’s current finance director, to run a BA operating company and deal with any remnants of the bitterly fought cabin crew strike.
While many of the most critical speakers and hecklers at Tuesday’s AGM were airline cabin crew or in one case, a 777 pilot, others said they were ordinary shareholders who were, as one put it, “very saddened by the cabin crew situation”, which has seen 22 days of stoppages and thousands of cancelled flights since March.
“I just feel this situation has created long-term damage to the brand,” said one man who described himself as a “shareholder and Executive Club member”.
Another man was cheered as he accused the board of awarding generous bonuses to top managers even though BA has failed to pay a dividend after making record pre-tax losses of nearly £1bn over the past two years.
“You do seem to be feathering your own nests at the expense of the shareholders you are supposed to serve,’’ he said.
An at times exasperated BA chairman Martin Broughton defended the bonuses and said the BA board “stands firmly behind Willie and the management team”.
“The board’s patience with BASSA has now been exhausted,” Mr Broughton warned, referring to the British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association, a division of Unite.
“Willie is often depicted by BASSA and Unite as adopting a confrontational approach to industrial relations,” he said, adding that Mr Walsh had successfully negotiated new work practises with 16 separate union bargaining groups across the business.
But it was Mr Walsh – who has himself not taken a bonus and worked for no salary for a month last year – who suffered the most strident attacks.
One speaker accused him of allowing BA staff who could not swim and were “unable to fasten their seat belts” to apply to be volunteer cabin crew as part of the airline’s strategy of flying through the strikes. Mr Walsh said only Civil Aviation Authority-approved volunteers had been allowed to work.
Another accused him of ignoring BASSA’s offer ahead of the strikes to make at least £52m in savings. Mr Walsh said BASSA made clear the offer was more a temporary “loan” that in no way matched the permanent structural changes BA needs.
Afterwards, he told reporters, “I really enjoyed it”, adding “it gave me the opportunity to address a lot of issues”.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see BA cease to exist in its present form fairly soon and to be taken off shore entirely. WW's just got to sort out the pension fund and then, once the airline is in Madrid, he'll be able to staff it entirely using people from South and Central America, with the exception of Brasil of course, using the favoured nation status that Spain offers to its former overseas colonies which will allow him to circumvent EEC labour protection laws.
For those who do not want to register.....
BA board faces volley of attacks at AGM
By Pilita Clark, Aerospace Correspondent
Published: July 13 2010 11:07 | Last updated: July 13 2010 20:54
Willie Walsh was jeered, heckled and booed over his handling of the British Airways cabin crew dispute at what could be the last annual meeting of the airline in its current form.
The BA chief executive, and at times the airline’s entire board, endured a volley of attacks by shareholders, many employees, at the Queen Elizabeth II conference centre in Westminster over the strikes that have cost lossmaking BA close to £150m since March.
“Nobody has the guts to question you,” one female flight attendant told Mr Walsh, adding “there’s nothing but fear and loathing” at BA’s headquarters near Heathrow.
A stony faced Mr Walsh, who noted some cabin crew had depicted him “as Hitler or as the Devil” during the walk-outs, said he made no apologies for telling them facts they may not wish to hear, prompting the flight attendant to retort icily: “I’m not a child Mr Walsh.”
It was the first time Mr Walsh had to confront his cabin crew employees publicly since they began voting for a series of stoppages late last year.
Although BA has had to cope with the losses and the bad publicity, it has already done what it set out to do.
While the row was originally sparked by what Unite said was the imposition of crew reductions on long-haul flights, it has since shifted to the staff travel benefits BA removed from striking workers this year and has said will only partially restore. The crew reductions are no longer central to the dispute.
Nevertheless, strikes are still on the agenda. Crew are now voting in a fresh ballot that could lead to further strikes in late summer, depending on the results, due on July 20.
BA has been backed by its largest shareholders and much of the City. Analysts generally look beyond the unrest to annual savings of some £160m BA says it will eventually make after cutting crew numbers on long- haul flights and recruiting cheaper new crew at its main base of Heathrow.
Airlines around the world have suffered industrial unrest as many struggle with large losses during the recession.
Perk concern
Cabin crew were not the only outspoken critics at BA’s annual meeting, writes Pilita Clark.
Some shareholders expressed dismay at the prospect of losing their own travel benefits and seeing future AGMs shift to Madrid if the airline’s merger with Spain’s Iberia goes ahead.
“Why the hell are we going to Madrid?” one investor asked BA board members. ”It’s clear where BA is and here we should stay. If you want to go and have your jollies over there, go, but leave us here!”
Under the terms of the proposed tie-up, future AGMs of the combined group and most board meetings would be in Madrid.
Another shareholder asked what would happen to the 10 per cent discount on publicly advertised fares, that BA shareholders can now claim, if the Iberia merger was completed as planned by the end of this year.
Martin Broughton, chairman, said shareholders would have a chance to vote on the merger later in the year, adding that BA was looking into broadcasting Madrid AGMs by video so UK investors could take part.
Shareholder travel benefits, which Iberia investors do not enjoy, would be up to the new board. “We will be seeking to continue a shareholder discount but I can’t give you any guarantees on it.”
Such feisty AGM scenes will not be repeated at next year’s meeting – at least, not in London – if BA’s attempt to merge with Iberia, the Spanish flag-carrier, is completed as planned by the end of this year.
The newly combined company, to be known as International Airlines Group, will be registered in Madrid and hold most of its board meetings and all shareholder meetings in the Spanish capital.
Mr Walsh will become IAG’s chief executive if the merger goes through, leaving Keith Williams, BA’s current finance director, to run a BA operating company and deal with any remnants of the bitterly fought cabin crew strike.
While many of the most critical speakers and hecklers at Tuesday’s AGM were airline cabin crew or in one case, a 777 pilot, others said they were ordinary shareholders who were, as one put it, “very saddened by the cabin crew situation”, which has seen 22 days of stoppages and thousands of cancelled flights since March.
“I just feel this situation has created long-term damage to the brand,” said one man who described himself as a “shareholder and Executive Club member”.
Another man was cheered as he accused the board of awarding generous bonuses to top managers even though BA has failed to pay a dividend after making record pre-tax losses of nearly £1bn over the past two years.
“You do seem to be feathering your own nests at the expense of the shareholders you are supposed to serve,’’ he said.
An at times exasperated BA chairman Martin Broughton defended the bonuses and said the BA board “stands firmly behind Willie and the management team”.
“The board’s patience with BASSA has now been exhausted,” Mr Broughton warned, referring to the British Airlines Stewards and Stewardesses Association, a division of Unite.
“Willie is often depicted by BASSA and Unite as adopting a confrontational approach to industrial relations,” he said, adding that Mr Walsh had successfully negotiated new work practises with 16 separate union bargaining groups across the business.
But it was Mr Walsh – who has himself not taken a bonus and worked for no salary for a month last year – who suffered the most strident attacks.
One speaker accused him of allowing BA staff who could not swim and were “unable to fasten their seat belts” to apply to be volunteer cabin crew as part of the airline’s strategy of flying through the strikes. Mr Walsh said only Civil Aviation Authority-approved volunteers had been allowed to work.
Another accused him of ignoring BASSA’s offer ahead of the strikes to make at least £52m in savings. Mr Walsh said BASSA made clear the offer was more a temporary “loan” that in no way matched the permanent structural changes BA needs.
Afterwards, he told reporters, “I really enjoyed it”, adding “it gave me the opportunity to address a lot of issues”.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see BA cease to exist in its present form fairly soon and to be taken off shore entirely. WW's just got to sort out the pension fund and then, once the airline is in Madrid, he'll be able to staff it entirely using people from South and Central America, with the exception of Brasil of course, using the favoured nation status that Spain offers to its former overseas colonies which will allow him to circumvent EEC labour protection laws.
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Originally Posted by R Knee
If the regulators (CAA etc.) deem it legal then it the shortfall may be the lifestyle of those complaining.
It is the responsibility of crew to ensure they make the best effort to maximise their rest period to comply. There are ample opportunities within those regulations to enjoy 'stopovers', and this has been and should remain a benefit of the job. However, it is also the crew's (including FO's) responsibility to inform the aircraft commander of any shortfall in their rest requirements and any captain must take this into consideration before allowing their participation as one of his crew, especially when deciding to operate into allowable extensions of duty hours.
Fri - Report 1650 LGW-XXX-LGW
Sat - Clear LGW 0025 Report 2105 LGW-XXX-LGW
Sun - Clear LGW 0720
Mon - Day Off
Tues - Report 0605 LGW-XXX-LGW-XXX Clear 1310
Wed - Report 0520 XXX-LGW-XXX-LGW Clear 1315
Thu - Report 1355 LGW-XXX-LGW-XXX Clear 2225
Fri - Report 1510 XXX-LGW-XXX-LGW Clear 0045
(Tues and Thur were/are out station nightstops and I have taken out the destinations to try to protect my identity somewhat)
That roster is perfectly legal but I have gone from 2 deep night flights, had one day off and then straight onto early flights. And before this, I'd had 2 days off following 3 days of shorthaul and a bullet longhaul so a 6 day run and time zone change. Maximising your rest isn't easy when you're constantly jumping around like that.
That is the problem we have at LGW. The above is not an abnormal roster and yes, it can be sustained in the short term but long term, we are running into problems.
I don't actually blame the company, although I think more research could have been carried out at the start. As I said, my previous airline had had many years of practice to hone mixed fleet rosters. (Is hone a word? Sounds right but looks wrong and my brain won't come up with an alternative!) I suspect the messages we have been passing on to the union have not made it as far is the ears that matter, due to union leader's preoccupation with what is happening up at LHR. (The LGW reps have tried, to give them their due but have had no back up from the union.) That is why we need proper representation to talk with the company. But as Diplome said, right now BA have more important problems to deal with. Once things have settled, we will be able to talk to them and hopefully come up with some compromises.
The difficulty with making it clear to the Captain etc is that as said, it's all perfectly legal. There's nothing the flight crew can do unless we decide to go fatigued at which point the company will reply, "But it's legal!" And that goes for any airline, not just BA. I'm sure many flying crew from many airlines around the world have heard those words! Just because it's legal, it doesn't make it right. Maybe the laws need looking at. And maybe all airlines need to be reminded that that maximum allowable hours are there for safety reasons, not as a target to be reached.....
However, for the record, I have never operated a flight if I have felt I will be putting crew and passengers at risk.
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Hi JetSet Lady.
That is a hard roster. I do alot of two day six sectors as well at LHR but I try not to bid to do two in a row!!!! ( having said that I did two in a row last week and it nearly killed me!). God knows how you managed that after two night flights in a row. You poor thing!
We only have a few night flights at LHR and strangely some crew actually like doing them and actually bid for them!!!If I get one it is straight on the swap forum in the vain hope that someone might want to swop with me!
Do you have a bidding system at LGW like we do on Eurofleet?
Anyway if that is a normal roster I am not surprised that you are exausted.
That is a hard roster. I do alot of two day six sectors as well at LHR but I try not to bid to do two in a row!!!! ( having said that I did two in a row last week and it nearly killed me!). God knows how you managed that after two night flights in a row. You poor thing!
We only have a few night flights at LHR and strangely some crew actually like doing them and actually bid for them!!!If I get one it is straight on the swap forum in the vain hope that someone might want to swop with me!
Do you have a bidding system at LGW like we do on Eurofleet?
Anyway if that is a normal roster I am not surprised that you are exausted.
Está servira para distraerle.
Jet set lady.
To Hone is indeed a word in the English language and it's a very useful one.
'Don't you even think of honing your seduction skills on me!' is a phrase you might want to memorise. Of course you might prefer to modify matters somewhat and invite the honing of all sorts of skills.
The word, which you used quite correctly, is a transitive verb and means: to sharpen or to whet. It is usually applied to razors, sickles or scythes but could equally well go with thighs.
I once did six weeks on the trot of earlies. Once you get that far down the line and this was before edition 4 of CAP 371, it then became an acclimatised roster pattern. Sunk I was and when I complained I was told that the Chief Pilot was the man who had written the then applicable CAP371 for the CAA.
To Hone is indeed a word in the English language and it's a very useful one.
'Don't you even think of honing your seduction skills on me!' is a phrase you might want to memorise. Of course you might prefer to modify matters somewhat and invite the honing of all sorts of skills.
The word, which you used quite correctly, is a transitive verb and means: to sharpen or to whet. It is usually applied to razors, sickles or scythes but could equally well go with thighs.
I once did six weeks on the trot of earlies. Once you get that far down the line and this was before edition 4 of CAP 371, it then became an acclimatised roster pattern. Sunk I was and when I complained I was told that the Chief Pilot was the man who had written the then applicable CAP371 for the CAA.
Last edited by cavortingcheetah; 14th Jul 2010 at 16:56. Reason: Credit spelling
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Betty girl,
That's a pretty average roster for us. Not the best certainly, but not unusual. I don't actually mind night flights but it's the mixing of earlies and lates that is hard! Add long haul into the pot and it all takes it's toll.
We do have the same Carmen system at LGW but I'm convinced that Carmen is in fact, an old bitter and twisted CSD that was retired for the safety of all on board. As far as I can tell, she operates the same method used for football match draws, picking balls out of the crew and destination machines. "No 15 - JSL, No 238 - Izmir. JSL will go to Izmir"
If only I needed to! 
But thank-you for confirming I had the correct word and I shall remember to check who wrote the rules before I complain in future!
In the meantime, I need to go and research this Iberia merger in more detail. I don't know enough about it but from the little I do know and looking through the report of the AGM, it scares me more than anything we have been through so far. When will BASSA realise that by not seeing the wood for the trees, they are merely hastening along the end of British Airways!
That's a pretty average roster for us. Not the best certainly, but not unusual. I don't actually mind night flights but it's the mixing of earlies and lates that is hard! Add long haul into the pot and it all takes it's toll.
We do have the same Carmen system at LGW but I'm convinced that Carmen is in fact, an old bitter and twisted CSD that was retired for the safety of all on board. As far as I can tell, she operates the same method used for football match draws, picking balls out of the crew and destination machines. "No 15 - JSL, No 238 - Izmir. JSL will go to Izmir"
Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah
'Don't you even think of honing your seduction skills on me!' is a phrase you might want to memorise.
But thank-you for confirming I had the correct word and I shall remember to check who wrote the rules before I complain in future!
In the meantime, I need to go and research this Iberia merger in more detail. I don't know enough about it but from the little I do know and looking through the report of the AGM, it scares me more than anything we have been through so far. When will BASSA realise that by not seeing the wood for the trees, they are merely hastening along the end of British Airways!
Está servira para distraerle.
Betty Girl
I think that is usually how one would interpret a lot of dashed lines at the end of an newspaper article which had been quoted as an inclusion. That usually suffices to signify the end of any quoted script. The words that follow on from there are obviously not connected with the article. And WW is mentioned in the third person so the wording could hardly have even been construed as being his own words.
I am really not surprised that letters from BA and perhaps BASSA have been misinterpreted or misconstrued if my simple offering can give rise to such misapprehension.
I think that is usually how one would interpret a lot of dashed lines at the end of an newspaper article which had been quoted as an inclusion. That usually suffices to signify the end of any quoted script. The words that follow on from there are obviously not connected with the article. And WW is mentioned in the third person so the wording could hardly have even been construed as being his own words.
I am really not surprised that letters from BA and perhaps BASSA have been misinterpreted or misconstrued if my simple offering can give rise to such misapprehension.
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In the meantime, I need to go and research this Iberia merger in more detail. I don't know enough about it but from the little I do know and looking through the report of the AGM, it scares me more than anything we have been through so far. When will BASSA realise that by not seeing the wood for the trees, they are merely hastening along the end of British Airways
In order to keep their respective rights to routes, the two will remain as separately operated and managed businesses. As they already co-operate on routes to Spain, I can't see much in terms of switching routes and crews between the two airlines.
Overall it is a positive move for the business to help it grow and be profitable. As is anti-trust immunity for AA, BA and Iberia on transatlantic routes.
There will be a lot more codeshares, but this will be so each airline has the marketing clout/profile of the other to help drive traffic into each other's networks.
I would think the first target will savings by sharing "back-office" functions such as IT, procurement etc.
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Bucksbird
20th July.
cavortingcheetah
You will then be surprised to know that Douglas Bader had a hand in too while he was working for Shell!
20th July.
cavortingcheetah
I was told that the Chief Pilot was the man who had written the then applicable CAP371 for the CAA.
Está servira para distraerle.
PPRune Pop
How good to hear your voice again! Hope you and yours are well and thriving!
I am totally surprised to hear that Bader was involved. In fact and coincidence I have just been reading a badly type written report of one of his missions which has just been released under some secrecy act. I think he says he had a pot at a Dornier which will give you a clue as to the ID of the now deceased Chief Pilot of whom I spoke earlier.
Keep well.
cc.
How good to hear your voice again! Hope you and yours are well and thriving!
I am totally surprised to hear that Bader was involved. In fact and coincidence I have just been reading a badly type written report of one of his missions which has just been released under some secrecy act. I think he says he had a pot at a Dornier which will give you a clue as to the ID of the now deceased Chief Pilot of whom I spoke earlier.
Keep well.
cc.
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Drifting back to the subject, I'm very reliably informedc that there have been a number of confirmed sabotage attempts by some cabin crew, I assume in failed attemps to delay flights.
So the BASSA comments regarding disclipary action mentioned in the CC thread are, shall we say, rather underplaying the truth.
(this is not including at least on criminal action that is in progress either)
So the BASSA comments regarding disclipary action mentioned in the CC thread are, shall we say, rather underplaying the truth.
(this is not including at least on criminal action that is in progress either)
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I have been lurking on these threads for the last six months but have not posted, During and immediately after the last strike period I flew two long haul segments in F and two 4 hour segments in CE. While I found the service on these segments quite good, if somewhat robotic, this has not always been the case in recent years. If anything I think “inconsistent” best describes BA cabin service. As a result of my experiences and the comments on these threads I believe the best long term outcome of the current vote is for Bassa to reject the offer and subsequently vote too have another strike. Assuming Bassa then commence a strike BA’s hand will be forced and I believe they will have to take the gloves off and terminate strikers. Short of replacing the employees that have exhibited the behavior we have seen in the last year I do not see how BA can run a competitive operation.
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From another AGM report:
Another interesting take on it here:
Verbal slugfest at British Airways AGM - interactive investor
What happened to the votes at the end of the meeting, or was that just last year?
There were two factions: shareholders (silver-haired, beige-clad, respectful), and shareholder employees (younger, disgruntled and heckling). At times it seemed as if war would break out between the two, letting chief executive Willie Walsh off the hook. But he received his fair share of brickbats as he slugged it out for nearly three hours.
Verbal slugfest at British Airways AGM - interactive investor
What happened to the votes at the end of the meeting, or was that just last year?
Apology
Betty Girl,
Yup, sorry about that. You were right about CAP 371 applying and I was wrong.
I had no deliberate intention to mislead, I simply believed, wrongly, that it only applied to those at the pointy end.
Aplogies
AO
Yup, sorry about that. You were right about CAP 371 applying and I was wrong.
I had no deliberate intention to mislead, I simply believed, wrongly, that it only applied to those at the pointy end.
Aplogies
AO
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What happened to the votes at the end of the meeting, or was that just last year?
The results, we are told , will be published on the BA website
British Airways - Investor Relations - Private Shareholders Home
details
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...xUeXBlPTM=&t=1
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BA/Iberia merger receives EU approval:
BA moves step closer to transatlantic deal with American Airlines and Iberia | Business | The Guardian
British Airways' three-way alliance cleared for takeoff | Mail Online
There are, at this moment, no major hurdles viewed in getting U.S. approval though I wonder what effect this will have on BA based Cabin Crew, etc.?
I've still much more reading to do regarding the merger before I'm going to feel well-informed though most analysts seem to view it as a very good thing for BA.
BA moves step closer to transatlantic deal with American Airlines and Iberia | Business | The Guardian
British Airways' three-way alliance cleared for takeoff | Mail Online
There are, at this moment, no major hurdles viewed in getting U.S. approval though I wonder what effect this will have on BA based Cabin Crew, etc.?
I've still much more reading to do regarding the merger before I'm going to feel well-informed though most analysts seem to view it as a very good thing for BA.
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If you want to know how badly BA needs this merger, consider Air France/KLM/Alitalia and the Lufthansa Group (Swiss, Austrian, Brussels Airlines, bmi – and effective control of SAS and others through Star). Iberia could jump into either of those camps and BA would then be completely isolated and marginalised.
I personally have been told by very senior people at BA haw amazed they were at the success of AF/KL, having been very sceptical about how two such different corporate cultures could be brought together.
I just wonder whether a BA a couple of years down the line, with its cost base sorted and decent profits coming in, would not have been a rather more senior partner in the merged entity.
I personally have been told by very senior people at BA haw amazed they were at the success of AF/KL, having been very sceptical about how two such different corporate cultures could be brought together.
I just wonder whether a BA a couple of years down the line, with its cost base sorted and decent profits coming in, would not have been a rather more senior partner in the merged entity.