BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sussex,UK
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another nonsense you will be familiar with on short haul is the refusal to treat a transit through Heathrow just like any other aiport and to require minimum layover times there which make it impossible to roster short haul aircraft, pilots and cabin crew to operate through it and stay together through the day's work. All 3 are rostered separately which results in massive disruption and cancellations once bad weather or whatever interrupts the schedules.The earlier in the day the problem occurs the greater the damage. The extended cabin crew LHR transist also mean that 4 sector days become impossible, thus generating more night stops=more crew=higher costs. One result is that other than as a feeder to long haul BA can not make money on nearly all of short haul despite the massive investment in aircraft etc it requires and would be well shot of it."Go" was probably the answer, failing which franchises which provided a BA branded operation at no cost to BA.
This sort of rostering practice hapens at LGW too, despite us having less restrictions. We can report for a 2 day 6 sector trip and throughout that trip change aircraft and flight crew 3 times. Ironically, the flight crew we start with are often also on a similiar 2 day 6 and we'll bump into them again as we all check out at the end of the trip. Why don't they keep us together? It's never made much sense to me but then again, very little about BA's scheduling system makes sense! (Sore subject at the moment as trying to adjust from my run of late and deep night flights that finished at 0720 yesterday to the 0605 report for a 2 day 6 starting tomorrow...
)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jetset lady:
Interesting post.
Is there a perceived benefit to the way BA is rostering now? Something I'm not seeing?
Good luck on readjustment. It must make life interesting at times.
Interesting post.
Is there a perceived benefit to the way BA is rostering now? Something I'm not seeing?
Good luck on readjustment. It must make life interesting at times.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skylion.
You are not correct in alot of what you say. As Jetset lady says the way cabin crew are rostered is alot do do with the fact that pilot rostering is done by a different department. Pilots use a different system of rostering, a bidline system, which in itself is very expensive and needs a high number of schedulers envolved but that is another matter. The two departments seem not to liase with each other as mentioned by Jetset lady. You would have to ask someone in schedualling why I would not want to guess the answer.
BA aircraft nightstop because it suits the schedual and because it would be impossible to park all the aircraft at LHR (as seen during the strike.) It has nothing to do with the way cabin crew are rostered or any agreements we have. Sometimes the union agreements are actually less restricting than the CAA scheme rules.
I really think it important for you to actually be sure of what you are saying and not make up stuff to suit the point you are trying to make.
You will loose any credibility you may have if you keep giving inacurate infomation out.
You are not correct in alot of what you say. As Jetset lady says the way cabin crew are rostered is alot do do with the fact that pilot rostering is done by a different department. Pilots use a different system of rostering, a bidline system, which in itself is very expensive and needs a high number of schedulers envolved but that is another matter. The two departments seem not to liase with each other as mentioned by Jetset lady. You would have to ask someone in schedualling why I would not want to guess the answer.
BA aircraft nightstop because it suits the schedual and because it would be impossible to park all the aircraft at LHR (as seen during the strike.) It has nothing to do with the way cabin crew are rostered or any agreements we have. Sometimes the union agreements are actually less restricting than the CAA scheme rules.
I really think it important for you to actually be sure of what you are saying and not make up stuff to suit the point you are trying to make.
You will loose any credibility you may have if you keep giving inacurate infomation out.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You will loose any credibility you may have if you keep giving inacurate infomation out.
When the discussions get a bit too...let's say "energetic" our Moderators have no problem reining the thread in.
We are customers, stockholders, etc., but not children and it is not beyond many of the participants capabilities to examine an issue and participate in reasoned exchanges.
As for this statement:
As Jetset lady says the way cabin crew are rostered is alot do do with the fact that pilot rostering is done by a different department.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Betty Girl: Whether you find what I have said to your liking or not I can assure you it is all accurate and should worry you as it is making BA uncompetitive from the costs, schedule/frequency(long haul to the Far East) and operational integrity point of view.On shorthaul for example, Easyjet, FlyBE and most , if not all, others roster the aircraft and both sets of crew together on the day although all 3 work different rosters and are just together for the day. The Easyjet normal crew pattern will be 4 sectors during the first part of the day for the first crew and a further 4 sectors by the aircraft for the second part of the with a new crew . Oh ,- and there won't be any early start or late finish payments either. On long haul there is no reason why BA should not operate westbound daylights ex Far East by introducing earlier departures eastbound to enable pre-midday departures on the return leg ex HKG, SIN in particular. They just choose not and not to increase frequencies, partly because of this service problem. As result CX are now 4 x daily on HKG and BA down from 3 to 2. A similar story exists in SIN where SQ now out perform BA on frequencies by operating daylights, ditto TG ex BKK. Sad but true.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skylion.
At no time have I meant for you to get upset with my correction of what you have said. It is just that I notice that some of the reasoning behind what you suggest is not accurate.
I am not going to guess as to why BA roster cabin crew and pilots differntly and by different departments but for you to suggest that you know why and to type it out on a forum and have people congratulate you for informing them so well, is a touch anoying when it is obvious to many that you are just guessing.
I was just merely explaining that your assertion that it is cabin crew agreements that cause aircraft to nightstop was incorrect as too was your reasoning that the union insist on bunk rest when it is the CAA. I can assure you that the reason BA operate the current schedual out of Hongkong has nothing to do with cabin crew agreements. It is either for commercial reasons or because those are the only slots they are allowed.
I am a loyal BA cabin crew member who worked throughout the strike and I am happy for our agreements to be altered and updated. You only however have to go on to other threads written by pilots to see that even some of them are unhappy about totally being rostered to the max that the CAA schemes allow. There is a current thread in 'terms of endearment' by easyjet pilots with alot of them complaining about their rosters, which is an airline that you chose to quote as a good example of rostering.
As mentioned by Jetset lady at LGW where it is possible to roster pilots and cabin crew the same it is still not done. But even I as BA employee do not know the reason for that.
At no time have I meant for you to get upset with my correction of what you have said. It is just that I notice that some of the reasoning behind what you suggest is not accurate.
I am not going to guess as to why BA roster cabin crew and pilots differntly and by different departments but for you to suggest that you know why and to type it out on a forum and have people congratulate you for informing them so well, is a touch anoying when it is obvious to many that you are just guessing.
I was just merely explaining that your assertion that it is cabin crew agreements that cause aircraft to nightstop was incorrect as too was your reasoning that the union insist on bunk rest when it is the CAA. I can assure you that the reason BA operate the current schedual out of Hongkong has nothing to do with cabin crew agreements. It is either for commercial reasons or because those are the only slots they are allowed.
I am a loyal BA cabin crew member who worked throughout the strike and I am happy for our agreements to be altered and updated. You only however have to go on to other threads written by pilots to see that even some of them are unhappy about totally being rostered to the max that the CAA schemes allow. There is a current thread in 'terms of endearment' by easyjet pilots with alot of them complaining about their rosters, which is an airline that you chose to quote as a good example of rostering.
As mentioned by Jetset lady at LGW where it is possible to roster pilots and cabin crew the same it is still not done. But even I as BA employee do not know the reason for that.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sussex,UK
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Diplome,
That's a really hard question and one you'll probably regret asking! I'll try to answer but this is only from my experience as crew, both in a charter airline that has operated a mixed flying programme for years and at BA, which has come to the party relatively recently. (I'm not included the earlier mixed fleet at LHR as they would have had different T&C's of which I know nothing about.) I also have no experience in flight ops or scheduling so there may be factors I know nothing about!
In my point of view, no. There may be initially as at LGW, they are certainly utilising the cabin crew to the max but it's all in a bit of a haphazard fashion. We jump around all over the place between earlies, lates and long haul. There's no rhythm, if that makes sense. We also jump around from aircraft to aircraft (bare in mind we are checked out on 3 types, with 7 variants. 737-400, A318, A319, A320, A321 and 777, 777 ER) We generally have 2 days off after long haul but can also do 6 days on short haul and only 1 day off on the end. The minimum days off in a month are 9, unless you take leave. Then the minimum days off will drop, depending on how many leave days you take. And finally, they also mix short haul and long haul in the same run. So like I say, in BA's eyes, it's great as we really are utilised to the full.
On the downside, we are tired. Very tired. And sickly too. The majority of crew are somewhere in the sickness policy process although I have managed to get out of it for now. We never get time to re-adjust. And because of the constant swapping around of flight and cabin crews, we rarely get to settle into a routine with a particular crew. I dread to think of the number of times that someone has asked me for the Captains name and I have had to shamefacedly reply, "Erm...Bob?...Fred?...George?...Chuck?...No, hang on I've got it. It's Susan!" That's awful but over a quick 2 day 6, that's the way it becomes. I know them but can't remember who's on what sector. And once we've figured out who the pilots are, we have to get to grips with what aircraft we're on. Over 7 sectors and 3 days, we can operate 737, 737, A319, 737, A319, A319, 777. It gets to the point that if another crew member asks for ice, you reply "No problem. It's over there...no it's not, it's down there...or up there...I don't know!
(We do make sure we know where the important stuff is on each flight. It's the little stuff that leave us scratching our heads!)
Luckily, as LGW is a small base and we obviously have all of the best pilots and cabin crew down here, it's not as bad as it could be!
I think what I'm trying to explain with that long, weary and unintended whinge fest is that while this type of rostering may pay off in the short term, in the long term, I feel they are burning us out. In my previous airline, we were worked hard but in a more structured way that gave as a chance to adjust to each change of routine. Then again, they'd had many years of practice to get it right and we had a union that knew when to stand strong and when to give a bit back.
With BA, it feels like they haven't thought through how some of the scheduling agreements actually work in practice. Sadly, here we don't have the sort of mature representation that will sit with management and have a sensible, constructive discussion on what is and what isn't working, so as far as the management are concerned, everything is tickety boo. How long we can carry on like this, I don't know.
Does that make any sense?
That's a really hard question and one you'll probably regret asking! I'll try to answer but this is only from my experience as crew, both in a charter airline that has operated a mixed flying programme for years and at BA, which has come to the party relatively recently. (I'm not included the earlier mixed fleet at LHR as they would have had different T&C's of which I know nothing about.) I also have no experience in flight ops or scheduling so there may be factors I know nothing about!
Is there a perceived benefit to the way BA is rostering now?
On the downside, we are tired. Very tired. And sickly too. The majority of crew are somewhere in the sickness policy process although I have managed to get out of it for now. We never get time to re-adjust. And because of the constant swapping around of flight and cabin crews, we rarely get to settle into a routine with a particular crew. I dread to think of the number of times that someone has asked me for the Captains name and I have had to shamefacedly reply, "Erm...Bob?...Fred?...George?...Chuck?...No, hang on I've got it. It's Susan!" That's awful but over a quick 2 day 6, that's the way it becomes. I know them but can't remember who's on what sector. And once we've figured out who the pilots are, we have to get to grips with what aircraft we're on. Over 7 sectors and 3 days, we can operate 737, 737, A319, 737, A319, A319, 777. It gets to the point that if another crew member asks for ice, you reply "No problem. It's over there...no it's not, it's down there...or up there...I don't know!
(We do make sure we know where the important stuff is on each flight. It's the little stuff that leave us scratching our heads!)Luckily, as LGW is a small base and we obviously have all of the best pilots and cabin crew down here, it's not as bad as it could be!
I think what I'm trying to explain with that long, weary and unintended whinge fest is that while this type of rostering may pay off in the short term, in the long term, I feel they are burning us out. In my previous airline, we were worked hard but in a more structured way that gave as a chance to adjust to each change of routine. Then again, they'd had many years of practice to get it right and we had a union that knew when to stand strong and when to give a bit back.
With BA, it feels like they haven't thought through how some of the scheduling agreements actually work in practice. Sadly, here we don't have the sort of mature representation that will sit with management and have a sensible, constructive discussion on what is and what isn't working, so as far as the management are concerned, everything is tickety boo. How long we can carry on like this, I don't know.
Does that make any sense?
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetset Lady:
Not at all. Certainly not when I have a member of Cabin Crew taking the time to truly explain to me what they are dealing with regarding rostering issues.
An interesting statement. I know of a CEO that closes each of his staff meetings when they have made changes in procedure with the statement "It's done and on paper...but paper doesn't bleed, our employees do"..and I mean EVERY meeting that involves changes to conditions or procedures. He happens to have a great relationship with his unions and his workforce because he understands that companies must be willing to be flexible and adjust when what looked great at the meeting isn't transferring in the real world.
Hopefully, when these troubles are resolved and BA truly takes control of their future we will see more of this approach.
As for being Gatwick crew, you must realize you have many loyal BA customers who are huge fans of not only how you conduct yourselves, but how you conduct your flights. Gatwick is truly becoming the "Watch us spoil you" brand in BA.
Thank you again for taking the time to respond to my question. Your engagement is truly appreciated.
That's a really hard question and one you'll probably regret asking!
With BA, it feels like they haven't thought through how some of the scheduling agreements actually work in practice. Sadly, here we don't have the sort of mature representation that will sit with management and have a sensible, constructive discussion on what is and what isn't working....
Hopefully, when these troubles are resolved and BA truly takes control of their future we will see more of this approach.
As for being Gatwick crew, you must realize you have many loyal BA customers who are huge fans of not only how you conduct yourselves, but how you conduct your flights. Gatwick is truly becoming the "Watch us spoil you" brand in BA.
Thank you again for taking the time to respond to my question. Your engagement is truly appreciated.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: maidenhead
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetset Lady.
Thank you also from me because that was a very good answer. Alot of people don't understand what the job entails and you have explained the rostering at LGW very well.
I seem to have managed to upset people for explaining why what they said was wrong or inaccurate and I apologise to anyone that was upset by my direct manner.
Thank you also from me because that was a very good answer. Alot of people don't understand what the job entails and you have explained the rostering at LGW very well.
I seem to have managed to upset people for explaining why what they said was wrong or inaccurate and I apologise to anyone that was upset by my direct manner.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Bucks
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetset Lady,
Can I echo Diplome's comments and say that your contribution is much appreciated. Your post does at least give some idea of the hard work that you put in and I have to say that I could not imagine doing that sort of job long-term as you would surely burn out!
But please tell me, do you think that is the plan? I have heard it say that one of BA's biggest mistakes was in trying to make a career out of what is essentially a short-term job that people do in order to travel and enjoy the perks but ultimately leave and settle down. BA have created a career structure out of it, wrongly thinking that this would engender loyalty and that experienced staff would provide better service. What has happened instead is that people who should have really moved on have then found that they are unable to earn anything like the money they earn as Senior Cabin Crew in BA. They therefore stay on in a job that they find they increasingly do not enjoy and therefore become disillusioned and the whole plan backfires.
Do you think there is any truth in this? And if so, does the new fleet make more sense in the long run? And certainly for we passengers, as I think the general view is that the Gatwick crew are altogether more pleasant and are generally streets ahead of the Heathrow crew in terms of customer service
I personally would prefer not to fly with people like Miss M and Ava Hannah (but then I think they now seem to have retreated to BASSA HQ or LA or whatever!!)
Anyway, many thanks once again for representing your views so well.
Can I echo Diplome's comments and say that your contribution is much appreciated. Your post does at least give some idea of the hard work that you put in and I have to say that I could not imagine doing that sort of job long-term as you would surely burn out!
But please tell me, do you think that is the plan? I have heard it say that one of BA's biggest mistakes was in trying to make a career out of what is essentially a short-term job that people do in order to travel and enjoy the perks but ultimately leave and settle down. BA have created a career structure out of it, wrongly thinking that this would engender loyalty and that experienced staff would provide better service. What has happened instead is that people who should have really moved on have then found that they are unable to earn anything like the money they earn as Senior Cabin Crew in BA. They therefore stay on in a job that they find they increasingly do not enjoy and therefore become disillusioned and the whole plan backfires.
Do you think there is any truth in this? And if so, does the new fleet make more sense in the long run? And certainly for we passengers, as I think the general view is that the Gatwick crew are altogether more pleasant and are generally streets ahead of the Heathrow crew in terms of customer service
I personally would prefer not to fly with people like Miss M and Ava Hannah (but then I think they now seem to have retreated to BASSA HQ or LA or whatever!!)
Anyway, many thanks once again for representing your views so well.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Betty girl:
Please don't feel as if you have "upset" anyone on this forum. Others will correct me if I'm misrepresenting the normal course of our exchanges here but we disagree from time to time, and will exchange links to information that we are basing our opinions on, learn from each other...but there is very little "upset" on this thread when it comes to discussing issues.
I might suggest that your statement..
might be qualified with an "In my opinion".
I believe most of us appreciate your visits to our thread and I don't believe you have truly "upset" anyone. They just may have a different opinion.
..and thank you for working through the strikes and advocating a more progressive BA. Well done.
Please don't feel as if you have "upset" anyone on this forum. Others will correct me if I'm misrepresenting the normal course of our exchanges here but we disagree from time to time, and will exchange links to information that we are basing our opinions on, learn from each other...but there is very little "upset" on this thread when it comes to discussing issues.
I might suggest that your statement..
I seem to have managed to upset people for explaining why what they said was wrong or inaccurate....
I believe most of us appreciate your visits to our thread and I don't believe you have truly "upset" anyone. They just may have a different opinion.
..and thank you for working through the strikes and advocating a more progressive BA. Well done.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sussex,UK
Posts: 469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the kind words regarding our base at LGW. We may be somewhat insignificant in the world of BA, (although I get the feeling that we've finally got ourselves noticed) and we certainly don't always get it right. I can think of numerous occasions when I have done or said something that still make me cringe! But the one thing you will find at LGW from top to bottom, left to right and throughout every department is a fierce sense of pride so to hear that the people that matter like flying with us is a huge boost!
Mocamp,
It's strange you should mention that. While watching my rubber ducks bobbing around in my pre bedtime bath, exactly the same thought crossed my mind. It'll be a shame if that is what they are intending, especially considering our already lower cost base. I think an airline needs a certain amount of "career" crew to pass on their experience and provide some stability and grounding to the ever enthusiastic, gap year Tiggers bouncing around the cabin! Good long term and short term crew compliment each other perfectly.
Mocamp,
It's strange you should mention that. While watching my rubber ducks bobbing around in my pre bedtime bath, exactly the same thought crossed my mind. It'll be a shame if that is what they are intending, especially considering our already lower cost base. I think an airline needs a certain amount of "career" crew to pass on their experience and provide some stability and grounding to the ever enthusiastic, gap year Tiggers bouncing around the cabin! Good long term and short term crew compliment each other perfectly.
Jetset Lady
Tiggers bouncing around the cabin
Sorry for the interruption to normal service. Now back to the thread...
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ever enthusiastic, gap year Tiggers bouncing around the cabin!
One of the interesting results of this recent "process" is that Gatwick Cabin Crew have made themselves heard and they have declared themselves as owning the BA brand for quality service.
As SLF it is interesting that you have serious customers and corporate groups that are taking the time to truly look at the difference in service between the two centers, and Heathrow, who have rather (in my opinion) been rather pompous in their approach to Gatwick, et al., are finding themselves viewed as lacking.
I do agree..a mature Cabin Crew resource is essential for BA to draw on as they bring in new talent. However, it must be a driven leadership, with focus on the positive of what BA offers, and not what negative message has been issued by a rather disjointed leadership.
As a stockholder and client I can tell you that I agree wholeheartedly with BA's decision to segregate their Mixed Fleet from Heathrow crew...but I can also state that I would not have the same opinion regarding Gatwick.
Please understand that I'm fully aware that there are an amazing amount of motivated individuals at Heathrow, but it is going to take some time to solve the problem of the dark cloud they are dealing with...sad that so few can smear so many.
Paxing All Over The World
Diplome I certainly hope that BA recovers but time, experience and history are against them. When I read further in the thread today:
Skylion
Then you know it's serious! I was unaware of the no meals in the middle because I have avoided BA on 10hr+ sectors for 20 years. I did a couple of NYCs in WT and one to JNB in WT+ and they were reasonable.
But I gave up on BA after the Dirty Tricks effort. They did not need to do that and I only use them as last choice. Which is a pity because they are a good airline. Again, it gives me no pleasure to say these things - but BA is in their last phase.
Skylion
BA's cabin crew rest periods are generally way above CAA requirements and are configured in such a way- ie occupying all but the first couple and last of hours of long haul flights,- that mid flight meals are not possible,notably in World Traveller.Too often "To Fly to Rest" seems to be the guiding principle, and what I say about the resultant difficulties with 12 hour plus daylight flights are as I describe.
But I gave up on BA after the Dirty Tricks effort. They did not need to do that and I only use them as last choice. Which is a pity because they are a good airline. Again, it gives me no pleasure to say these things - but BA is in their last phase.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Inside
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it amazing that anyone would feel a need to explain or defend their working arrangements and relationship with their employer to a group who, for whatever reason, feels it is their business to know, question, comment and pass judgement on what is in fact none of their business.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: N. Spain
Age: 79
Posts: 1,311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it amazing that anyone would feel a need to explain or defend their working arrangements and relationship with their employer to a group who, for whatever reason, feels it is their business to know, question, comment and pass judgement on what is in fact none of their business.
Heritage Cabin Crew feel guilty that they have killed off the London-Melbourne route
BA's most recent withdrawal from many Antipodean destinations (e.g. AKL, BNE, PER, and latterly MEL) started well over a decade ago...in part to a combination of poor aircraft utilisation if the flight was a terminator (the aircraft ends up sitting on the ground at destination for 8 hours plus due to LHR slots) or poor load factors if instead of sitting on the ground the flight shuttled onwards...certainly < 100 pax on a SYD-MEL shuttle was not unusual, not good use of a 747.
BTW there are those who think BA only reinstated MEL as a terminator for a few years because of the origins of the BA CEO at the time
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unite/BASSA will lobby BA shareholders today...though their use of the typical rhetoric will probably not help their pitch.
British Airways Union Asks Investors to Press Walsh for Deal - BusinessWeek
Matthew Carr (sp.?), described as a retired BA cabin crew member, was just on Sky News and could have done a better job of representing the Cabin Crew's issues. Using the term "Little Willy" did not do much for his credibility.
British Airways Union Asks Investors to Press Walsh for Deal - BusinessWeek
Matthew Carr (sp.?), described as a retired BA cabin crew member, was just on Sky News and could have done a better job of representing the Cabin Crew's issues. Using the term "Little Willy" did not do much for his credibility.