BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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Mariner9
We don't have to agree, but I do understand your posts and it is an excellent point about whether the voters believe their reps, on the return of ST and what that may mean to an individual and how they vote.
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I understand that and their would be an element of risk involved. But what have the people who have lost staff travel got to loose?
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I really don't see how the hate campaigns of BASSA [their little marches, funny masks, 'willie bullied me' slogans, chants, war cries, 'merchandise' and that odd man with the Willie as Hitler t-shirt - there is nothing like 'mob warfare...'] have achieved anything - except perhaps making their aims look ridiculous against their very sloppy approach to a expression of disagreement with a policy. Plus.. that grave divide between Walsh & Woodley seems very childish.
One cannot generalise all of the strikers' conditions, I am sure many would be in a hugely uncomfortable position and at least they have a sense of 'belonging' amongst their fellow pickets. But have they not generalised the BA management? Are they not bullying the crew who refuse to strike, or step in? What happens to the rest of the BA employment force, seemingly in the 'middle' of this? Why so much name calling?
One cannot generalise all of the strikers' conditions, I am sure many would be in a hugely uncomfortable position and at least they have a sense of 'belonging' amongst their fellow pickets. But have they not generalised the BA management? Are they not bullying the crew who refuse to strike, or step in? What happens to the rest of the BA employment force, seemingly in the 'middle' of this? Why so much name calling?
Last edited by missrubytuesday; 7th Jul 2010 at 11:47. Reason: spel.
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Litebulbs #426
But what have the people who have lost staff travel got to loose?
The serious answer is that this isn't just about the BA staff affected. The cost of such a case would add another million or so to Unite's legal bills in support of BA cabin crew. Why should the 2 million members who aren't affected be paying for all this? If BASSA wants a degree of autonomy within Unite, then shouldn't BASSA's costs be similarly ringfenced from the rest of the Union? From the outside looking in, BASSA appears to wield a lot of power within the Union, but with very limited responsibility. Unite and BA's interests with respect to BASSA look remarkably well aligned to me!
Also, Unite is now one of several Unions looking at very significant job losses in the public sector. Personally I think the 600k estimate of such losses is probably excessive, at least within the next 4-5 years. 300-400k looks very possible though. I don't know what proportion of affected workers will be Unite members, but even if it's only 10%, that suggests 30,000-40,000 members at risk, which puts the 2,000-3,000 BA staff at risk of nothing more than losing staff travel into some kind of perspective, even if such a loss results in some of them having to leave BA's employ.
Unite needs to get a grip on BASSA even more than BA does. I rather suspect that, given the choice, most Unite members will want to reserve £1 million to fight job losses/pension losses etc in the public sector, rather than campaiging to establish the fundamental human right to cheap fares for airline staff. What influence do the 2 million plus non-BASSA members of Unite have in determining how the Union's overall income is allocated and spent? How are you justifying the ongoing transfer of value from your members to BASSA via strike pay subsidies and legal fees etc? And are your members supportive of this transfer of wealth.
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The union has let its members down very badly indeed on the whole ST issue.
Not only should they have not promised that it would be returned “within 5 minutes” they should have actively advised those members who rely on ST to maintain their jobs (homes, marriages etc) to break the strike. As odd as that may seem it would have been the responsible thing for them to have done.
By all means they could have shouted to anyone that would listen about how members were being prevented from striking as a result, a position which I would have had to agree with to a point.
I still don’t support the principle of removing perks from strikers, it just seems wrong on many levels. I worry about more callus employers following the lead and converting all sorts of contractual rights into perks so as to allow their selective removal at the drop of a hat.
This is also the reason that I don’t think Unite would be wise to challenge it in court, a loss would legitimise the tactic.
Not only should they have not promised that it would be returned “within 5 minutes” they should have actively advised those members who rely on ST to maintain their jobs (homes, marriages etc) to break the strike. As odd as that may seem it would have been the responsible thing for them to have done.
By all means they could have shouted to anyone that would listen about how members were being prevented from striking as a result, a position which I would have had to agree with to a point.
I still don’t support the principle of removing perks from strikers, it just seems wrong on many levels. I worry about more callus employers following the lead and converting all sorts of contractual rights into perks so as to allow their selective removal at the drop of a hat.
This is also the reason that I don’t think Unite would be wise to challenge it in court, a loss would legitimise the tactic.
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JayPee28bpr
You are correct about what other Unite members must be thinking. It is OK pushing the moral argument about the rights and wrongs of BA's actions to attempt to stop a strike, but as you say, there are millions of other Unite members and a finite pot of cash.
I would imagine that the first time legal help was refused, then their would be some very disgruntled members and some
But, it is still is a major issue when you look at it as a principle, rather than an individual point. Well, I think it is, but what do I know.
I would imagine that the first time legal help was refused, then their would be some very disgruntled members and some
But, it is still is a major issue when you look at it as a principle, rather than an individual point. Well, I think it is, but what do I know.
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I agree that there is a risk, but if it is not challenged now, it will only be a matter of time until it is, as it will be seen as a "legitimate tactic".
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Well said, Jaypee.
I couldn't agree more. This strike looks utterly RIDICULOUS compared to the problems the rest of the country are facing. I keep asking myself why I continue to look at this forum because it only winds me up - a group of people living in their own little bubble and seemingly oblivious to what is going on around them. I wonder how many even bother to read what the passengers are thinking. You certainly don't seem to see many on this forum putting forward their viewpoint. It might be good to see if there are any BASSA sympathisers out there that even care about the passengers or the rest of the world outside of theirs.
Go on BASSA (Ava, Miss M et al) .....I dare you!! Let us know why any of us should have any sympathy at all!!
I couldn't agree more. This strike looks utterly RIDICULOUS compared to the problems the rest of the country are facing. I keep asking myself why I continue to look at this forum because it only winds me up - a group of people living in their own little bubble and seemingly oblivious to what is going on around them. I wonder how many even bother to read what the passengers are thinking. You certainly don't seem to see many on this forum putting forward their viewpoint. It might be good to see if there are any BASSA sympathisers out there that even care about the passengers or the rest of the world outside of theirs.
Go on BASSA (Ava, Miss M et al) .....I dare you!! Let us know why any of us should have any sympathy at all!!
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Litebulbs
But, it is still is a major issue when you look at it as a principle, rather than an individual point. Well, I think it is
I'll give you an example of what I think is a fundamental matter of principle worth pursuing either via industrial or legal action (or both). It's being reported today that the UK government is planning to amend the compensation (ie redundancy) terms offered to public sector workers likely to lose their jobs in the next few months. These terms are clearly defined and have been the basis of previous redundancies. Public sector workers would be aware of them as an implicit safety net in case their job disappears. Now, with large numbers of jobs at risk and potentially very large payments under the scheme, the government naturally wants to limit the cost. It is argued that redundancy terms offered to public sector workers are generous versus private sector practice, and the government says it is merely intending to align public and private sector practice.
That may very well be the case, but the fact still remains that the government is simply seeking to adjust public sector workers' terms and conditions and reduce the cost of eliminating jobs: a double whammy for affected workers who lose current income and receive a depleted "safety" payment. Compare that to the entire BA dispute, where BA imposed new conditions that averted the need for any compulsory redundancies but which engineered the cost saving they required merely by increasing productivity (whilst actually allowing many staff to get the lifestyle changes they wanted incidentally). The dispute now appears to centre solely on workers rights to discretionary perks.
So I ask you, Litebulbs: you have a £1 million strike pay and/or legal fees pot. Fighting to maintain the redundancy entitlements of public sector workers who have done nothing to harm their employer, or fighting to force BA to continue to allow strikers who have harmed their business by striking to continue to access what is agreed to be a discretionary perk. The former impacts at least 10x the number of your members compared to the latter. Which is the better use of your pot?
As I said before, Unite and BA's interests are actually totally aligned in respect of BASSA. Unite should now follow BA's lead and deal with the problem. Failure to do so simply disadvantages the wider Union membership.
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With regards to Ava Hannah on the other discussion thread, why do BA employ South Africans (I assume she is)? Surely BA would give preference to UK and EU nationals over other nationalities?
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Interesting posts, JayPee28bpr.
It is possible that Unite's lack of action on pursuing the staff travel issue through Europe is a strategic decision on their part. The issue of removing perks from striking workers is a significant unresolved point of law, and one which potentially affects every single union member in the country. As a composite union, Unite has many members who would be affected by the outcome of the court case, not just members of BASSA.
Very few people outside BASSA seem to view the current industrial action as objectively justified (i.e. whilst of course they have the right to strike, it seems a disproportionate reaction to the issues in dispute). As you have identified, the court would be required to balance the competing rights involved, and Unite may well therefore be waiting for a case where the balance is more in their favour before pursuing the point. If they then manage to get a favourable ruling in another case, it would put them in a stronger position to argue for the reinstatement of staff travel in the BASSA case. But, more importantly for Unite, it would mean that they had best served the interests of all of their membership rather than one small part.
It is possible that Unite's lack of action on pursuing the staff travel issue through Europe is a strategic decision on their part. The issue of removing perks from striking workers is a significant unresolved point of law, and one which potentially affects every single union member in the country. As a composite union, Unite has many members who would be affected by the outcome of the court case, not just members of BASSA.
Very few people outside BASSA seem to view the current industrial action as objectively justified (i.e. whilst of course they have the right to strike, it seems a disproportionate reaction to the issues in dispute). As you have identified, the court would be required to balance the competing rights involved, and Unite may well therefore be waiting for a case where the balance is more in their favour before pursuing the point. If they then manage to get a favourable ruling in another case, it would put them in a stronger position to argue for the reinstatement of staff travel in the BASSA case. But, more importantly for Unite, it would mean that they had best served the interests of all of their membership rather than one small part.
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At this time, there is a real dispute. What happens in the future is anyone's guess. Isn't the legal term in contemplation or furtherance of come to mind.
I would really like to be an observer at a branch meeting however.
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It is my understanding that the UK has no right to strike.
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Pohuto
I agree entirely. The problem, though, is that Unite/BASSA promised members that they'd get staff travel back "in 5 minutes". That's already stretched out to several months, and any legal challenge at the European level will take years. Given that there is an abundance of quotes in the public domain about how unimportant staff travel is to many strikers, then Unite/BASSA has virtually no chance of persuading a Court that a fundamental workers' right has been damaged to the extent that it should look to moderate BA's rights to utilise its assets as it sees fit.
I agree Unite may look for a better opportunity to fight a similar case. However, that then pushes out the legal fight to return staff travel indefinitely, which is even further away from the 5 minute timetable originally promised to their affected members. Again, it simply highlights to me the inability of Unite generally to control one dysfunctional branch. That would not matter if it were not for the fact that so much senior officer time and general Union income is being diverted to that one branch. It's difficult to see how this benefits the Union's membership generally.
I agree Unite may look for a better opportunity to fight a similar case. However, that then pushes out the legal fight to return staff travel indefinitely, which is even further away from the 5 minute timetable originally promised to their affected members. Again, it simply highlights to me the inability of Unite generally to control one dysfunctional branch. That would not matter if it were not for the fact that so much senior officer time and general Union income is being diverted to that one branch. It's difficult to see how this benefits the Union's membership generally.
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PHIONA. From reading AVA's previous posts, she has been employed by BA for 26 years, long before the job market in the industry became poor.
Personally, I have come to realise, through this and the cabin crew thread, that she [and many others] have simply been led down the garden path by their utterly useless union, and, therefore, I am beginning to have a little sympathy for the position she, and the others find themselves in. Although they are, ultimately responsible for their postion, very many questions must be asked of the Union about the lies that have been hoisted upon them by their representing body.
I implore all the strikers to not take part in any more IA, and then you may well find that conditions improve for you. Many of us on this thread feel that BA is part of us. I always love travelling with you, love the smile that I get on boarding, the chats at the back on long haul. Please let's all appreciate what we both have, passengers, and crew, and put this nastiness behind us, and return to the old days as much and as soon as we can. John.
Personally, I have come to realise, through this and the cabin crew thread, that she [and many others] have simply been led down the garden path by their utterly useless union, and, therefore, I am beginning to have a little sympathy for the position she, and the others find themselves in. Although they are, ultimately responsible for their postion, very many questions must be asked of the Union about the lies that have been hoisted upon them by their representing body.
I implore all the strikers to not take part in any more IA, and then you may well find that conditions improve for you. Many of us on this thread feel that BA is part of us. I always love travelling with you, love the smile that I get on boarding, the chats at the back on long haul. Please let's all appreciate what we both have, passengers, and crew, and put this nastiness behind us, and return to the old days as much and as soon as we can. John.
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Litebulbs
I would really like to be an observer at a branch meeting however.
My feeling is that senior officials of Unite are probably being asked to justify why BASSA is not being cut loose. If this is a step too far for organisations that still present a facade of sibling solidarity, then I'd be amazed if the leadership is not having to give assurances that the BASSA problem will be dealt with post-dispute. I'd love to be in on the meetings discussing this. My bet is that BASSA will be dismantled and integrated more closely into Unite's overall BA relationship. The public facade will be that this makes Unite stronger by more closely aligning all staff that it represents. Privately it will be to ensure that one very small group of members never, ever again causes such a colossal waste of money and senior officer time.
I think it is telling that BASSA members were somehow "forgotten" when it came to gauging support for the pension scheme changes at BA. All the other Unite-represented workgroups were consulted/balloted. BASSA members weren't apparently.
Folks. Please take a look at the post #790 by Juan Tugoh over on the Cabin Crew forum. I think it expressly very well what we all think and should be compulsory reading for all BASSA members.
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Interesting turn of events at BT where the CWU has withdrawn its strike ballot after legal warnings from BT. A case of a union heeding legal warnings or using this as a get-out in light of the current climate of hundreds of thousands of public sector job losses?
Union cancels BT strike ballot | Business | guardian.co.uk
Union cancels BT strike ballot | Business | guardian.co.uk
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JayPee
Why did Unites leadership spend so much time on Bassa?
Were they not made to look foolish,posturing with the mindless?
Methinks, Woodley, McCluskey, Barber et al have hardly presented an endorsement of intellectual modern unionism. Frankly I think they have illuminated their bankrupt idealism by identification with such a palpably ill defined cause.
The frustrating sad fact is the damage that can be inflicted by a misguided customer service minority that clearly has no conception nor willingness to comprehend their ultimate loyalties. Any company,so infected, are manifestly obliged to offload the disgruntled, sharpish, to ensure a future which is so dependent on qualities of service.
Why did Unites leadership spend so much time on Bassa?
Were they not made to look foolish,posturing with the mindless?
Methinks, Woodley, McCluskey, Barber et al have hardly presented an endorsement of intellectual modern unionism. Frankly I think they have illuminated their bankrupt idealism by identification with such a palpably ill defined cause.
The frustrating sad fact is the damage that can be inflicted by a misguided customer service minority that clearly has no conception nor willingness to comprehend their ultimate loyalties. Any company,so infected, are manifestly obliged to offload the disgruntled, sharpish, to ensure a future which is so dependent on qualities of service.