BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions
Saving face
A wise head many postings ago said that both sides in any industrial settlement must have been seen to have won something (I paraphrase). WW agreed (reluctantly) to an extension of the strike window so that Unite could ballot the membership. Although Unite said they could not recommend the offer, they would have saved face if the membership had accepted the deal.
As we know, that 'get out of jail' card was torpedoed by L McCluskey announcing the strike. Does anyone know if it is true that this was at BASSA's request?
The withdrawal of Staff travel makes it very difficult for Unite to agree any settlement. A nice compromise might have been - "Come back now and your ST is safe; stay out and lose it."
One has to feel sorry for some of the ordinary members of the union who have been conned into acting as cannon fodder by the sort of propaganda we have seen on TV and quoted in these forums.
As we know, that 'get out of jail' card was torpedoed by L McCluskey announcing the strike. Does anyone know if it is true that this was at BASSA's request?
The withdrawal of Staff travel makes it very difficult for Unite to agree any settlement. A nice compromise might have been - "Come back now and your ST is safe; stay out and lose it."
One has to feel sorry for some of the ordinary members of the union who have been conned into acting as cannon fodder by the sort of propaganda we have seen on TV and quoted in these forums.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Zulu Time Zone
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
academic expert's gaff
I found it noteworthy that - in light of the many comments on these pages pointing out that UNITE never accepted the now famous 'offer that WW refuses to put back on the table' - the 'academic experts' have quietly changed their letter from:
to:
A bit embarrassing considering how they bigged up their own expertise in these matters.
What other possible interpretation can there be for Willie Walsh rejecting Unite's acceptance of BA's previous offer
What other possible interpretation can there be for Willie Walsh tabling an inferior offer to BA's previous one
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the EU on a small Island
Age: 79
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because they are 'professors', and therefore very intelligent, and can therefore adjust their opinions in the light of evidence?
Shame they never considered the evidence beforehand. Still, they have achieved the objective, which is to cause further damage. Anyone else seeing a pattern of disseminating false information?
Shame they never considered the evidence beforehand. Still, they have achieved the objective, which is to cause further damage. Anyone else seeing a pattern of disseminating false information?
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even with the rewording as outlined above, it still sugests the denizens of acedemia lack a grasp of real world economics. Once the strike was called, BA's losses multiplied and consequently, as night follows day, any fresh offer had to cover those losses. In effect, Unite's decision to call the strike precipitated the inferior offer.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hardly an unbiased grouping of "experts".
With a tip of the hat to JetPack2, his post from the other board:
With a tip of the hat to JetPack2, his post from the other board:
I know it should be a dead thread, but out of interest I googled one of the academics and found a whole host of them listed in a union activist poster...
And the first one listed in the letter to the Guardian (Philip Taylor) is found in a newsletter describing how he was talking at discussions with Unite...
I haven't looked further since it's a pretty obvious pattern!
Quote from "Organise 2008" poster-
A conference organised by trade union organisers...
With in depth sessions on the organising approach from GMB, PCS, RMT, TGWU-Unite and TSSA
And labour movement academics including:
Andrew Barton, Christine Cooper, (University of Strathclyde), Ralph Darlington (Salford University), Mary Davis (Working Lives Research Institute), Matt Flynn (Middlesex University). Gregor Gall (University of Hertfordshire), Anne-Marie Green (University of Warwick), Kate Hardy (Queen Mary, University of London), Miguel Martinez Lucio (University of Manchester), Kim Moody, (University of Hertfordshire), Sian Moore (Working Lives Research Institute), Mel Simms (University of Warwick), John Stirling (University of Northumbria), Mark Stuart (University of Leeds) Phil Taylor (University of Strathclyde), Martin Upchurch (Middlesex University).
Also on Phil Taylor from the University of Strathclyde SBS newsletter:
Professor Phil Taylor gave a presentation in London on 29 September 2008 to trade union UNITE’s National Financial Sector Committee on the crisis in
the financial sector and its potential effects for employees. The talk prefaced an in-depth discussion of how the union might respond to the threats posed to employment and working conditions.
And the first one listed in the letter to the Guardian (Philip Taylor) is found in a newsletter describing how he was talking at discussions with Unite...
I haven't looked further since it's a pretty obvious pattern!
Quote from "Organise 2008" poster-
A conference organised by trade union organisers...
With in depth sessions on the organising approach from GMB, PCS, RMT, TGWU-Unite and TSSA
And labour movement academics including:
Andrew Barton, Christine Cooper, (University of Strathclyde), Ralph Darlington (Salford University), Mary Davis (Working Lives Research Institute), Matt Flynn (Middlesex University). Gregor Gall (University of Hertfordshire), Anne-Marie Green (University of Warwick), Kate Hardy (Queen Mary, University of London), Miguel Martinez Lucio (University of Manchester), Kim Moody, (University of Hertfordshire), Sian Moore (Working Lives Research Institute), Mel Simms (University of Warwick), John Stirling (University of Northumbria), Mark Stuart (University of Leeds) Phil Taylor (University of Strathclyde), Martin Upchurch (Middlesex University).
Also on Phil Taylor from the University of Strathclyde SBS newsletter:
Professor Phil Taylor gave a presentation in London on 29 September 2008 to trade union UNITE’s National Financial Sector Committee on the crisis in
the financial sector and its potential effects for employees. The talk prefaced an in-depth discussion of how the union might respond to the threats posed to employment and working conditions.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the EU on a small Island
Age: 79
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks, Diplome ... a useful cross-post for the banned and others.
For "academia" [usually used in the context of "intellectuals completely detached from reality"] please read "Hard-Core Socialists completely detached from reality".
For the record, I'm perfectly happy for people to hold opposing views to mine. I just really don't like people lying to me, or assuming I can't form my own opinions. I've been around far too long to accept either of those impositions [can I go on strike now?].
Even with the rewording as outlined above, it still sugests the denizens of acedemia lack a grasp of real world economics. Once the strike was called, BA's losses multiplied and consequently, as night follows day, any fresh offer had to cover those losses. In effect, Unite's decision to call the strike precipitated the inferior offer.
For the record, I'm perfectly happy for people to hold opposing views to mine. I just really don't like people lying to me, or assuming I can't form my own opinions. I've been around far too long to accept either of those impositions [can I go on strike now?].
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 82
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If its allowable - could I just reiterate my previous post ;
As professional academics, it is unlikely that they have ever held a normal job outside of academia, which potentially very much dilutes the value of any comments they make or opinions they hold of any situations in the world outside academia unless a full unbiased analysis is made of all aspects.
Whilst they lay claim to various areas of expertise in the field of employment relations in making an analysis, it is unfortunate that they display a total lack of such in their analysis of this particular dispute, in that they have obviously not taken into account any of the abortive attempts at negotiation during 2009, due to the unions refusal to have any meaningfull meetings and internal arguments. Neither have they apparently paid any attention to the courts judgement nor the details thereof or even read the proposals made by BA.
In their declaration of the current position, it is also apparent that they have not read the text of the statements and offers made by BA so far this year and, have totally ignored the unions responses and actions and the distorted and incorrect information that they gave out, which has led to this strike.
It is interesting to view the background and experience of the people whose names are appended to this letter as most - if not all - appear to have backgrounds associated with trade unions and union activity. An unbiased missive this is not and I would hope that any academics in these universities are cringing in horror at what is being said in the name of their establishments.
Propaganda is a two edged sword.
As professional academics, it is unlikely that they have ever held a normal job outside of academia, which potentially very much dilutes the value of any comments they make or opinions they hold of any situations in the world outside academia unless a full unbiased analysis is made of all aspects.
Whilst they lay claim to various areas of expertise in the field of employment relations in making an analysis, it is unfortunate that they display a total lack of such in their analysis of this particular dispute, in that they have obviously not taken into account any of the abortive attempts at negotiation during 2009, due to the unions refusal to have any meaningfull meetings and internal arguments. Neither have they apparently paid any attention to the courts judgement nor the details thereof or even read the proposals made by BA.
In their declaration of the current position, it is also apparent that they have not read the text of the statements and offers made by BA so far this year and, have totally ignored the unions responses and actions and the distorted and incorrect information that they gave out, which has led to this strike.
It is interesting to view the background and experience of the people whose names are appended to this letter as most - if not all - appear to have backgrounds associated with trade unions and union activity. An unbiased missive this is not and I would hope that any academics in these universities are cringing in horror at what is being said in the name of their establishments.
Propaganda is a two edged sword.
The Vision thing........
Where is the Vision for the BA CC???
If Bassa are misleading Crew, where is the strong, re-assuring Vision for their future? Where are the "guarantees" ?
Where are the middle managers who will LEAD the CC??
If the managers don't like some of the militants, why don't they just fire them?
Unless some of the above is sorted, once the strike is over, the problems will fester............and the crew will continue to follow Bassa, not the managers.
If Bassa are misleading Crew, where is the strong, re-assuring Vision for their future? Where are the "guarantees" ?
Where are the middle managers who will LEAD the CC??
If the managers don't like some of the militants, why don't they just fire them?
Unless some of the above is sorted, once the strike is over, the problems will fester............and the crew will continue to follow Bassa, not the managers.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the EU on a small Island
Age: 79
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
From the inevitable debris of this farcical IA will, IMO, arise a new and stronger BA. I will not compare WW with WSC, but they have the same clear focus on what needs to happen.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Scotland
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pax Retention
Much has been said on the two forums about the effect this dispute will have on BA's regular customers. IMHO opinion it will have a minimum impact providing the Company continues to give the value for money product that we have all come to expect.
Case in point, for my annual November break in Florida from EDI I always seem to finish up using BA. Last night I decided to check out all the opposition, and the reult ? BA won every way up!.
There were slightly better prices out there but always with a sting in the tail, indirect flights, long connection times etc.
So get this nonsense out of the way and start rebuilding customer trust; I don't want to fly with anyone else!
Case in point, for my annual November break in Florida from EDI I always seem to finish up using BA. Last night I decided to check out all the opposition, and the reult ? BA won every way up!.
There were slightly better prices out there but always with a sting in the tail, indirect flights, long connection times etc.
So get this nonsense out of the way and start rebuilding customer trust; I don't want to fly with anyone else!
Paxing All Over The World
PaddyMiguel
Nice one PM, BUT I would counter that - the CC are now the new petty bourgeoisie. After all, they have BMWs and the rest of the things that Marx did not envisage 'the workers' having!! They are remaining fearful about accepting change?
Nice one Paxboy but what Marx actually said was:
Quote:
It will be the workers, with their courage, resolution and self-sacrifice, who will be chiefly responsible for achieving victory. The petty bourgeoisie will hesitate as long as possible and remain fearful, irresolute and inactive..... ... the rule of the bourgeois democrats, from the very first, will carry within it the seeds of its own destruction, and its subsequent displacement by the proletariat will be made considerably easier...
Quote:
It will be the workers, with their courage, resolution and self-sacrifice, who will be chiefly responsible for achieving victory. The petty bourgeoisie will hesitate as long as possible and remain fearful, irresolute and inactive..... ... the rule of the bourgeois democrats, from the very first, will carry within it the seeds of its own destruction, and its subsequent displacement by the proletariat will be made considerably easier...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This dispute seems to be about a difference of opinion between the management who have a duty to the shareholders to run the company profitably and the unions whose responibility is the welfare of their members.
It would seem that, from a huge majority in favour of (the threat) of strike action, it is a small minority that are willing to make the sacrifice to support the strike. Ww must threfore conclude that the majority of the cc are actually willing to work on his terms- albeit reluctantly. The union have used their sanction with little success as it would seem the prospect of escalating action would only serve to alienate support from customers and result in more staff losing valuable travel perks.
As regards face saving, BA could agree to restore travel perks for strikers if the union were to reach an agreement. However, I can't see what Unite have to offer? BA have made it clear further strike action is undesirable but the econo
impact does not seem to be significant for a company that has sustained massive losses before and who were beginning to return to profitability.
One question - why are all the labour party supporting unions now embarking on strike action in the last few weeks of a labour govt. Is this a cynical attempt to show that we need more of the gloomy G - I hope not.
Unfair , I know, but I suspect that BA would be better sacking the strikers and negotiating a compromise deal with those that want to carry on. As I said this would be unfair but otherwise I think the company will be left with a legacy of strikers and non strikers.
It would seem that, from a huge majority in favour of (the threat) of strike action, it is a small minority that are willing to make the sacrifice to support the strike. Ww must threfore conclude that the majority of the cc are actually willing to work on his terms- albeit reluctantly. The union have used their sanction with little success as it would seem the prospect of escalating action would only serve to alienate support from customers and result in more staff losing valuable travel perks.
As regards face saving, BA could agree to restore travel perks for strikers if the union were to reach an agreement. However, I can't see what Unite have to offer? BA have made it clear further strike action is undesirable but the econo
impact does not seem to be significant for a company that has sustained massive losses before and who were beginning to return to profitability.
One question - why are all the labour party supporting unions now embarking on strike action in the last few weeks of a labour govt. Is this a cynical attempt to show that we need more of the gloomy G - I hope not.
Unfair , I know, but I suspect that BA would be better sacking the strikers and negotiating a compromise deal with those that want to carry on. As I said this would be unfair but otherwise I think the company will be left with a legacy of strikers and non strikers.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the EU on a small Island
Age: 79
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sharp post, PAXboy ...
Professionals ... CC are not according to Wiki
So perhaps they are the 'bourgeoisie' these days?
Another Wiki
Ahhh ... are they 'working class'?
Last Wiki
The sadness of all of this farce is 'perception'.
One upon a distant, CC were there to provide a service to the higher social class who could actually afford to buy an air ticket. They were, dare I say it, flying waitresses. As time went on, safety aspects were introduced, and salaries were increased. The BOAC steward[ess] acquired some form of status [self-perceived?].
They moved from being 'working class' to 'bourgeoisie', seamlessly and with a perception of a higher status in society, reinforced by ever-higher salaries, allowances, and benefits. But perhaps they never forgot their roots.
"Petty bourgeoisie" sums it up perfectly. I have absolutely NO quarrel with the perception of what CC do, and the vast majority do it well. They lie on the borders of 'definitions' - at one hand vital safety components, at another simply servants of the travelling public. Sadly, over the last few decades, self-importance in some quarters has overtaken the reality of what is actually involved in the daily task.
Professionals ... CC are not according to Wiki
A professional is a member of a vocation founded upon specialised educational training.
The word professional traditionally means a person who has obtained a degree in a professional field. The term professional is used more generally to denote a white collar working person, or a person who performs commercially in a field typically reserved for hobbyists or amateurs.
The word professional traditionally means a person who has obtained a degree in a professional field. The term professional is used more generally to denote a white collar working person, or a person who performs commercially in a field typically reserved for hobbyists or amateurs.
Another Wiki
Marxism defines the bourgeoisie as the social class that owns the means of production in a capitalist society. Marxism views the group as emerging from the wealthy urban classes in pre- and early capitalist societies.
Last Wiki
Working class is a term used in academic sociology and in ordinary conversation to describe those employed in lower tier jobs, as measured by skill, education and lower incomes.
One upon a distant, CC were there to provide a service to the higher social class who could actually afford to buy an air ticket. They were, dare I say it, flying waitresses. As time went on, safety aspects were introduced, and salaries were increased. The BOAC steward[ess] acquired some form of status [self-perceived?].
They moved from being 'working class' to 'bourgeoisie', seamlessly and with a perception of a higher status in society, reinforced by ever-higher salaries, allowances, and benefits. But perhaps they never forgot their roots.
"Petty bourgeoisie" sums it up perfectly. I have absolutely NO quarrel with the perception of what CC do, and the vast majority do it well. They lie on the borders of 'definitions' - at one hand vital safety components, at another simply servants of the travelling public. Sadly, over the last few decades, self-importance in some quarters has overtaken the reality of what is actually involved in the daily task.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BOAC Stewardesses
The BOAC steward[ess] acquired some form of status [self-perceived?]. They moved from being 'working class' to 'bourgeoisie', seamlessly and with a perception of a higher status in society, reinforced by ever-higher salaries, allowances, and benefits. But perhaps they never forgot their roots.
A Runyonesque Character
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The South of France ... Not
Age: 74
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Two-Tone-Blue: One upon a distant, CC were there to provide a service to the higher social class who could actually afford to buy an air ticket. They were, dare I say it, flying waitresses. As time went on, safety aspects were introduced, and salaries were increased. The BOAC steward[ess] acquired some form of status [self-perceived?].
They moved from being 'working class' to 'bourgeoisie', seamlessly and with a perception of a higher status in society, reinforced by ever-higher salaries, allowances, and benefits. But perhaps they never forgot their roots.
They moved from being 'working class' to 'bourgeoisie', seamlessly and with a perception of a higher status in society, reinforced by ever-higher salaries, allowances, and benefits. But perhaps they never forgot their roots.
I spent a year, 40 years ago; on the BOAC check-in desks where many of them ended up when (relatively young) age or marriage grounded them. They were fabulous company.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SALISBURY
Age: 76
Posts: 706
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The SSK
They were fabulous company.
What a girl & still wearing a pair of fantastic pins!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South East
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reminder
Can someone please remind these people who are trying to destroy a Great British company that they do not fly the aircraft but meerly "wait on" and therfore do not deserve a fraction of what they already get never mind what they have been offered. A reality check comes to mind!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kirkcaldy
Age: 76
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not fly 100%
I appologise for the long words, but I can not find a glossary for the abbreviations used
Why does BA not fly 100% flights this weekend?
We are constantly reading that 60% scheduled last weekend and all the Volunteer Cabin Crew were stood down and sent to hotels as enough staff had turned up to crew the planned flights
Then why not make it 100% flights manned by 60% cabin crew and 40% of the Volunteer Cabin Crew
Job done
Jack is there a glossary McHammocklashing
Why does BA not fly 100% flights this weekend?
We are constantly reading that 60% scheduled last weekend and all the Volunteer Cabin Crew were stood down and sent to hotels as enough staff had turned up to crew the planned flights
Then why not make it 100% flights manned by 60% cabin crew and 40% of the Volunteer Cabin Crew
Job done
Jack is there a glossary McHammocklashing