Are male passengers perverts?
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Are male passengers perverts?
From today's Mailonline:
Businessman sues BA 'for treating men like perverts'
By Sophie Borland
Last updated at 9:14 AM on 16th January 2010
Mirko Fischer claims BA brand all men as potential sex offenders
A businessman is suing British Airways over a policy that bans male passengers from sitting next to children they don't know - even if the child's parents are on the same flight.
Mirko Fischer has accused the airline of branding all men as potential sex offenders and says innocent travellers are being publicly humiliated.
In line with the policy, BA cabin crew patrol the aisles before take-off checking that youngsters travelling on their own or in a different row from their parents are not next to a male stranger.
If they find a man next to a child or teenager they will ask him to move to a different seat. The aircraft will not take off unless the passenger obeys.
Mr Fischer, a 33-year-old hedge fund manager, became aware of the policy while he was flying from Gatwick with his wife Stephanie, 30.
His wife, who was six months pregnant, had booked a window seat which she thought would be more spacious. Mr Fischer was in the middle seat between her and a 12-year-old boy.
Shortly after all passengers had sat down, having stowed their bags in the overhead lockers, a male steward asked Mr Fischer to change his seat.
Mr Fischer refused, explaining that his wife was pregnant, at which point the steward raised his voice, causing several passengers to turn round in alarm. He warned that the aircraft could not take off unless Mr Fischer obeyed.
Mr Fischer eventually moved seats but felt so humiliated by his treatment that he is taking the airline to court on the grounds of sex discrimination-He is paying all his own legal
If he wins at the hearing next month at Slough County Court, BA will have to change its policy.
By Sophie Borland
Last updated at 9:14 AM on 16th January 2010
Mirko Fischer claims BA brand all men as potential sex offendersA businessman is suing British Airways over a policy that bans male passengers from sitting next to children they don't know - even if the child's parents are on the same flight.
Mirko Fischer has accused the airline of branding all men as potential sex offenders and says innocent travellers are being publicly humiliated.
In line with the policy, BA cabin crew patrol the aisles before take-off checking that youngsters travelling on their own or in a different row from their parents are not next to a male stranger.
If they find a man next to a child or teenager they will ask him to move to a different seat. The aircraft will not take off unless the passenger obeys.
Mr Fischer, a 33-year-old hedge fund manager, became aware of the policy while he was flying from Gatwick with his wife Stephanie, 30.
His wife, who was six months pregnant, had booked a window seat which she thought would be more spacious. Mr Fischer was in the middle seat between her and a 12-year-old boy.
Shortly after all passengers had sat down, having stowed their bags in the overhead lockers, a male steward asked Mr Fischer to change his seat.
Mr Fischer refused, explaining that his wife was pregnant, at which point the steward raised his voice, causing several passengers to turn round in alarm. He warned that the aircraft could not take off unless Mr Fischer obeyed.
Mr Fischer eventually moved seats but felt so humiliated by his treatment that he is taking the airline to court on the grounds of sex discrimination-He is paying all his own legal
If he wins at the hearing next month at Slough County Court, BA will have to change its policy.
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It seems to me that the most obvious course of action in this case would have been to move the 12 year old boy as I assume it was not Mr Fischer who allocated the seats in the first place.
The solution is simple. Cage the little buggers and put them in the hold. They'll be safe from perverts and the pax will be able to travel in peace and quiet.
I'm joking of course
In all seriousness he has a valid point. I seem to recall reading a couple of articles recently involving female perverts.
I'm joking of courseIn all seriousness he has a valid point. I seem to recall reading a couple of articles recently involving female perverts.
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Difficult to comment with authority, as I was not there, but the description of the incident does not make the BA steward look particularly good at customer relations.
For example, the wife could have taken the middle seat. or the boy could have been moved.
Then again, there are two sides to a story.
Had this happened to me, I would have declined to move; if the plane misses it's slot, blame the airline for not having the gumption to implement it's own policy when allocating seats.
I had a 10 year old boy (UM) next to me on Air Malta last year, no problems. Air Malta placed him in 1D, where the crew could keep a close eye on him.
I was totally kn@ckered from playing board and card games by the time we arrived at Heathrow. A very charming and enthusiastic lad, whom it was a pleasure to sit next to.
For example, the wife could have taken the middle seat. or the boy could have been moved.
Then again, there are two sides to a story.
Had this happened to me, I would have declined to move; if the plane misses it's slot, blame the airline for not having the gumption to implement it's own policy when allocating seats.
I had a 10 year old boy (UM) next to me on Air Malta last year, no problems. Air Malta placed him in 1D, where the crew could keep a close eye on him.
I was totally kn@ckered from playing board and card games by the time we arrived at Heathrow. A very charming and enthusiastic lad, whom it was a pleasure to sit next to.
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The usual standards of reporting apply. This rule, whatever your opinion on it, only applies in the case of unaccompanied minors and is as much for the protection of the male passenger as it is the child. I also think I'm correct in saying that it has been argued out many times in the past on PPrune. I wonder if this gentleman's stance would change, if it was his child that was travelling unaccompanied? As to how the steward dealt with it, that I can't comment on, having not been there. But there are definitely right and wrong ways of handling this highly awkward situation.
TSR2,
There are particular rows allocated to UM's, chosen specifically for their proximity to the galley and the crew.
F3G,
From what I read of the story, the wife refused to sit in the centre as she was pregnant and, apparently, gets more room in the window seat. Not quite sure how that works!
TSR2,
There are particular rows allocated to UM's, chosen specifically for their proximity to the galley and the crew.
F3G,
From what I read of the story, the wife refused to sit in the centre as she was pregnant and, apparently, gets more room in the window seat. Not quite sure how that works!
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This is, once again, a story about Bullying Britain, the Nanny State, which deprives the freedom of thinking from peope so that they will ultimately beome unable to do so.
I hope Mr. Fischer wins, resoundingly. This gives me yet another reason to avoid BA.
Women can be 'perverts' too, so for a start BA's policy is sexist, unless they change it to apply to adults of either sex, in which case it becomes almost unenforceable and certainly impractical.
I've been seated next to children, I've asked the parents if they are happy with that or wanted to change around, I've never had a problem with that and often happily chatted with the kids, who've always taken great delight in showing me how to use the IFE, which is far too complex for me!
I hope Mr. Fischer wins, resoundingly. This gives me yet another reason to avoid BA.
Women can be 'perverts' too, so for a start BA's policy is sexist, unless they change it to apply to adults of either sex, in which case it becomes almost unenforceable and certainly impractical.
I've been seated next to children, I've asked the parents if they are happy with that or wanted to change around, I've never had a problem with that and often happily chatted with the kids, who've always taken great delight in showing me how to use the IFE, which is far too complex for me!
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Well there is obviously an elemant of power abusing in the case of the Cabin crew member. A total lack of diplomacy skills is very much apparent and I reckon this lawsuit has more to do with that then the actual rule.
The thing is, I was always under the impression that this rule was only brought in by BA as a result of some wider european law or industry standard practice. We had the exact same rule in Aer Lingus and even Qatar Airways when I was with both of those.
Now I know kids are not always a precious as they come across. I was actually working a flight where we had a very demanding and down right rude UM travelling with us who even threatened to accuse the female crew member looking after her of "abuse" if she didnt get what she want (A seat up in Club is what she wanted...can you believe that from a 9 year old?). Needless to say we had that little madam brought down a peg or two very quickly but to any men sitting next to a UM....Just be very bloody careful about what you do or say when sitting next to a kid. These rules are as much about your protection as they are the kids.
However I do agree that kids are at just as much risk from female passengers. We just have to look at the recent news stories in the UK to know that!
The thing is, I was always under the impression that this rule was only brought in by BA as a result of some wider european law or industry standard practice. We had the exact same rule in Aer Lingus and even Qatar Airways when I was with both of those.
Now I know kids are not always a precious as they come across. I was actually working a flight where we had a very demanding and down right rude UM travelling with us who even threatened to accuse the female crew member looking after her of "abuse" if she didnt get what she want (A seat up in Club is what she wanted...can you believe that from a 9 year old?). Needless to say we had that little madam brought down a peg or two very quickly but to any men sitting next to a UM....Just be very bloody careful about what you do or say when sitting next to a kid. These rules are as much about your protection as they are the kids.
However I do agree that kids are at just as much risk from female passengers. We just have to look at the recent news stories in the UK to know that!
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Capetonian suggests this is down to Bullying Britain, yet then states that if he is sat next to children, he will ask the parents if they are OK with that? Why ask, if it's not an issue? With UM's, there are no parents to ask.
As it happens, I complete agree with most posters. Females can present as much of a risk as males, but we are dealing with perception and predudice.
Imagine Susie, aged 8, is on her first ever flight alone. Shortly after take off, Susie gets a little upset. The crew are in the middle of service, so the passenger next to her tries to make her feel better by, maybe putting an arm round her shoulder, or giving her a hug. Nothing sinister in that at all. It's what most caring adults would do. By the time the service is complete, Susie is feeling much better and chatting away, ten to the dozen, to the passenger.
The flight lands and Susie can't wait to tell her Mummy all about it. "I was upset and this lady put an arm round me and gave me a cuddle", she says. The Mother will probably think, how nice of the lady to help her daughter out. But.....how about if Susie says, "I was upset and this man put his arm around me and gave me a cuddle". The chances are that in many cases, the Mother, possibly already feeling guilty about sending their precious child on a flight on their own, is going to have a slightly different reaction. Yes, it's wrong and highly unfair, but we appear to have been preconditioned to think that way. Before you know it, some poor gent that has done absolutely nothing wrong, is being questioned.
And that is the most innocent of scenarios. As Paddy has already said, not all children are sweetness and light. Some are extremely manipulative and they know just how to work the system. That's why I say, it's as much to protect the passenger as it is the child. It's not ideal, but right now, it's all we have to work with.
Does that make any sense?
As it happens, I complete agree with most posters. Females can present as much of a risk as males, but we are dealing with perception and predudice.
Imagine Susie, aged 8, is on her first ever flight alone. Shortly after take off, Susie gets a little upset. The crew are in the middle of service, so the passenger next to her tries to make her feel better by, maybe putting an arm round her shoulder, or giving her a hug. Nothing sinister in that at all. It's what most caring adults would do. By the time the service is complete, Susie is feeling much better and chatting away, ten to the dozen, to the passenger.
The flight lands and Susie can't wait to tell her Mummy all about it. "I was upset and this lady put an arm round me and gave me a cuddle", she says. The Mother will probably think, how nice of the lady to help her daughter out. But.....how about if Susie says, "I was upset and this man put his arm around me and gave me a cuddle". The chances are that in many cases, the Mother, possibly already feeling guilty about sending their precious child on a flight on their own, is going to have a slightly different reaction. Yes, it's wrong and highly unfair, but we appear to have been preconditioned to think that way. Before you know it, some poor gent that has done absolutely nothing wrong, is being questioned.
And that is the most innocent of scenarios. As Paddy has already said, not all children are sweetness and light. Some are extremely manipulative and they know just how to work the system. That's why I say, it's as much to protect the passenger as it is the child. It's not ideal, but right now, it's all we have to work with.
Does that make any sense?
Last edited by jetset lady; 16th Jan 2010 at 11:48.
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Capetonian suggests this is down to Bullying Britain, yet then states that if he is sat next to children, he will ask the parents if they are OK with that? Why ask, if it's not an issue?
The rest of your comments make sense but the above doesn't.
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You missed my point, Capetonian. Yes, it is indeed common courtesy and I'm not arguing that, but I'm asking if would you feel the need to ask parents if they mind you sitting next to their children, if you were female?
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Further to Jetset lady, the accusation will most likely come from the Daily Mail.
Simple over reaction by both sides not being helped by the Daily Mail. Why not ask to speak with the CSD, or write to BA direct.
It is my belief that this is not about the rights or wrongs of this policy but about money.
Simple over reaction by both sides not being helped by the Daily Mail. Why not ask to speak with the CSD, or write to BA direct.
It is my belief that this is not about the rights or wrongs of this policy but about money.
Last edited by Jarvy; 16th Jan 2010 at 16:50.
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but I'm asking if would you feel the need to ask parents if they mind you sitting next to their children, if you were female?
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repeated from Cabin Crew thread on same subject - same thing happened to me best part of 8 years ago now - as I have been in the industry a fair time and used to travel a lot on ID tickets I was often asked if I would mind sitting next to an unaccompanied minor by the cabin crew just to make sure they were ok, not scared, sick etc...of course the cabin crew would also be coming by and doing their job to do the same
then I travelled on a US airline with a pre-reserved seat and the next seat was to be taken by a UM, I was asked/told very abruptly by cabin crew I should change seats as I was a single male next to an unaccompanied minor and that was against recent company policy...I explained I was airline staff and was quite happy with the scenario...but no
Yes I took offense 'single male = pervert' and refused to move and told them that was their issue/problem and that I had a pre-reserved seat and wasnt shifting, I suggested they 'shift' the kid...(and if they didnt like it they could off load me and my baggage delaying their flight...followed up by one hell of a PR nightmare/offensive by me on my return home...come on make my day!) - they shifted the kid...
At the time I and other passengers took great offense at that policy, its' insinuation and ramifications
Well done Mr. Fischer
then I travelled on a US airline with a pre-reserved seat and the next seat was to be taken by a UM, I was asked/told very abruptly by cabin crew I should change seats as I was a single male next to an unaccompanied minor and that was against recent company policy...I explained I was airline staff and was quite happy with the scenario...but no
Yes I took offense 'single male = pervert' and refused to move and told them that was their issue/problem and that I had a pre-reserved seat and wasnt shifting, I suggested they 'shift' the kid...(and if they didnt like it they could off load me and my baggage delaying their flight...followed up by one hell of a PR nightmare/offensive by me on my return home...come on make my day!) - they shifted the kid...
At the time I and other passengers took great offense at that policy, its' insinuation and ramifications
Well done Mr. Fischer
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Originally Posted by Capetonian
Sorry if I missed your point then, but the answer to your question is yes, I would. I would try to reseat so that the parents and children were as close to each other as possible. I just asked my wife and she said she would do the same automatically, and indeed we've done it when the situation has arisen.
Originally Posted by Capetonian
Of course some parents prefer not to sit next to their own children!
I have had this argument with a represenetative from BA who was auditing us as the Handling Agent and had found that we had committed a heinous crime by seating a UM next to a male passenger. Like others I was astounded that such a blanket rule can be brought in to cover ALL male passengers as potential kiddy fiddlers.
It is bl
dy nonsense and there is no justification for such a blanket ban. I have been vetted by the police and cleared as safe and suitable to coach youngsters at cricket, but this would not matter to BA, oh no, to them I am a male and therefore unable to control myself to behave decently and therefore a potential kiddy fiddler.
I hope he wins his law case. He felt embarrassed and insulted by the loud actions of the cabin crew member. Change the regs BA.
It is bl
dy nonsense and there is no justification for such a blanket ban. I have been vetted by the police and cleared as safe and suitable to coach youngsters at cricket, but this would not matter to BA, oh no, to them I am a male and therefore unable to control myself to behave decently and therefore a potential kiddy fiddler.I hope he wins his law case. He felt embarrassed and insulted by the loud actions of the cabin crew member. Change the regs BA.
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I have had this argument with a represenetative from BA who was auditing us as the Handling Agent and had found that we had committed a heinous crime by seating a UM next to a male passenger. Like others I was astounded that such a blanket rule can be brought in to cover ALL male passengers as potential kiddy fiddlers.
It is bldy nonsense and there is no justification for such a blanket ban. I have been vetted by the police and cleared as safe and suitable to coach youngsters at cricket, but this would not matter to BA, oh no, to them I am a male and therefore unable to control myself to behave decently and therefore a potential kiddy fiddler.
I hope he wins his law case. He felt embarrassed and insulted by the loud actions of the cabin crew member. Change the regs BA.
It is bldy nonsense and there is no justification for such a blanket ban. I have been vetted by the police and cleared as safe and suitable to coach youngsters at cricket, but this would not matter to BA, oh no, to them I am a male and therefore unable to control myself to behave decently and therefore a potential kiddy fiddler.
I hope he wins his law case. He felt embarrassed and insulted by the loud actions of the cabin crew member. Change the regs BA.
As a handling agent who are you to question (argue or debate) YOUR CLIENTS rules and regulations? you are getting paid by this company to do things as they want it done and by failing to do so you are simply passing the buck to the cabin crew and that is how these very examples occur! Lets not forget the highly unprofessional path you are taking your company down.
Also as a handling agent you should be aware that this is not BA rule, the vast majority of airlines impose such rules including all members of the Oneworld Alliance, Star Alliance and Skyteam (I have also worked for Qatar Airways in the past and they had the rule), correct me if I am wrong but I believe this rule has its roots in the US where even sneezing in the direction of someone can have you in court for attempted manslaughter!
Also, you may have undergone a security check to ensure you are not a kiddy fiddler but the airline cant prove that, its not like you carry these certicates prooving you are not a paedophile with you and anyways, just cos someone has never been caught doing something does not mean they dont!
At the end of the day airlines are taking huge gambles in accepting the carraige of children unaccompanied. We have already seen countless times in the past stories in the press of children being lost in airports by airlines, crews being sued by parents for administering first aid medication to sick kids etc etc. This is just another little rule (and lets face, in the grand scheme of things its no big deal and although "offensive" any reasonable person should understand why it is in place if explained as such) that the airlines have agreed to in order minimise their exposure to prosecution and I personally think this man sueing the company should not be allowed win any kind of monetary compensation simply because his problem seems to be with the crew member and not the rule itself and he is effectly getting on a high horse to make a point!
Yes the rule needs to change but apart from the idiot crew member involved I dont really see why BA is getting all the stick!
Last edited by apaddyinuk; 16th Jan 2010 at 14:46.
Paddy don't get all ar$$ey about something you weren't anything to do with. My discussion with the BA auditor was about the inference of the rule, not whether we would comply. As you correctly point out as a Handling Agent we do as we are bid unless it is in contravention of the law.
Most airlines allow discussion though as they recognise that some people in handling agents have also worked for airlines and are well qualified to make comment. You it seems, from your tone, think Handling Agents are all idiots.
Just because something is in the rule book doesn't make it right. Unquestioning compliance can be as dangerous as non compliance.
I have over 30 years in avaition and I can think of only one occassion where an Unmin was lost for a short while.
If a successful law suit against BA changes things to a more sensible solution then let it go ahead.
Most airlines allow discussion though as they recognise that some people in handling agents have also worked for airlines and are well qualified to make comment. You it seems, from your tone, think Handling Agents are all idiots.
Just because something is in the rule book doesn't make it right. Unquestioning compliance can be as dangerous as non compliance.
I have over 30 years in avaition and I can think of only one occassion where an Unmin was lost for a short while.
If a successful law suit against BA changes things to a more sensible solution then let it go ahead.