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UK Government Taxation to Deter Air Travel.

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UK Government Taxation to Deter Air Travel.

Old 11th Sep 2009, 16:34
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
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But it's notable that the tone of that article and others related is that people are skeptical because they don't really understand the issue with the implication that they need to be convinced that man made climate change is real. Typically the BBC website ignores the elephant in the room. The simple fact that more and more people don't believe in it could be something to do with the fact that most people have worked out that the theory is not such a clear cut 'fact' and the reality that true or not, it's being used as an excuse to pile even more taxes on them, not to mention further curtailing their freedom of choice.

What's the saying, 'You can fool all of the people some of the time...........'
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Old 11th Sep 2009, 18:50
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Theres those of us who know the GW theory is rubbish and theres those who think its a religion and get a fuzzy feeling about being 'green', and neither will get close to agreement. I wish I was going to be around to see who was right!
Alternatively, there's those who accept the reality of climate change and the need for the human race to reverse or halt it, regardless of its cause, and there's those who, in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence, refuse to believe it and seemingly get a fuzzy feeling about being a "denyer".

However, I learned a long time ago that climate change and taxation are two issues that it is pointless trying to debate on an internet forum because no-one (on either side) will ever be persuaded to change their position.

I should add, though, that my personal opposition to the expansion of aviation in the UK is not related to climate change. It is simply that I would prefer to see airlines migrate to Schiphol and Frankfurt than see another hectare of this mostly green and pleasant land disappear beneath tarmac, and I think that our aim should be to make the UK's airports the best in the world rather than the biggest. That does not make me anti-aviation - quite the opposite, I think.
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Old 11th Sep 2009, 19:18
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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What's the saying, 'You can fool all of the people some of the time...........'
Bertand Russell, the philosopher, once said "Even when all the experts agree, they may well be wrong".

In fact they don't all agree!
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Old 11th Sep 2009, 21:34
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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there's those who, in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence, refuse to believe it and seemingly get a fuzzy feeling about being a "denyer"
oooh - a fantastic word from the green dogma.

I'm not a 'denyer' - the world implies I'm denying a fact. I'm not. There is no 'overwhelming scientific evidence'. In fact there is some very underwhelming pseudo science, and even that doesn't answer the question at the heart of the matter which is, that even if mankind is having a catastrophic effect on the planet, is it reversible? 'coz if it ain't then there is no point changing anything!

Anyone that travels outside of the UK (which i guess excludes the greenies - because they'd never be 2 faced and fly would they?) will know that this CO2 obsession and hatred of aviation is entirely UK specific. In the rest of the world CO2 features fairly low in the agenda and aviation, as befits an industry that generates such a small amout, hardly registers. In the UK of course we have a very unbalanced media with the government and green propoganda agency (i.e the BBC) giving very unbalance reports, and hogging most of the airtime.

Anyhoo, if we are going to have green taxes, then can they be fair? In which case, this forum , facebook, email and all those other lovely IT things would sudenly get very expensive, cos IT emits more CO2 than aviation. Goddammit, theres another nasty fact in the way of the green dogma. best ignore it and just get on with the cult chanting "aviation is evil, aviation is evil, ignore the facts, ignore the facts, aviation is evil, aviation is evil" etc etc.

And if aviation moves to Schipol then so do the jobs, and the tax - so you'd better get used to stumping up more cash, cos the aviation industry, and most of its employees are massive net contributors to the governments coffers.
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Old 12th Sep 2009, 11:51
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I should add, though, that my personal opposition to the expansion of aviation in the UK is not related to climate change. It is simply that I would prefer to see airlines migrate to Schiphol and Frankfurt than see another hectare of this mostly green and pleasant land disappear beneath tarmac, and I think that our aim should be to make the UK's airports the best in the world rather than the biggest. That does not make me anti-aviation - quite the opposite, I think.
Shall we ban cars, buses, trains, ships. Close down all the polluting power stations, move all industry outside of the UK and revert to middle ages farmers then when the lights go out?

Oh no, cows produce methane which is worse for the environment than a Range Rover.

Brilliant deduction Sherlock.
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Old 13th Sep 2009, 21:16
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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But in England at least The Guardian believes shipping accounts for up to 30% of air pollution, and that is equal to all the worlds car pollution. So by the time you have included electricity generation and heating pollution, it strikes me there is a not a lot left for aviation despite what all the media loves to announce!

Health risks of shipping pollution have been 'underestimated' | Environment | guardian.co.uk
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Old 14th Sep 2009, 07:08
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Aviation, is, has and always will be a soft target.

The rich (and politicians) have always been able to travel and will always be able to travel. Look at the carbon footprint of the latest U2 global warming warning concert! However, now that the rest of the Plebian mass wants a bite of the air travel and foreign holiday cherry the Government has seen a new income revenue stream but trying to make us all feel guilty about air travel.

They gloss over the shipping, car, bus, lorry emissions as they are already monstrous revenue generators. They can't tax fuel as airlines would just buy it abroad and fly heavier less fuel efficient aircraft in and out of the UK.

So they panda to the green lobby, use facts that are less than reliable (from Government sponsored scientific organisations) and impose these taxes on the UK that the rest of Europe have seen for the sham they are.

Enough is enough. Aviation has been at the forefront of new, lean burn, clean burn technology for years. The efficiency of a modern airliner is stunning. Why not incentivise airlines to upgrade to newer, fuel efficient airliners by offering a taxation system that takes aircraft age, engine fit and passenger loads into account. Ditch the BAA slot minimum use restriction which is forcing airlines to fly empty aircraft to retain slots and drop the APD.
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Old 14th Sep 2009, 19:40
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
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Why not incentivise airlines to upgrade to newer, fuel efficient airliners ...
Do you mean cash for clunkers? What an interesting idea ... but haven't I heard that somewhere else recently?

Seriously, it doesn't matter if we believe that GW is there or not, is caused by mankind or not is irrelevant. The policols have decided that it is - that is the reality the industry has to deal with.

Seeing as the vast majority (if not all) the growth in aviation in the UK is driven by one sector, perhaps the UK should introduce a 'minimum' fare. Say 100 one-way. Any fare lower than that would be taxed until it reaches 100. No doubt that would reduce (or kill) any growth in UK aviation - which would meet the goals of the politicians. Who knows, this might have some interesting consequences - like the rebundling of 'optional' charges back into the fare.
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Old 15th Sep 2009, 10:58
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Why not incentivise airlines to upgrade to newer, fuel efficient airliners ...
That is sort of what the ETS is supposed to do........all charged on top of the current passenger taxes, of course (and nobody yet knows how much that will cost).
In practise it will incentivise the airlines who have old gas-guzzlers to upgrade their fleet while punishing those who have already done so!
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Old 15th Sep 2009, 11:26
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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And the effect of the tax is now showing as FR open 2 new bases in Italy with no new routes to the UK!

Of course, the explosion in air travel is directly attributable to de-regulation which was a political decision!!
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Old 16th Sep 2009, 06:32
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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And the effect of the tax is now showing as FR open 2 new bases in Italy with no new routes to the UK!
I don't think there is any unspoken rule that all flights must start and/or end in the UK. Britain is not the hub of the aviation world.
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