grumpy at aircraft when asked for boarding pass. why?
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A boarding pass is a pass you show when boarding something. (Dictionary)
You board an aircraft when you step on board. (Homer Simpson, sorry)
So you should show your boarding pass when you do that and step on board an aircraft ? (Elementary Watson)
So you should not show your boarding pass before you step on board because the boarding pass should only be shown when stepping on board. (as above, logical deducytion)
So should the thread not read...
Grumpy anywhere other than aircraft when asked for boarding pass?
Do not the Grumpies get grumpy at the wrong grumpy point and not at all the right grumpy points?
Does that make the sense of the thing.
You board an aircraft when you step on board. (Homer Simpson, sorry)
So you should show your boarding pass when you do that and step on board an aircraft ? (Elementary Watson)
So you should not show your boarding pass before you step on board because the boarding pass should only be shown when stepping on board. (as above, logical deducytion)
So should the thread not read...
Grumpy anywhere other than aircraft when asked for boarding pass?
Do not the Grumpies get grumpy at the wrong grumpy point and not at all the right grumpy points?
Does that make the sense of the thing.
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D.A.H.
I'll write it again here just to have it on every page of this admittedly very boring thread:
I'll write it again here just to have it on every page of this admittedly very boring thread:
- Not all airlines check passes at the airplane door.
- These that do, do not make written or verbal recommendation to keep pass in hand.
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There are still some airports in the world where route from the boarding gate to aircraft is not secure - therefore some carriers have a standard operating procedure to ensure the person entering the aircraft is entitled to do so. Of course this may seem frivolous when you are checked at both ends of a jetway that has no other access.
In the not too recent past I was travelling in transit through an international airport. I was one of the last passengers to board. The ground staff at the entrance to the jetway advised me to turn right and go down the stairs to apron level. At the bottom of the stairs there was no-one to direct me. I knew I was travelling on a 737 - so I walked over to the first one. Kinshasa? I asked the crewmember at 1L - 'no sir' was the reply. I found the correct aircraft at the third attempt. Luckily I have worked in and around airports for 35 years so I was very aware of the hazards of the ramp.
As long as this kind of situation happens at airports (where even the boundary fence is not secure
) there will be a need for the check at the aircraft door. The fact that some carriers do not do it - I would like to see their risk assessments.
In the not too recent past I was travelling in transit through an international airport. I was one of the last passengers to board. The ground staff at the entrance to the jetway advised me to turn right and go down the stairs to apron level. At the bottom of the stairs there was no-one to direct me. I knew I was travelling on a 737 - so I walked over to the first one. Kinshasa? I asked the crewmember at 1L - 'no sir' was the reply. I found the correct aircraft at the third attempt. Luckily I have worked in and around airports for 35 years so I was very aware of the hazards of the ramp.
As long as this kind of situation happens at airports (where even the boundary fence is not secure
) there will be a need for the check at the aircraft door. The fact that some carriers do not do it - I would like to see their risk assessments.
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Seeing that I haven't flown for decades, is there anything purchasable that would make the whole carryng of boarding cards and other ID docs easier - especally when juggling stuff?
I know with rail tickets, they're credit-card format - so they slip into wallets... is there some wallet affair that can clip to a belt.. or can be hung round a neck? Should I have all 3 elements to hand... passport, boarding card, ticket... how does the raw beginner manage?
I know with rail tickets, they're credit-card format - so they slip into wallets... is there some wallet affair that can clip to a belt.. or can be hung round a neck? Should I have all 3 elements to hand... passport, boarding card, ticket... how does the raw beginner manage?
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PaperTiger
As you probably know, Jetways often have external access at the a/c end. There is a side door that goes to external steps and so to the apron enabling staff to move quickly from supervising the loading to speaking to a/c crew. Many perimeter fences are not secure (in many countries) so you must check the BP.
However many announcements (written and spoken) there will always be a small percentage of folks who do not have the BP ready. On a recent trip, a family in front of me going through security ... standing in line, I could easily see 'mum' collect the children's passports for safe keeping. Once through into the duty free, 'dad' asked 'mum' for the passports for safe keeping and then panicked that one of them was missing. I had seen that one of the children had retained theirs but it took the family nearly a minute to work out whose was missing and where it was. So, not having the BP to hand is a trivial exercise.
Right. So the 'security' aspect of checking the BP again at L1 is to identify those passengers who have materialised or dematerialised in the jetway ?
However many announcements (written and spoken) there will always be a small percentage of folks who do not have the BP ready. On a recent trip, a family in front of me going through security ... standing in line, I could easily see 'mum' collect the children's passports for safe keeping. Once through into the duty free, 'dad' asked 'mum' for the passports for safe keeping and then panicked that one of them was missing. I had seen that one of the children had retained theirs but it took the family nearly a minute to work out whose was missing and where it was. So, not having the BP to hand is a trivial exercise.
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PAXboy
So you let poor family suffer for one minute when you knew the passport was with the child? That was hard of you. They must have make you grumpy beforehand with behaviour?
So you let poor family suffer for one minute when you knew the passport was with the child? That was hard of you. They must have make you grumpy beforehand with behaviour?
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As has been noted by numerous people ahead/above...
No one in my entire 25 years of this industry and as a pax has ever told me once past the final gate inspection that I have to be prepared to show my boarding pass and why (of course yes I know why...)
Let's face it flying (airports) is a god awful experience these days...wait in line for this...inspect that...I travel 4-5 times a month and believe me I have learned to live with it but even I grate my teeth sometimes at the rudeness and ignorance that I can (sometimes) be shown by someone at security etc. etc.
As well as that every airport seems slightly different and I like to think I am used to the system...last week at a European airport (albeit Eastern) I had to show my passport and ticket twice just to get to check in and then passport and boarding pass a further three times to three seperate people within the space of 4 metres just to pass security into the departure lounge...now even I didnt foresee that and once inside it was a breeze
I try to smile and stay calm but believe me it's as difficult for the pax as it is the staff...and the pax is less experienced and sometimes less emotionally able to handle the stress...de-stress that system and I am sure you'll see a few more smiles back at the jetway
PS. In Joburg I was a given a further plastic security tag by a security bloke at top of jetway (after airline gate check at boarding) which u then gave to yet another clown standing in front of the door...approx 7 metres down the jetway with no means of access...work that one out and then ask why I almost called the guy at the bottom a w!nk!r
No one in my entire 25 years of this industry and as a pax has ever told me once past the final gate inspection that I have to be prepared to show my boarding pass and why (of course yes I know why...)
Let's face it flying (airports) is a god awful experience these days...wait in line for this...inspect that...I travel 4-5 times a month and believe me I have learned to live with it but even I grate my teeth sometimes at the rudeness and ignorance that I can (sometimes) be shown by someone at security etc. etc.
As well as that every airport seems slightly different and I like to think I am used to the system...last week at a European airport (albeit Eastern) I had to show my passport and ticket twice just to get to check in and then passport and boarding pass a further three times to three seperate people within the space of 4 metres just to pass security into the departure lounge...now even I didnt foresee that and once inside it was a breeze
I try to smile and stay calm but believe me it's as difficult for the pax as it is the staff...and the pax is less experienced and sometimes less emotionally able to handle the stress...de-stress that system and I am sure you'll see a few more smiles back at the jetway
PS. In Joburg I was a given a further plastic security tag by a security bloke at top of jetway (after airline gate check at boarding) which u then gave to yet another clown standing in front of the door...approx 7 metres down the jetway with no means of access...work that one out and then ask why I almost called the guy at the bottom a w!nk!r
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PaperTigerAs you probably know, Jetways often have external access at the a/c end. There is a side door that goes to external steps and so to the apron enabling staff to move quickly from supervising the loading to speaking to a/c crew. Many perimeter fences are not secure (in many countries) so you must check the BP.
If I want to jump over the fence, run across the apron and up the steps to the aircraft door, all I have to do to get past this so-called security check is to have a boarding pass that appears to be valid for this flight.
That would take me about 5 minutes to produce using Photoshop.
Checking at the door of the plane that I have a piece of paper which appears to be a boarding pass for that flight (without checking it against the manifest) has absolutely no security benefit at all. It does nothing to stop the scenario you envisage (which, I grant you, is probably one of the easiest ways for someone to get explosives or other forbidden items on a plane at ports where this route is possible). The only way to address such a risk is to do a headcount, and even that is easily bypassed if you have an insecure jetway/apron by someone who is "clean" leaving by the same route as the person with the explosives (and a matching boarding pass) enters.
Please engage your brain before making such ridiculous claims.
Last edited by christep; 18th Oct 2008 at 18:06.
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christep
How would you know what type of boarding pass to create and what flight number/destination/seat number to put on your photoshop creation?
As well as checking boarding cards at the door, we also count the number of passengers on board. Any extra/unauthorised passenger would soon be identified and removed. And don't you think someone would spot you running across the apron and up the aircraft steps?
Please engage your own brain....
I know the constant checks throughout the airport are a pain, but boarding passes are checked by different people for different reasons, and they are only doing their jobs.
As a handling agent we have to make sure that only passengers with a valid ticket and passport/visa for a flight are allowed to check in, and we have to double check the identity of that person prior to boarding them. This is partly to ensure that in the event of an accident we have an ACCURATE record of exactly who is on board the aircraft.
How would you know what type of boarding pass to create and what flight number/destination/seat number to put on your photoshop creation?
As well as checking boarding cards at the door, we also count the number of passengers on board. Any extra/unauthorised passenger would soon be identified and removed. And don't you think someone would spot you running across the apron and up the aircraft steps?
Please engage your own brain....
I know the constant checks throughout the airport are a pain, but boarding passes are checked by different people for different reasons, and they are only doing their jobs.
As a handling agent we have to make sure that only passengers with a valid ticket and passport/visa for a flight are allowed to check in, and we have to double check the identity of that person prior to boarding them. This is partly to ensure that in the event of an accident we have an ACCURATE record of exactly who is on board the aircraft.
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You aren't reading what I write carefully. The headcount has a purpose - that I don't dispute, although in the case of an insecure apron/jetway it is bypassed fairly trivially.
And as to what boarding card to create you obviously aren't following the scenario we are discussing of a terrorist wishing to get on board a specific flight with nefarious intent.
The question at issue here is what purpose the check at the aircraft door that someone has in their hand a piece of paper which looks like a boarding pass for that flight serves.
And the answer is clearly none at all (as pretty much all countries in the world except the UK recognise, and hence they don''t have such checks).
Moreover, the question of having an accurate record of who is on board an aircraft in the event of an accident is not a security issue either. Again I accept that it is an important thing to have, but that isn't the point at issue here.
Security of flights is very simple:
1. Screen all people who will board a flight to ensure that neither they nor their luggage have anything which could be used to harm the flight.
2. Screen all the cargo on the flight similarly.
3. Secure the cockpits so that no-one can take over the flight.
4. Ensure that no people who haven't been screened are able to board a flight.
And that's all.
So long as we have have procedures which achieve these four then I would be quite happy to sit next to Osama Bin Laden himself on a plane. The identity of the people on the plane is of no importance whatsoever given those four requirements are met.
Checking at the door that someone has a piece of paper looking like a boarding pass for that flight does not contribute in any way to meeting any of those four goals.
And as to what boarding card to create you obviously aren't following the scenario we are discussing of a terrorist wishing to get on board a specific flight with nefarious intent.
The question at issue here is what purpose the check at the aircraft door that someone has in their hand a piece of paper which looks like a boarding pass for that flight serves.
And the answer is clearly none at all (as pretty much all countries in the world except the UK recognise, and hence they don''t have such checks).
Moreover, the question of having an accurate record of who is on board an aircraft in the event of an accident is not a security issue either. Again I accept that it is an important thing to have, but that isn't the point at issue here.
Security of flights is very simple:
1. Screen all people who will board a flight to ensure that neither they nor their luggage have anything which could be used to harm the flight.
2. Screen all the cargo on the flight similarly.
3. Secure the cockpits so that no-one can take over the flight.
4. Ensure that no people who haven't been screened are able to board a flight.
And that's all.
So long as we have have procedures which achieve these four then I would be quite happy to sit next to Osama Bin Laden himself on a plane. The identity of the people on the plane is of no importance whatsoever given those four requirements are met.
Checking at the door that someone has a piece of paper looking like a boarding pass for that flight does not contribute in any way to meeting any of those four goals.
Last edited by christep; 18th Oct 2008 at 19:02.
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Here in the UK we have procedures to meet all four of your requirements, and checking boarding passes at the aircraft door contributes to meeting number 4.
The boarding pass is issued at check in, which is the first part of the screening process. It is then checked again at airport security to ensure only checked in passengers can gain access airside. It is checked at the gate to reconcile boarded passengers and to ensure that passengers who have checked in online have their identity verified and passports checked for validity and visas (airlines get fined if passengers travel with incorrect documentation). Inspection at the aircraft door is a final check to help catch any mistakes that may have been made earlier in the chain. Airport staff are only human, they work long, unsociable hours, and occasionally a passenger may slip through the net and try to board the wrong aircraft.
Making sure that all passengers have a valid boarding pass when they board the aircraft actually helps to makes sure that "no people who haven't been screened are able to board a flight"
The boarding pass is issued at check in, which is the first part of the screening process. It is then checked again at airport security to ensure only checked in passengers can gain access airside. It is checked at the gate to reconcile boarded passengers and to ensure that passengers who have checked in online have their identity verified and passports checked for validity and visas (airlines get fined if passengers travel with incorrect documentation). Inspection at the aircraft door is a final check to help catch any mistakes that may have been made earlier in the chain. Airport staff are only human, they work long, unsociable hours, and occasionally a passenger may slip through the net and try to board the wrong aircraft.
Making sure that all passengers have a valid boarding pass when they board the aircraft actually helps to makes sure that "no people who haven't been screened are able to board a flight"
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Making sure that all passengers have a valid boarding pass when they board the aircraft actually helps to makes sure that "no people who haven't been screened are able to board a flight"
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From a security perspective checking the BP at the door achieves nothing. There is absolutely no information on a boarding pass that tells you that the person holding it has cleared a screening process.
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Here in the UK we have procedures to meet all four of your requirements, and checking boarding passes at the aircraft door contributes to meeting number 4.
Please read the following very carefully, go away, reflect on it and then draw a conclusion.
NOT ALL AIRLINES CHECK BOARDING PASSES AT THE DOOR, not even in the UK.
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Christep, travelling on the wrong plane COULD be a security issue. I work for an airline with half a dozen flights a day from JFK to LHR. It certainly happens that the passenger has boarded the wrong LHR flight, but the baggage has been tagged and gone onto the correct flight. OK, I only found this twice in the year I flew that route, but let's face it, once is too often and could cause a security problem.
The rule about passengers not voluntarily travelling on a different plane from their bags is a legacy from the days when "security" planning was based on an assumption that terrorists wouldn't want to die with their bomb. This has been shown to be a completely invalid assumption. The rule could therefore be abandoned with no security impact.
There would of course be potentially unhappy punters (a revenue protection issue) if their bags ended up flying when they had changed their mind, but that isn't a security issue.
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Security is not the ONLY reason for checking boarding passes at the aircraft door! There are many reasons an airline may decide to do it.
It's a simple way of making sure some idiot doesn't get on the wrong plane! Believe me this happens, and when it does it causes a whole load of hassle, for the passenger, the crew and the ground staff. The airline can get fined, (which is then passed on to the handling agent) the passenger gets sent back on the next flight and the Daily Mail gets hold of the story and has a field day... Someone boarding the wrong flight may not always be a security risk, but it IS a complete pain for all those who have to deal with it.
Not everyone travels frequently, and you would be amazed at the number of people that turn up at the wrong gate simply because they have seen "Malaga" on a screen and don't realise there may be more than one flight going to Malaga at a time. When you have an easyjet/ryanair style free for all boarding scrum, passengers can and do get through the gate checks and try to board the wrong aircraft. This in turn causes delays, which annoys passengers and can lead to penalties for the handling agent involved.
You then get the people who think they can try and sneak onto an earlier flight than the one they booked to avoid paying a change fee. I agree this is more a revenue protection issue, but in todays financial climate, airlines need to protect their revenue more than ever.
An airline also needs to know exactly who is and isn't on board to ensure only accompanied baggage is allowed to travel (this IS a security issue - remember Lockerbie?). And as I said before, if an aircraft were to crash, they would be expected to have an ACCURATE passenger manifest for the authorities to use to contact relatives. Passenger reconciliation to satisfy these two requirements is done at the boarding gate - checking again at the aircraft door is just an extra measure implemented by some airlines. As far as I am aware it is not required by EU law, hence the fact not all airlines do it.
If an airline wants to check boarding passes at the door, they are fully entitled to. I appreciate that the inconsistencies can be frustrating, but each airline has its own rules, and as a passenger booking a ticket you agree to comply with those rules.
Is it really that difficult to show a small piece of paper at the door? And does it really matter WHY you are being asked for it? You never know, it might even be so the crew can welcome you by name, then direct you to your seat to try and speed up boarding and ensure you depart on time!
It's a simple way of making sure some idiot doesn't get on the wrong plane! Believe me this happens, and when it does it causes a whole load of hassle, for the passenger, the crew and the ground staff. The airline can get fined, (which is then passed on to the handling agent) the passenger gets sent back on the next flight and the Daily Mail gets hold of the story and has a field day... Someone boarding the wrong flight may not always be a security risk, but it IS a complete pain for all those who have to deal with it.
Not everyone travels frequently, and you would be amazed at the number of people that turn up at the wrong gate simply because they have seen "Malaga" on a screen and don't realise there may be more than one flight going to Malaga at a time. When you have an easyjet/ryanair style free for all boarding scrum, passengers can and do get through the gate checks and try to board the wrong aircraft. This in turn causes delays, which annoys passengers and can lead to penalties for the handling agent involved.
You then get the people who think they can try and sneak onto an earlier flight than the one they booked to avoid paying a change fee. I agree this is more a revenue protection issue, but in todays financial climate, airlines need to protect their revenue more than ever.
An airline also needs to know exactly who is and isn't on board to ensure only accompanied baggage is allowed to travel (this IS a security issue - remember Lockerbie?). And as I said before, if an aircraft were to crash, they would be expected to have an ACCURATE passenger manifest for the authorities to use to contact relatives. Passenger reconciliation to satisfy these two requirements is done at the boarding gate - checking again at the aircraft door is just an extra measure implemented by some airlines. As far as I am aware it is not required by EU law, hence the fact not all airlines do it.
If an airline wants to check boarding passes at the door, they are fully entitled to. I appreciate that the inconsistencies can be frustrating, but each airline has its own rules, and as a passenger booking a ticket you agree to comply with those rules.
Is it really that difficult to show a small piece of paper at the door? And does it really matter WHY you are being asked for it? You never know, it might even be so the crew can welcome you by name, then direct you to your seat to try and speed up boarding and ensure you depart on time!
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I have no problem with any of that (except the Lockerbie example). I've never said there wasn't a case for checking BPs at the door. My point has simply been that it is not a security issue. One of the many problems with the hassle we all have to go through at airports these days is that so many people invoke "security" as a reason for doing things when in fact many of them are for other reasons entirely (many of which are perfectly valid: revenue protection, accurate manifests, etc). This becomes very irritating to those of us who have the brains to work out there there is no possible security implication in whatever it is we are being asked to do and yet we are not allowed to question the situation because we're liable to get hauled of to jail for pointing out that we are being lied to (this apparently makes us a security risk).
All I ask is that people involved think before invoking "security". By all means if people ask why they are being asked to show their BP at the door then tell them it is a last check to make sure that they are on the right flight (since the system does demonstrably fail in that regard), but please don't insult our intelligence by telling us that this is a matter of "security".
The Lockerbie example is a long time ago - these days the terrorists would just get on board and die with everyone else. Your boarding pass check wouldn't stop that. The answer to bombs in luggage is to screen the luggage. Nothing else will have any significant impact.
All I ask is that people involved think before invoking "security". By all means if people ask why they are being asked to show their BP at the door then tell them it is a last check to make sure that they are on the right flight (since the system does demonstrably fail in that regard), but please don't insult our intelligence by telling us that this is a matter of "security".
The Lockerbie example is a long time ago - these days the terrorists would just get on board and die with everyone else. Your boarding pass check wouldn't stop that. The answer to bombs in luggage is to screen the luggage. Nothing else will have any significant impact.
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This article merits a read in the context of the security argument
Replica bombs 'smuggled into Gatwick' - Telegraph
Replica bombs 'smuggled into Gatwick' - Telegraph