Ryanair-Questions, comments, bouquets & brickbats (Merged)
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Ryanair Request
A friend of mine recently booked to travel with Ryanair from Liverpool to Reus, originally the flight was scheduled to leave early afternoon and she booked with Flybe to travel from the Isle of Man to Liverpool arriving in Liverpool at 8am, this would give her a 3.5 hour wait in Liverpool for the Ryanair flight.
However Ryanair have changed the flight time to 7am, so my friend will now have to pay to transfer her Flybe flight and stay overnight in Liverpool, as you can imagine she is less than impressed and complained to Ryanair, this is the response she got:
I know Ryanair are famed for their customer service (or lack there of), but I admit I have no idea on what they are legally obliged to do when they change the time of an already booked flight. I would imagine nothing, but any opinions on this would be appreciated!
Cheers
However Ryanair have changed the flight time to 7am, so my friend will now have to pay to transfer her Flybe flight and stay overnight in Liverpool, as you can imagine she is less than impressed and complained to Ryanair, this is the response she got:
Following your recent correspondence to us regarding confirmation number XXXXX.
Whilst we sympathise with this unfortunate situation, we regret that it is not the responsibility or liability of Ryanair.
Ryanair as a point to point airline, do not permit the booking of onward flight connections via our reservation system and do not sell through fares. We, also clearly state the following in our Terms and Conditions:
"Ryanair do not offer, and cannot facilitate, the transfer of passengers or their baggage to other flights, whether operated by Ryanair or other carriers. Passengers should therefore not book onward flights with Ryanair or indeed any other air or surface carrier."
It is each individual passenger’s responsibility to ensure that they arrive at the airport of departure in sufficient time to continue their onward journey, even in cases where it is another Ryanair flight. Given the above, we regret that we are not in a position to offer compensation.
Whilst we sympathise with this unfortunate situation, we regret that it is not the responsibility or liability of Ryanair.
Ryanair as a point to point airline, do not permit the booking of onward flight connections via our reservation system and do not sell through fares. We, also clearly state the following in our Terms and Conditions:
"Ryanair do not offer, and cannot facilitate, the transfer of passengers or their baggage to other flights, whether operated by Ryanair or other carriers. Passengers should therefore not book onward flights with Ryanair or indeed any other air or surface carrier."
It is each individual passenger’s responsibility to ensure that they arrive at the airport of departure in sufficient time to continue their onward journey, even in cases where it is another Ryanair flight. Given the above, we regret that we are not in a position to offer compensation.
Cheers
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The EU passengers charter will give some relief if your friend is travelling soon, but if the flight is more than two weeks away then Ryanair are free to change it as they please.
Transport: Air - legislation in force since 2005 - European commission
Having said that, I am a frequent Ryanair passenger and I have been subjected to several fight time changes in the past. Usually Ryanair give you the option of accepting the amended times or transferring to another flight to the same country free of charge (but not a refund). Maybe your friend could transfer onto a flight the day after, or maybe try and see if she can fly to Girona.
Transport: Air - legislation in force since 2005 - European commission
Having said that, I am a frequent Ryanair passenger and I have been subjected to several fight time changes in the past. Usually Ryanair give you the option of accepting the amended times or transferring to another flight to the same country free of charge (but not a refund). Maybe your friend could transfer onto a flight the day after, or maybe try and see if she can fly to Girona.
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There are two aspects to the legality of Rynair`s decisions:
1) What will Ryanair pay out without court action? - absolutely nothing. They will not even comply with EU Regulation 261 in the event of cancelled or delayed flights. They consider themselves liable for the fare paid and that is all.
So to get any money out of Ryanair you have to take them to court...
2) What will the small claims court award based on your particular circumstances? - probably nothing. As I understand it, you purchase an air ticket to take you from A to B - full stop. The time aspect is an estimation of your take off and arrival time.
a) Is it reasonable for Ryanair to alter the take off time by 4 hours? (probably)
b) Your conditions (in the small print) state that in no circumstances will Ryanair pay for consequential loss in the event Ryanair does not honour their side of the deal.
In conclusion this lack of fairness is what we have to accept in the new low fares model. When things go wrong you are on your own. Its not fair, but its the reality.
To declare an interest - ive done maybe 100 sectors (leisure and business) with Ryanair over the last 2 years, with only one delay of two hours...
You can do what most people do after bad service - never book with them again and bad mouth to anyone who will listen (satisfying) OR you can factor in the risk when buying the next ticket.
In my case ticket price + risk = cheaper price than rivals
Smala01
P.S. - Would Ryanair bother to defend a small court claim for <£200 - probably not for commercial reasons
1) What will Ryanair pay out without court action? - absolutely nothing. They will not even comply with EU Regulation 261 in the event of cancelled or delayed flights. They consider themselves liable for the fare paid and that is all.
So to get any money out of Ryanair you have to take them to court...
2) What will the small claims court award based on your particular circumstances? - probably nothing. As I understand it, you purchase an air ticket to take you from A to B - full stop. The time aspect is an estimation of your take off and arrival time.
a) Is it reasonable for Ryanair to alter the take off time by 4 hours? (probably)
b) Your conditions (in the small print) state that in no circumstances will Ryanair pay for consequential loss in the event Ryanair does not honour their side of the deal.
In conclusion this lack of fairness is what we have to accept in the new low fares model. When things go wrong you are on your own. Its not fair, but its the reality.
To declare an interest - ive done maybe 100 sectors (leisure and business) with Ryanair over the last 2 years, with only one delay of two hours...
You can do what most people do after bad service - never book with them again and bad mouth to anyone who will listen (satisfying) OR you can factor in the risk when buying the next ticket.
In my case ticket price + risk = cheaper price than rivals
Smala01
P.S. - Would Ryanair bother to defend a small court claim for <£200 - probably not for commercial reasons
Last edited by smala01; 16th Feb 2010 at 00:01.
Would Ryanair bother to defend a small court claim for <£200 - probably not for commercial reasons
That big scary rottweiler you walk past might well be as gentle as a pussycat and roll over aiming for its tummy to be tickeld by visitors. The fact that it barks very loudly whenever you walk past makes tummy-tickling visitors quite a rarity.
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Regulation 261 doesn't apply to Schedule Changes ... yet. But the EC is thinking about it.
See their consultation here. See Question 5.2
You've got until 1 April to respond. Some of the questions are from cloud coo-coo land (i.e. should they legislate seat pitch?) But if you want your views known, this is a good start.
Most network airlines will give you a full refund if their schedule change isn't acceptable, and they can't rebook you on a flight that is. That could still leave you out of pocket - but it is still better than this tactic.
See their consultation here. See Question 5.2
You've got until 1 April to respond. Some of the questions are from cloud coo-coo land (i.e. should they legislate seat pitch?) But if you want your views known, this is a good start.
Most network airlines will give you a full refund if their schedule change isn't acceptable, and they can't rebook you on a flight that is. That could still leave you out of pocket - but it is still better than this tactic.
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Has your friend looked at Ryanair's terms and conditions here:
In particular under Flight Cancellations and Schedule Changes:
If your flight is cancelled or before the date of travel, is rescheduled so as to depart more than three hours before or after the original departure time then you will be entitled to a travel credit or full refund of all monies paid if the alternative flight/s offered are not suitable to you and you do not travel.
If I was your friend I would go back and tell them that this is a change more than 3 hours and it's unacceptable and ask for a full refund. No need to mention why it's unacceptable and don't mention connecting flights - they think that their comment on connecting flights overrules this.
In particular under Flight Cancellations and Schedule Changes:
If your flight is cancelled or before the date of travel, is rescheduled so as to depart more than three hours before or after the original departure time then you will be entitled to a travel credit or full refund of all monies paid if the alternative flight/s offered are not suitable to you and you do not travel.
If I was your friend I would go back and tell them that this is a change more than 3 hours and it's unacceptable and ask for a full refund. No need to mention why it's unacceptable and don't mention connecting flights - they think that their comment on connecting flights overrules this.
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"Regulation 261 doesn't apply to Schedule Changes ... yet. But the EC is thinking about it."
Great in theory - but almost impossible to enforce without a court order. The burden of proof is almost impossible to obtain by a regular punter.
Two changes I would make:
1) Remove the "beyond the airlines control" clause to make it effective on any delay. Airlines should be made to insure against this eventuality by the regulator so there is no disincentive to fly with safety problems.
2) Introduce a tier system of payments that increase with length of delay to encourage airlines to put on extra "rescue flights" to prevent punters being stranded for weeks at some remote outpost.
Outside of the scope of the regulation:
Give teeth to the local regulator to implement a standard procedure for claims to prevent the necessity to go to court. (I do understand that this is out of scope for the EU regulation)
Work with insurers to create a product that an individual can purchase that covers the typical low cost "on your own" issues. They simply do not exist!
Smala01
Great in theory - but almost impossible to enforce without a court order. The burden of proof is almost impossible to obtain by a regular punter.
Two changes I would make:
1) Remove the "beyond the airlines control" clause to make it effective on any delay. Airlines should be made to insure against this eventuality by the regulator so there is no disincentive to fly with safety problems.
2) Introduce a tier system of payments that increase with length of delay to encourage airlines to put on extra "rescue flights" to prevent punters being stranded for weeks at some remote outpost.
Outside of the scope of the regulation:
Give teeth to the local regulator to implement a standard procedure for claims to prevent the necessity to go to court. (I do understand that this is out of scope for the EU regulation)
Work with insurers to create a product that an individual can purchase that covers the typical low cost "on your own" issues. They simply do not exist!
Smala01
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Here's something I don't write very often: I have made a booking with easyJet in preference to Ryanair!
There were two reasons for this. First, the easyJet fare was about £15 lower. Second, as the trip is greater than 15 days' duration, only easyJet offered me the ability to print both outward and return boarding passes before leaving home. It puzzles me why Ryanair only allows check in 15 days in advance. I know BA, for example, has OLCI a ridiculous 24 hours in advance, but if easyJet can give us 60 days, why not Ryanair?
There were two reasons for this. First, the easyJet fare was about £15 lower. Second, as the trip is greater than 15 days' duration, only easyJet offered me the ability to print both outward and return boarding passes before leaving home. It puzzles me why Ryanair only allows check in 15 days in advance. I know BA, for example, has OLCI a ridiculous 24 hours in advance, but if easyJet can give us 60 days, why not Ryanair?
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FR in a world of their own
Air travel is very safe, but not a business where corners should be continually cut. A refusal to refund when THEY cancel a flight or change it by several hours, to me, suggests probable avoidance of responsibility and penny pinching in every department. Most companies - in any business - would be more concerned about customer satisfaction and goodwill than holding onto £20. So, what other corners might they cut and pennies might they pinch that passengers cannot see? Personally, I would rather fly a bit less, and pay a bit more, to use a less cost-cutting-obsessed airline.
Oh, if you do fly FR, help your Cabin crew survive. Buy one of those ridiculously expensive bottles of water and a sandwich and give it to THEM. According to stories on the web, FR have stopped giving crews food or water, though they may work up to 12 hours a day.
Oh, if you do fly FR, help your Cabin crew survive. Buy one of those ridiculously expensive bottles of water and a sandwich and give it to THEM. According to stories on the web, FR have stopped giving crews food or water, though they may work up to 12 hours a day.
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DIA74
I have no argument against your customer service observations. I too wish they would address this side of their business.
The reality is that FR is still a growing business. Whilst some passengers will not fly with FR again after bad service there are still NEW passengers to take their place.
FR bad service is legendary yet passenger numbers still grow!
I must however take issue with your comment directed at safety:
"So, what other corners might they cut and pennies might they pinch that passengers cannot see?"
This hypothesis has been used for many bad media investigations in the past. All die quickly and without substantive evidence.
O The average age of a Ryanair aircraft about 3 years - there is little to go wrong with an aircraft that new. To save costs Ryanair could have bought cheaper 2nd hand aircraft.
O The Aircraft are subjected to strict checks mandated by the regulator AND more importantly for me ramp checks by the CAA in UK.
O There has not been a single reported maintenance related safety issue with Ryanair that i can remember in the last 10 years.
O The safety issues that HAVE been reported are down to pilot error and pilot judgment. Unless you argue that Ryanair have crap pilots then you must put this down to Human Factors which must surely effect other airlines.
O As Oleary says "if you seriously break a SOP you get fired". I'm fine by that... the jockeys can pilot me with the safety margins a well designed SOP allows for. Even scrooge himself understands a crash will bankrupt his business.
O Even the consensus on this very forum is that while FR cut costs everywhere, they do not make cuts that will effect the safety of aircraft.
And to be honest - i couldn`t give a toss about FR crew. they entered the industry and took the job knowing the conditions. They have the option to work elsewhere if they so desire.
I too also hate to pay for water (my Northern blood) - so i take a large empty bottle with me and fill it up from a tap airside. (as i also do at work)
I too have to pay for my own sandwiches at work. (If crew are a bit "short of cash" that month perhaps they could prepare their own the night before?)
My point being is that paying for your own lunch is quite standard in regular forms of employment.
Smala01
P.s. If any FR crew is reading this, its not an attack on you - After 100ish sectors I actually think you are very professional and do a good job.
I have no argument against your customer service observations. I too wish they would address this side of their business.
The reality is that FR is still a growing business. Whilst some passengers will not fly with FR again after bad service there are still NEW passengers to take their place.
FR bad service is legendary yet passenger numbers still grow!
I must however take issue with your comment directed at safety:
"So, what other corners might they cut and pennies might they pinch that passengers cannot see?"
This hypothesis has been used for many bad media investigations in the past. All die quickly and without substantive evidence.
O The average age of a Ryanair aircraft about 3 years - there is little to go wrong with an aircraft that new. To save costs Ryanair could have bought cheaper 2nd hand aircraft.
O The Aircraft are subjected to strict checks mandated by the regulator AND more importantly for me ramp checks by the CAA in UK.
O There has not been a single reported maintenance related safety issue with Ryanair that i can remember in the last 10 years.
O The safety issues that HAVE been reported are down to pilot error and pilot judgment. Unless you argue that Ryanair have crap pilots then you must put this down to Human Factors which must surely effect other airlines.
O As Oleary says "if you seriously break a SOP you get fired". I'm fine by that... the jockeys can pilot me with the safety margins a well designed SOP allows for. Even scrooge himself understands a crash will bankrupt his business.
O Even the consensus on this very forum is that while FR cut costs everywhere, they do not make cuts that will effect the safety of aircraft.
And to be honest - i couldn`t give a toss about FR crew. they entered the industry and took the job knowing the conditions. They have the option to work elsewhere if they so desire.
I too also hate to pay for water (my Northern blood) - so i take a large empty bottle with me and fill it up from a tap airside. (as i also do at work)
I too have to pay for my own sandwiches at work. (If crew are a bit "short of cash" that month perhaps they could prepare their own the night before?)
My point being is that paying for your own lunch is quite standard in regular forms of employment.
Smala01
P.s. If any FR crew is reading this, its not an attack on you - After 100ish sectors I actually think you are very professional and do a good job.
Last edited by smala01; 21st Feb 2010 at 02:47.
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Thanks, smala01
smala01 - Many thanks for your response. I am pleased to read FR do not cut corners on maintenance. For the record, I am not a nervous pax. I have been in the airline and travel industry for 40 + years and flown over 8000 sectors.
I agree new aircraft should not need intensive engineering, and that flying is very safe, but there have been enough fairly new craft involved in nasties to underline the need to avoid complacency. Ideal engineering support - (Yes, I know that term means very different things to Engineers and Accountants!!!) - requires major investment in experienced engineers, supervisors, ongoing training and spare parts. The bigger a carrier gets, and the wider their aircraft are scattered across bases, with staff not all totally proficient in the same language, the more investment is desirable. But of course safety is not just down to engineering. It rests heavily on flight deck and cabin crew training, in Operations, loading, ground handling - in fact virtually every department.
My flying experience has included a few potentially dangerous incidents. The likely causes of them, plus how crews reacted in a crisis, has been instructive.
I agree new aircraft should not need intensive engineering, and that flying is very safe, but there have been enough fairly new craft involved in nasties to underline the need to avoid complacency. Ideal engineering support - (Yes, I know that term means very different things to Engineers and Accountants!!!) - requires major investment in experienced engineers, supervisors, ongoing training and spare parts. The bigger a carrier gets, and the wider their aircraft are scattered across bases, with staff not all totally proficient in the same language, the more investment is desirable. But of course safety is not just down to engineering. It rests heavily on flight deck and cabin crew training, in Operations, loading, ground handling - in fact virtually every department.
My flying experience has included a few potentially dangerous incidents. The likely causes of them, plus how crews reacted in a crisis, has been instructive.
smala01,
In my experience the English Small Claims Court is very effective and in general you usually dont even need to send anything to the court. It works better than any regulator I have come across.
I usually fill in the forms and send a copy to the other party - and have usually been paid without even sending the forms to court.
The Scottish Small Claims Court on the other hand has been got at by lawyers and doesnt work at all well.
Occasional
In my experience the English Small Claims Court is very effective and in general you usually dont even need to send anything to the court. It works better than any regulator I have come across.
I usually fill in the forms and send a copy to the other party - and have usually been paid without even sending the forms to court.
The Scottish Small Claims Court on the other hand has been got at by lawyers and doesnt work at all well.
Occasional
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Oh, if you do fly FR, help your Cabin crew survive. Buy one of those ridiculously expensive bottles of water and a sandwich and give it to THEM. According to stories on the web, FR have stopped giving crews food or water, though they may work up to 12 hours a day.
I have been a CC with FR for a very long time now; yet i cannot recall when was it exactly they provided crew with airline food and water?
Even if they'd provide us with food, i still wouldn't eat it. Airline food is rubbish, we all know this. I'd rather eat something I (or Mr ATS) prepared, know what's in it, have something different every day and guess what, it'll help me going for 12 hrs or so
Having said that, i have some very good friends who work for a HUGE national carrier; even they said that as much as they love the idea of getting free crew meals, they still take their own on the trips they operate. Goes to prove it's not just the LoCo's...
Please do get your facts straight; what is being said on the "web" and what the truth is, well, they are 2 completely different things...
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Any suggestion that Ryanair's operations and maintenance match their customer service is total rubbish. I can say with absolute confidence, from personal knowledge, that their standards in those departments is as good as and probably much better than any other European or US airline. There is no penny-pinching on maintenance, for the very good reason that almost any expense incurred to prevent a delay or on-route technical diversion is going to be a lot less than the cost of said delay or diversion.
That's not to say that money is wasted. It isn't. But good purchasing, good stock control, good maintenance control, good recruitment and training, excellent quality assurance and financial care add up to good management, not "penny-pinching".
I know of legacy carriers, not a million miles from home, who are so far behind Ryanair under all those headings that there is no similarity of standards whatsoever. But they spend, and waste, a fortune on maintenance, measured per CTK produced, with no visible benefit in terms of standards and quality. But they have a lot of very, very well-rewarded Managers and Directors, together with the useless entourages that these people gather round them to protect them from the real world.
That's not to say that money is wasted. It isn't. But good purchasing, good stock control, good maintenance control, good recruitment and training, excellent quality assurance and financial care add up to good management, not "penny-pinching".
I know of legacy carriers, not a million miles from home, who are so far behind Ryanair under all those headings that there is no similarity of standards whatsoever. But they spend, and waste, a fortune on maintenance, measured per CTK produced, with no visible benefit in terms of standards and quality. But they have a lot of very, very well-rewarded Managers and Directors, together with the useless entourages that these people gather round them to protect them from the real world.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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So! a bit of light relief.
As FR travellers know one of the onboard "promotions" is the sale of scratch cards, some may say they are fixed but that is not true.
From what I know, this morning, on a UK bound flight one passenger was a winner to the tune of 10,000 euros (roughly £8,500).
This passenger then demanded full payment from the crew, who of course had to explain that they did not carry that amount of funds and that the passenger should follow the proceedure shown on the back of the card.
After some discussion, and for reasons unknown, the passenger then ate the winning card - yep thats right ripped it up, stuck it in the mouth and consumed it!
Possibly one of the more expensive snacks you can get
Apparently the cabin crew were incredulous.
As FR travellers know one of the onboard "promotions" is the sale of scratch cards, some may say they are fixed but that is not true.
From what I know, this morning, on a UK bound flight one passenger was a winner to the tune of 10,000 euros (roughly £8,500).
This passenger then demanded full payment from the crew, who of course had to explain that they did not carry that amount of funds and that the passenger should follow the proceedure shown on the back of the card.
After some discussion, and for reasons unknown, the passenger then ate the winning card - yep thats right ripped it up, stuck it in the mouth and consumed it!
Possibly one of the more expensive snacks you can get
Apparently the cabin crew were incredulous.
YES!
I fley last weekend and did not appreciate the odours of their latest burger-type offerings which made the part of the cabin near me smell like a greasy spoon. And no, it wasn't me that ordered them!!
And of course a food service implies that they haven't run out of supplies on previous rotations which is not uncommon as the day wears on!
Buy before you fly then at least you know what you are going to eat, and even better, hopefully enjoy!! Personally I recommend sushi as it is tasty and doesn't make a lot of mess.
I fley last weekend and did not appreciate the odours of their latest burger-type offerings which made the part of the cabin near me smell like a greasy spoon. And no, it wasn't me that ordered them!!
And of course a food service implies that they haven't run out of supplies on previous rotations which is not uncommon as the day wears on!
Buy before you fly then at least you know what you are going to eat, and even better, hopefully enjoy!! Personally I recommend sushi as it is tasty and doesn't make a lot of mess.
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It gets better, this made it all the way to the BBC News!
BBC News - Angry Ryanair passenger eats his winning scratchcard
Couldn't make it up!
Poor man, he must be feeling like a right muppet now.
BBC News - Angry Ryanair passenger eats his winning scratchcard
Couldn't make it up!
Poor man, he must be feeling like a right muppet now.
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Whoops
SMALA and ABUSING THE SKY - By one of those weird coincidences of life (or is it the Law of Attraction?) I was at a trade do this weekend and got talking to three people who are ex FR. Basically, they all said they left because of what they perceived to be a bullying culture (is Gordon Brown reading this??) And arbitrary actions by management. One complained she never managed to earn back enough to recover the cost of her training (it is a bit worrying they outsource basic training). Now working for a EU flag carrier and says much better working atmosphere. All 3 said they were glad to be out of it. The other two are no longer CC. Was also disturbed they said a lot of just-qualified pilots fly as FO's without pay in order to get hour son the log, and this is a source of anger among those pilots who are given days off without pay so FR can get the services of a free FO. Okay, this is just three EX staff, but, as they no longer work for the carrier, why would they all make up stories? I am afraid MY jury is still out on FR.