To Ryanair Pilots: What is wrong with the landings?

[RYRnick]

Hi,

I am flying on a Ryanair flight to Seville from Stansted next week, and I have flown with Ryanair for many many many years and not really had bad landings until now...

In April, I did the same flight - Stansted to Seville. The flight was good, but the landing scared the daylights out of me!

It seemed to me like it was really fast, and afterwards my Dad said "I thought that was way to fast" I agree with him.

We came down, and suddenly BANG!!! I never heard to many people shout S*** and gasp! I was so scared about the landing gear collapsing.

Why was the landing so hard? I have never ever had such a bad landing in my life, and I have flown so many times. Virgin (once) Iberia (several) BA (millions) and same with Ryanair (millions)

I am not going to insult anyone, but the crew were quite young? Was it due to a lack of experience?

On the return, it was better! I was sitting about 6 rows behind the over-wing exits so I geussed I would hit before the people in the front. I needed to overcome my fear.

The lockers rattled, but there wasn't such a loud bang, it was certainly better. The captain was a considerably older.

My fear is that do Ryanair pilots have to land the plane as quickly as possible due to the quick turnarounds? Or is it due to bad pilots?

I really like flying with Ryanair, I have had some excellent landings with Ryanair. But there are MILLIONS of videos that are flimed on a Ryanair landing and they are all kind of hard and bad?

Can anyone help me out, as I am a little scared about the landing I have coming up?

Thank you for reading, and I will apreiciate your replies greatly!

Thank you!

Nick.

[alex111]

...

Hey Nick...
to clarify your concerns, what passengers often refer to "bad landings" or "hard landings" are not very pleasent, but 100% safe.

Firstly, the boeing 737-800's landing gear was designed to withstand landings with no flare at all... hence there is no structural problem to worry about, and if a landing does go over a certain limit in terms of "hardness" (measured in terms of number of g's) it is reported by the crew and at the same time registered in what is called OFDM which is basically an on board parameter reader... the aircraft needs to then be inspected by an engineer.
Secondly, boeing reccomends "positive" landings for a variety of reason ie. the spoilers deploy faster, the aircraft is firmly on the ground and braking action occurs faster. This is especially important in a situation with a wet or short runway or with tailwind.
The moment you gotta start worrying is when the aircraft you are flying in starts "floating" on a short runway... hence sometimes it's better to do a "bad landing" (ie not pleasent for the paxes) but you've touchdown in the right spot of the runway.

Furthermore, Stansted is a big training base for newly trained first officers, hence when flying to or from stansted there's a possibility that you are flying in a training flight.
Often the new FO will be flying the aeroplane under the supervision of a training captain, and obviously the first landings he will do will be unpleasent. But again, safe.

Flights are usually divided between first officer flying (taking off & landing) and captain flying... obviously the captain will be flying the sectors that are more demanding in terms of weather/performance/runway etc.

All airlines have young pilots. Ryanair is a very big company that is expanding very rapidly, hence they require alot of pilots some of which are new and come directly from flight school and sometimes very young (18,19...).

Hope this clarifies your concerns, hope it wasn't me landing the aeroplane u were on .

Alex.

[aviatordom]

Don't they also use this technique to save fuel?

[Romeo India Xray]

aviatordom

I cant comment on FR specific SOPs (Standary Operating Procedures), but I can tell you that I can see no way you could save fuel from varying your landing technique. The set-up for the landing happens way back at the beginning of the approach and the speed/configuration would be roughly the same for any two 737-800s operating into the same runway at the same time with the same weight, no matter who the operator was.

There are a few exceptions to this, but it is unlikely that any of them would be used in normal SOPs so they dont enter into this.

In short, as Alex said, we can "plank" it onto the runway without a flare and everthing will still be OK (apart from you will think the pilot is really bad).

[RYRnick]

Thank you! I have flown BA from Gatwick to Seville, to Madrid, and Heathrow to Seville/Madrid and BA from Gatwick/Heathrow to Faro and the landings were incredibly smooth,this was a year ago, and if there was no noise I would not of felt it.

How come Ryanair do it differently? And over time the amount of hard hits to the landing gear it will break? It will eventually snap off and probably kill 3/4 if not all of the passengers of the plane?

Also, where are the best seats in terms of avoiding the landing?

Thank you.

Nick.

[Hokulea]

How come Ryanair do it differently? And over time the amount of hard hits to the landing gear it will break? It will eventually snap off and probably kill 3/4 if not all of the passengers of the plane?

Also, where are the best seats in terms of avoiding the landing?

From several years of experience, I've found that the best seat to avoid landing is the nice one in my own home. So far I've never had to land it.

You have to be joking. Right?

[RYRnick]

My apologies, I did not phrase that correctly. Your sarcastic comment was noted - and ignored.

I meant where is the best seat to not feel it, like the people at the front won't feel it as much as those in the middle or the back?

As if I was sitting under the rear wheels then I would feel it so much more than if I was in the front row?

Where is the best seat?

I did not phrase that correctly, apologies.

Nick.

[Rainboe]

In Ryanair, good landings cost extra. You paid the extra? Either travel and enjoy the experience, or chose not to travel and don't complain about it, but please don't travel extensively and complain! How many passengers has Ryanair killed? Why should they start with you? Are you sure you know what a 'good' landing is? If your yardstick is 'smooth so you don't feel it', then that is not a good landing. A 'hard' landing will drop the oxygen masks. A 'really hard' landing will break things. Learn to grow up a bit and understand you are in 50 tons of aeroplane hitting a rock hard runway at 140 mph with wind blowing. Don't sit there expecting to be unaware of arrival.

[Michael SWS]

alex111]All airlines have young pilots. Ryanair is a very big company that is expanding very rapidly, hence they require alot of pilots some of which are new and come directly from flight school and sometimes very young (18,19...).

Inexperienced teenage pilots, cabin crew who cannot speak English...

It would be fascinating to see what happens in a true emergency on a Ryanair flight. And whether the airline survived the fallout.

[Romeo India Xray]

I am no fan of RYR as they now manopolise routes between my base and my former home (where my relatives still live) - no ID tickets and often expensive.

However

I have to support their crews and training programmes. There is a counter argument that RYR pilots are safer due to the large number of flights they do .... i.e. they get lots of practice.

Those beautiful landings you speak of could actually be very dangerous on a wet runway. Notwithstanding, Boeing themselves instruct you to land the damn thing firmly. You can play around on Flight Sim all you like, trying to get a greaser, but try that in the real thing and you are just inviting trouble.

RIX

[NWSRG]

First up, I'm not a professional pilot (just a PPL), but I am a professional engineer...

And I do understand that there may be times when you want to make a 'firm' landing, given weather conditions etc. But surely any professional pilot would like to demonstrate his ability to control the aircraft smoothly and comfortably for the passengers where practical. Not to mention the maintenance benefits of mechanically smooth landings...

I have flown FR, BMI, EZY, EI, VS and CO in the last year...CO and EI were comfortably ahead of the rest in terms of 'comfort' on landing. FR were far and away at the bottom end of the scale...BMI, EZY and VS were all much the same, though closer to CO/EI than FR!

Obviously I have a small sample to go on, but it seems a lot of people are finding the same with FR...

[alex111]

BA just like Ryanair just like easyjet just like any other airline has teenage pilots (and cabin crew) to a certain extent.
In a company like ryanair there are many because the company is expanding very quickly together with other reasons.
In a company say like alitalia the youngest FO is probably 40yrs old with thousands of hours (an exageration but get my point) not because the company doesn't wanna hire inexperienced pilots but simply because the company doesn't need to hire anyone!

Regarding the emergencies, in ryanair there have been some serious ones, some minor ones, some well handled, some less well handled... like in any other company there have been investigations and solutions to negative trends. And so far there hasnt been any evidence that these negative trends can be directly blamed to inexperienced FOs apart hard landings when strong corss winds prevailed. The company looked into it and decided to apply a crosswind limitation to two-stripe FOs and more emphasis on the subject during line training (ie less then a year experience online).

The statement that no flare is a tecnique to save fuel is complete bollocks.

This is my last post because I can see the conversation is degenarating into the usual ryanair is s**** ect, too bad I was quite happy to clarify concerns/questions that I once had when I flew has a passenger with ryan.

Alex.

[ryansf]

For it's it's just 737-800s in general, rather than just Ryanairs. XL, ATA, Thomson (just to name a few) have all provided me with shocking landings over the past year. I have only ever had two smooth landings (on the -800), which were given to me in Pisa by Ryanair, and again on the return. Must be the Italian crews!

[G SXTY]

RYRnick

With all due respect, most passengers don't have a clue what constitutes a 'good' landing. Large aircraft travel very quickly and have lots of inertia. As a result, the safest landing technique is to achieve a stable approach in terms of airspeed and rate of descent, and to fly the aircraft onto the runway in the right place and at the right speed. A silky smooth touchdown is not the aim of the game - in fact it can sometimes be positively unsafe.

Sat in the back, you cannot assess the crosswind or airspeed, let alone whether or not an approach is stable, and you certainly can't see the touchdown zone markings. You don't know the traffic conditions, how close the aircraft behind is, or whether there is one to roll in the gap. You don't know if ATC have imposed a speed control on us. You don't know the landing distance available, or the location and type of runway exits. All you have to go on is the touchdown itself. I have known passengers thank the pilots for "a lovely smooth landing" after a high speed approach that was borderline unstable. Or be impressed by a smooth touchdown after an excessively long float that resulted in the aircraft using virtually all of the (fairly short) runway. But a positive arrival at the correct speed in the touchdown zone, and there will be at least one expert in the back who thinks that the pilots don't know what they are doing. I have known one passenger complain to the cabin crew after a perfectly executed wing-down landing, because "the pilot landed at the wrong angle."

I am fairly new to flying airliners (on a type, incidentally, which is even trickier than the 738 to land smoothly) but I have enough experience to know that landing them is more of a black art than an exact science. And that captains with 20,000hrs experience are just as capable of 'planting it' as 250hr pilots in line training.

I've had quite a few sectors in the back of Ryanair aircraft (although not the millions that you have), and in my opinion as a professional pilot, the average RYR landing is no better or worse than any other airline flying comparable aircraft on comparable runways.

[RYRnick]

I am sorry if I am causing some hard feelings, I will never ever fly BA ever again mainly due to poor service and very high prices. For short-haul I'll always fly Ryanair.

I just want to know how can landing the plane harder than usual be good for the aircraft, give a good impression about the airline, and overall attract the passengers to fly again with them?

On all the BA flights to Seville the landings were not hard, there was no massive bang. It seems normal to me, how can landing it hard and planting it down be normal? I am no expert! And I am no pilot, so I can't question the landing or his/hers skills. But what I can do is look from my experience from flying.

So a good landing is a firm one? And the best seats must be at the front right?

[G SXTY]

how can landing the plane harder than usual be good for the aircraft

Define 'usual'. And stop comparing a RYR 738 with a BA Airbus - they are different aircraft. A Dash 8 lands differently to a 146. A 747 lands differently to an MD11. Do all cars handle the same and have identical suspensions? Note also that identical aircraft may land differently according to circumstances. Give me a two mile long runway, 10kts of wind straight down it and no other traffic, and I might deliver what you think is a good landing. Give me a shortish runway, and/or other traffic waiting to depart or land behind me (i.e. 9 times out of 10 for most of us) and you will get a positive arrival, possibly firm - you might think it hard - but it will be safe. That is usual.

It seems normal to me, how can landing it hard and planting it down be normal?

Your idea of a 'hard landing' and mine are very different. You are basing your opinion on limited knowledge of the situation. As I have already explained, what you as a passenger may regard as a 'good' landing may be regarded by the pilots as a poor one.

I am no expert!

Well quite. You have, however, had the benefit of several professional pilots telling you the same thing, that landing a large and very fast moving aeroplane is a complex task that involves an awful lot of variables, and that with the best will in the world, you as passenger are not best placed to judge what constitutes a good landing. I apologise if I'm starting to sound tetchy, but while most of us on Pprune are happy to answer passengers' and enthusiasts' questions, it gets a little wearing when people appear unwilling to accept our explanations.

If you really want to appreciate what's involved, book yourself an hour in a 737 simulator. There's a very nice one down at Bournemouth - it's a -200 series rather than an -800, but it will serve the purpose. Practice landing it. In the unlikely event that you find it easy, get the instructor to dial in some crosswind or turbulence. You might find it a bit of an eye-opener.

[Abusing_the_sky]

Inexperienced teenage pilots, cabin crew who cannot speak English...

It would be fascinating to see what happens in a true emergency on a Ryanair flight.

Michael SWS, that is ever so rude and offensive. Do you actually think that ALL the Aviation Authorities out there would allow the above mentioned by you crew to operate if they didn't meet the AAs requirements?? I can assure you that training is hard and intensive and whoever fails well, they're not good for the job, end of!
Want to hear about what you call "a true emergency"? Myself and my JU's saved someone's life in flight. The pax had a heart attack and acting on cold feet and using the SEP (and all training), we saved someone's life. A life in danger IS a true emergency. And since you attack the cabin crew who "cannot speak English": I'll have you know that the only ENGLISH crew on board was the CP. FO was if i remember correctly Portuguese and the Cabin Crew were all different nationalities but English. Both of F/D very young, the CP 27yo.

Could all your spiteful comments have to do with you being rejected by Ryanair recently?


RYRnick, i know you addressed the question to the f/d crew however please allow me to share my own opinion.
We call a good landing ANY landing that gets one safe and sound off the aircraft. Could be several reasons for the "very bad one": bad weather, strange runway (i.e. Limoges APT has a banana shaped runway- very tricky to land it like a feather-, ATC instructions, the autopilot, anything really). I am not saying that it's not the pilot's fault, but rarely it is. It's not like they do it on purpose and just slam the tin can on the ground without giving a monkey, several factors come in unexpectedly during the approach and landing.
I personally find it "less bumpier" if you like when i sit in the front. But then again i always sit there so i guess i am used to it.

Rgds,
ATS

[RYRnick]

I was comparing two different aircraft, and that was wrong. Sorry.

I was just unsure about what happens in landings, and what are the variables. I see that the 737-800NG needs to be landed firmly to get the auto brakes working on the touchdown moment. I will tell this to my family, who are going to be a little scared on the Ryanair flight on Wednesday.

I will continue however to use Ryanair as I think they're a excellent airline!

I never guessed landing softly, and on the back wheels then slowly coming down to the nose wheels represented the chance of over skidding the runway. Depending on length however.

Do pilots know if the landing was hard/bad-ish/not the norm as they are right at the front? Do they hear the same bang?

How much force can the gear take before it snaps and collapses?

Would the pilot know if the landing might be hard due to slightly fast, and the nose slightly lower?

I will post what the landing was like, but then again I don't know what it was like as I didn't land it!

I have however had smooth landings to Seville with Ryanair, so maybe I was just unlucky.

Also, the overhead lockers slightly rattling is that normal on landing?

Sorry, but I nervous now.

Thank you though for your replies!

[Rainboe]

Look, fun over, I'll tell you what it's about. The 737-700/800/900 is the NG model (Next Generation). Fancy electronics. And a very hard, unyielding oleo on the main undercarriage legs. I don't know why Boeing did that, but I have flown 737-200 and -400 for 8 years0 you can land them smoothly, and the -700 for 2 years- disaster area. It's frankly a bugger to land smoothly. I could never do it consistently smoothly, even on a good calm day, ....thump. When I went passenger with my colleagues flying.....thump. It's like landing without any suspension. Now a B747-400, you can kiss the ground, land it without anybody realising because the oleos are not only soft, they are also feather-bedded. That is why even old experienced ace pilots, with dashing good looks (like me) can't land the thing without you losing fillings. Every landing is an arrival!

[RYRnick]

So you are telling me that the 737-800NG is something that will always be landed firmly/hardly? Why would they do that, as 160+ people all said S*IT when we landed!!!