Over water

[west lakes]

Flotation Devices

Interestingly, though, I flew with a Us Loco last year in an MD8x. The a/c was not equipped with lifejackets. In the safety demo we were told that the seat cushions were to be used as flotation devices if required.
The airline's network seemed to be nearly 100% over land with only two flights, at that time, over the sea. These were Florida - New England.

[The_Banking_Scot]

Hi,

I have been on ( former) America West and American Alirlines 737s/ MD80's where there are no lifejackets but flotation cushions instead.

I think it is the FAA regulations which state that aircraft that fly futher than 50 miles from land must have lifejackets rather than only flotation cushions.

Regards

TBS

[GEAR_DOWN]

The only known planned ditching was the hijacked Egypt air which planned top ditch, and he made a very good attempt at doing so, even with being battered on the head at the time by the hijackers. The aircraft did break up as the wing just clipped the water, but there WERE survivors. Most unsuccessfull 'ditchings' have been crashes, where the aircraft has been out of control eg. explosion, fire, engine failure. If the aircraft is still under control, eg still has hydraulics, power, then there may well be a successful case of a ditching yet.

[10secondsurvey]

I'm a frequent flyer, and have observed many discussions on other parts of this board by pilots and engineers regarding the relative merits (or not) of flying say over the pacific with two engines (e.g. 777) as opposed to say four on a 747. Despite reassurances, I always try to take such trips on a four engined jet.

The reality is, that the rationale for moving from four to two engines was money, and nothing else.

As for ETOPS, it gets longer all the time. What if the second engine fails during the 3 hours (etops180) (which is a long time to fly with a faulty aircraft).

I'm not a pilot or an engineer, but just someone who flies a lot, and I'm just not convinced about the whole ETOPS thing, and certainly not for 3 and a half hours (etops 207). I know others will disagree, but its my personal opinion.

[barry lloyd]

And what if the planned emergency landing (say at KEF for example) has to be abandoned because the airport is closed due WX or an obstruction on the runway? Assuming for a moment that some passengers/crew survived a landing on water in winter off the coast of Iceland/Greenland in winter, how long would they last in the water? As an earlier poster pointed out, hypothermia (and exhaustion from the high waves) would set in rapidly, probably before any boats/helicopters could reach them.
Landing on a beach near the Comores on a part of the Indian Ocean (one of the warmer bodies of water around the world), is one thing. Ditching in the north Atlantic in the middle of winter is entirely another.

[BackPacker]

Ditching in the north Atlantic in the middle of winter is entirely another.

It doesn't even have to be middle of winter. Hans Horrevoets was swept overboard from the Dutch Volvo Ocean Racer ABN AMRO II on May 18, 2006. He was found just 20 minutes later but CPR failed to revive him.

I don't know the details, but he was swept overboard by a wave while the boat was doing 20-30 knots or so, not involved in ditching an airliner at, what, 150 knots? So it is fairly safe to assume he did survive the initial impact in the water. Also, he had more or less suitable clothes on. Not a drysuit, not a lifeline, but sailors wear in any case. Something more suitable for survival than a business suit in any case. And these guys are very, very fit and trained for what they're doing. In fact, they're required to have undergone maritime survival training before being allowed to enter the race.

Yet he died, either from hypothermia or drowning, or both, in less than 20 minutes.

Now project this to an airliner ditching. Think about the impact forces of the "landing". Think about average clothing that's being worn on an aircraft. Think about how long it will take for suitable rescue to arrive, able to deal with 300+ victims. No chance at all for survival in the North Atlantic.

As far as the Egypt Air is concerned, what I remembered from the NG documentary is that they ditched very close to a crowded beach, in shallow and warm water. With the result that the fuselage bits did not get submerged completely and lots of pleasure boats were able to attend the rescue immediately. So a lot of the victims that did survive the initial impact did not subsequently drown or die from hypothermia. But I have to admit my memory is sketchy on this one.

[BackPacker]

And what if the planned emergency landing (say at KEF for example) has to be abandoned because the airport is closed due WX or an obstruction on the runway?

Airports don't close because of the weather. If the weather is bad, pilots make the (sensible) decision not to land (unless it's an emergency). But it's not the airport that can decide to close because of weather, especially not with a mayday on finals.

If a runway is obstructed, well, most airfields (including KEF) have multiple runways available and in an emergency, pilots can and will land on a parallel taxiway if necessary - although it's not guaranteed that either the aircraft or the taxiway will be reusable after that. But it's better than an off-airport landing or a ditching anyway.

Other than that, I'm pretty sure that ETOPS rules will specify somehow that the ETOPS alternate has to be sensible and usable as an alternate.

[islandgirl]

ALM flight 980 in 1970

I believe that this was the first successful ditching. It was a ditching in the Caribbean Sea near the Virgin Islands. The plane was flying from JFK to SXM and after two go-arounds in SXM due to wx below minimum, captain decided to head to SJU. Without enough fuel to make it to SJU he tried for St Croix, I think, and then made a water landing, not being able to make to St Croix. Pax were unaware that they the captain was ditching the plane. About 50% of pax survived, and the plane landed in tact. And before I get berated, I am aware that the engines on this aircraft type are not underwing. It's an interesting story, somebody from the island I grew up on (not SXM if you were wondering) was on that plane, and unfortunately, didn't survive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALM_Flight_980