Overwing Exits and Frequent Fliers?
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RyanAir has a mysterious rule about the people in the very last row in the cabin not being allowed to put their bags under the seat in front.
Presumably the idea is not to have the very last row sprawling over their bags and holding up the entire cabin during an evacuation?
I don't understand this too well, because it just would mean the last six could get out pronto, but IMHO you just have moved the problem forward one row.
People next to the emergency exits is obviously not the same situation.
Presumably the idea is not to have the very last row sprawling over their bags and holding up the entire cabin during an evacuation?
I don't understand this too well, because it just would mean the last six could get out pronto, but IMHO you just have moved the problem forward one row.
People next to the emergency exits is obviously not the same situation.
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Clarence
So the manifest tells you whose a member of every other airlines schemes does it?
And you are able, conclusively, to relate the manifest to each and every passenger, in real time, whilst observing their behaviour, since you need to do this to justify your statement.
So you are taking bolleaux
So the manifest tells you whose a member of every other airlines schemes does it?
And you are able, conclusively, to relate the manifest to each and every passenger, in real time, whilst observing their behaviour, since you need to do this to justify your statement.
So you are taking bolleaux
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 26th Jul 2007 at 16:24.
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Anyone reading this would be forgiven for thinking that in the past, exit rows were allocated randomly - when the reality was that most of the seats were allocated to either airline staff or friends of staff long before the flight by friendly ground crew. Now, EI for example, apart from charging for bags are also asking 15-odd Euro for an aisle seat - how the mighty have fallen to lower than the pond-scum they used to look down on, but as a mate said, at least you can get one now if you're prepared to shell out for it.
Note the subject of safety hasn't been mentioned once in all this, and I can count on one finger the number of airlines where I have been properly briefed while paxing in an exit row. You'd be surprised how many people are weirded out by sitting by an exit door until told it can't be opened in flight.
Note the subject of safety hasn't been mentioned once in all this, and I can count on one finger the number of airlines where I have been properly briefed while paxing in an exit row. You'd be surprised how many people are weirded out by sitting by an exit door until told it can't be opened in flight.
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Yes. Many, if not most, frequent flyers are so familiar with everything that they don't even need to pay any attention to the safety briefing, or even read the safety card.
Do I pay close attention to the safety briefing? Frankly, no. I've heard it all before dozens of times. I know how to put on and take off my seat belt. I know how to put on the oxygen mask. By the time of the safety briefing, I've already read the safety card several times. I've located the closest exits to the front and rear. I've counted the number of seats to the closest exit and committed it to memory. I've memorized the procedure to open the closest exit. I've looked down at the floor to try to find the emergency lighting. Yes, I still do this on each flight.
Would a flight crew member be able to better operate an emergency exit than I? Possibly. But just how much better? From reading the safety cards, I have to say that opening emergency exits does not appear to be rocket science. Perhaps those of you with "extensive safety training" can convince me otherwise.
I can understand why dead-heading crew member would want to be in an exit row. I want to be in that very same row for the very same reason.
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I'm with OFBSLF here.
Do I listen to the safety briefing, aka "The Dance of the Trolley Dollies"?
Only with half an ear, in case there is a variant.....
But I read the card, check the exits, check the life jacket....
To me the seat belt demo is always the ultimate joke.... who in this world in this day and age has never seen a seat belt?
Especially since on my latest flight I found my seat belt didn't work as demonstrated.... the lock part was upside down, so I would have to twist it before locking it.
And no, it wasn't part of the seat next to mine.
After a two-minute analysis in 3D topology I figured how to get the lock the right way up (think car seat belts, where this can happen). Still wonder how it got that way, though. Probably an inquisitive 8-year old on the previous flight.
Oh, and sometime I wouldn't mind to be told how hard to tug on that oxygen mask.
And sometime I wouldn't mind a moment of hands-on practice with that life vest (can I buy a time-expired one cheap?).
And sometime I wouldn't mind knowing if the doors are on manual which lever to pull for the slide....
In this day and age, maybe with the endless security check queues, they could have an extended safety briefing video in an endless loop in the waiting area? With nothing else to do and watch, it might sink in.
Do I listen to the safety briefing, aka "The Dance of the Trolley Dollies"?
Only with half an ear, in case there is a variant.....
But I read the card, check the exits, check the life jacket....
To me the seat belt demo is always the ultimate joke.... who in this world in this day and age has never seen a seat belt?
Especially since on my latest flight I found my seat belt didn't work as demonstrated.... the lock part was upside down, so I would have to twist it before locking it.
And no, it wasn't part of the seat next to mine.
After a two-minute analysis in 3D topology I figured how to get the lock the right way up (think car seat belts, where this can happen). Still wonder how it got that way, though. Probably an inquisitive 8-year old on the previous flight.
Oh, and sometime I wouldn't mind to be told how hard to tug on that oxygen mask.
And sometime I wouldn't mind a moment of hands-on practice with that life vest (can I buy a time-expired one cheap?).
And sometime I wouldn't mind knowing if the doors are on manual which lever to pull for the slide....
In this day and age, maybe with the endless security check queues, they could have an extended safety briefing video in an endless loop in the waiting area? With nothing else to do and watch, it might sink in.
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ChristiaanJ
From a Cabin Crews view its nice to see someone is interested in the safety demo for genuine reasons.
However I think extended demos would be a waste of time as many pax are to up themselves to take notice.
With regard to the doors manual or armed, honestly you would not need to know, if an evacutaion was ordered the doors would be correctly positioned ready.
Back to the point of exit seats. During boarding we as C.Crew pay close attention as to who sits in the seats, as they are restricted (CAA, not sure about FAA regs). Basically ONLY fully able bodied pax may sit in these seats. Also when in a exit seat the pax are briefed on exits (again a/c types regulations ect come into account) must pay attention to their briefing. If the pax wether positioning crew, frequent flyer or regular pax does not wish to pay attention they will be moved.
From a Cabin Crews view its nice to see someone is interested in the safety demo for genuine reasons.
However I think extended demos would be a waste of time as many pax are to up themselves to take notice.
With regard to the doors manual or armed, honestly you would not need to know, if an evacutaion was ordered the doors would be correctly positioned ready.
Back to the point of exit seats. During boarding we as C.Crew pay close attention as to who sits in the seats, as they are restricted (CAA, not sure about FAA regs). Basically ONLY fully able bodied pax may sit in these seats. Also when in a exit seat the pax are briefed on exits (again a/c types regulations ect come into account) must pay attention to their briefing. If the pax wether positioning crew, frequent flyer or regular pax does not wish to pay attention they will be moved.
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Frankly, I think all this 'frequent flyers know best' stuff is total b*llsh*t! I'm a frequent flyer myself and I certainly have never had to open one of these overwing exits - the crew are (presumably) all trained in this procedure and have practical experience of using these doors from their training.They will also know exactly what hazards to look for outside before opening said exit and I personally would always defer to the crews knowledge in the event of an evacuation.
On a slightly different note, flying with KLM from Aberdeen earlier in the year, the CC allowed a pax to remain in an emergency exit seat even though he was so overweight he patently would not even FIT THROUGH the overwing exit of a 737. How on earth can that be safe?!
On a slightly different note, flying with KLM from Aberdeen earlier in the year, the CC allowed a pax to remain in an emergency exit seat even though he was so overweight he patently would not even FIT THROUGH the overwing exit of a 737. How on earth can that be safe?!
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Frankly, I think all this 'frequent flyers know best' stuff is total b*llsh*t!
What some of us said is basically that anyone paying reasonable attention knows well enough.
1) the probability of an accident is very low.
2) the probability that the difference between my performance opening an over-wing accident versus that of a crew member will be important is low.
The combined probability is the multiplication of those two probabilities. In other words, minuscule.
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Frankly, I think people deliberately misrepresenting what others say is totally b*llsh*t. No one said 'frequent flyers know best', as you well know.
Well said.
To which I would add that a person sitting in the cabin who is not a member of the operating crew is in fact a passenger.
They will also know exactly what hazards to look for outside before opening said exit
Read this http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ire+evacuation
Well said.
To which I would add that a person sitting in the cabin who is not a member of the operating crew is in fact a passenger.
They will also know exactly what hazards to look for outside before opening said exit
Read this http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ire+evacuation
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So a pax knows better than trained cabin or flight crew now?! I know I certainly dont and I've heard enough safety briefings etc. Stated example was someone positioning in uniform and presumably with a company ID badge with which to identity themselves to the CC. NOT therefore your average pax as they HAVE been formally trained and assessed...
I certainly know who I'd prefer to have sitting next to the exit if there was an emergency and it sure as hell isn't someone with a gold FF card...
I certainly know who I'd prefer to have sitting next to the exit if there was an emergency and it sure as hell isn't someone with a gold FF card...
Hilarious as usual here on pprune when cockpit and cabin crews "professionalism" is questioned. As an old seadog with plenty of training in firefighting and emergency procedures and some real life experience in both I find the debate of opening an airplane emergency exit..... quite frankly hysterical. I do understand that "trained professionals" like to mystify and glorify their tasks in order to come across as a different breed, but on who should sit next to the emergemcy exit? 
Oh, and I have the odd FF goldie.
Per
Oh, and I have the odd FF goldie.
Per
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Its not really an issue of trained vs untrained when it comes to simply opening the exit (removing the door, come on a monkey could do it)...its the training when things go tits up...when its dark, smokey, and scary...having someone with their wits about them is key to saving the day. Too many times the people in those exit rows are not the sort that will be able to respond in times of need..yes they probably can lift 35lbs but I doubt their instincts will be to do what it takes to get out and assist crew.
My guess is trained cabin crew would be an asset but so would better screened or profiled pax. The FF with the gold card is fine and deserves the better seat, as long as they take the responsibility very seriously. However, in this day and age of political correctness and the almighty dollar, those seats will remain open to those that pay the salaries more often, no matter their physical or mental abilities...Ive seen a FF sitting in the exit who couldnt even lift his own laptop bag into the bin (weak, small fellow), yet demanded the exit row every trip as he was ...platnium (I know as he was my work colleague)...and really didnt even need the extra leg room, it was more of a prestige thing for him..for me it has always been about being 'willing and able' to assist...
My guess is trained cabin crew would be an asset but so would better screened or profiled pax. The FF with the gold card is fine and deserves the better seat, as long as they take the responsibility very seriously. However, in this day and age of political correctness and the almighty dollar, those seats will remain open to those that pay the salaries more often, no matter their physical or mental abilities...Ive seen a FF sitting in the exit who couldnt even lift his own laptop bag into the bin (weak, small fellow), yet demanded the exit row every trip as he was ...platnium (I know as he was my work colleague)...and really didnt even need the extra leg room, it was more of a prestige thing for him..for me it has always been about being 'willing and able' to assist...
Cathay blocked off all 747 overwing exits at one stage = 12 extra pax. Do they still do this? It took many rehearsals to get 400+ out of the aircraft in under 90 seconds to get approval.
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Currently my wife and I fly on the airlines about 6 or 7 times a year, hardly what one could term frequent Flyers. To be honest we avoid airline travel as much as possible. However, when forced to travel on the airlines due to time restrictions we do everything possible to be seated on the exit row.
Part of the reason is indeed the extra leg room, I'm 6 feet 5 inches and my wife is just under 6 feet tall, we like the room. However, the primary reason is for our safety. I am a semi-retired (looking for work) corporate/government pilot and my wife attended Flight Safety International Flight Attendant Training School and has served as a Corporate Flight Attendant.
We have opened emergency over-wing exits, we know how heavy they are, we know not to leave the exit window laying in the seat next to the exit, as some carriers still require. In fact I was nearly removed from a flight because I told a lady sitting next to the exit window that she was not to leave the window laying inside, as instructed, but to throw the thing out the exit hole and don't let go of it. Well, the FA overheard me and the fight was on, we finally agreed not to agree and carried on.
No, the primary reason for our desire to be placed in the window exit row is because we have no desire to die because some incompetent fool can't figure out how it really works, then takes too long to open it and then is to damn fat to fit through it.
So hell yes, have the dead-heading crews sit in the exit rows, if I can't at least I know for sure that there is someone sitting there that does know how to operate the exit. Or even better, when not to open the exit.
Part of the reason is indeed the extra leg room, I'm 6 feet 5 inches and my wife is just under 6 feet tall, we like the room. However, the primary reason is for our safety. I am a semi-retired (looking for work) corporate/government pilot and my wife attended Flight Safety International Flight Attendant Training School and has served as a Corporate Flight Attendant.
We have opened emergency over-wing exits, we know how heavy they are, we know not to leave the exit window laying in the seat next to the exit, as some carriers still require. In fact I was nearly removed from a flight because I told a lady sitting next to the exit window that she was not to leave the window laying inside, as instructed, but to throw the thing out the exit hole and don't let go of it. Well, the FA overheard me and the fight was on, we finally agreed not to agree and carried on.
No, the primary reason for our desire to be placed in the window exit row is because we have no desire to die because some incompetent fool can't figure out how it really works, then takes too long to open it and then is to damn fat to fit through it.
So hell yes, have the dead-heading crews sit in the exit rows, if I can't at least I know for sure that there is someone sitting there that does know how to operate the exit. Or even better, when not to open the exit.
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I am a former FA and in my job a very frequent flyer. I personally like those airlines paying attention to who is sitting in these crucial seats and have already once complained to the safety pilot of one airline who is not only selling the exit rows at extra charge but on that flight I complained about also allowed the pax sitting there to stow their hand luggage under the seat in front.
KLM did the very best thing I can imagine in the 80s: They invited their frquent flyers to AMS for a safety day in which they were allowed to open doors and wing exits, to "shoot" a slide etc. I was one of the lucky ones to go there and once you had completed this "training" you were always marked on the PIL and in your booking. So you would automatically get these seats and the crew would know that you had been in the training.
I do understand that cost does not allow such things any more - but I know a lot (!!!) of frequent flyers who would even spend their airmiles to pay for such a training. This does include me, btw, as my FA times are more than 10 years ago...
Does anybody else know of an airline that offers such trainings?
KLM did the very best thing I can imagine in the 80s: They invited their frquent flyers to AMS for a safety day in which they were allowed to open doors and wing exits, to "shoot" a slide etc. I was one of the lucky ones to go there and once you had completed this "training" you were always marked on the PIL and in your booking. So you would automatically get these seats and the crew would know that you had been in the training.
I do understand that cost does not allow such things any more - but I know a lot (!!!) of frequent flyers who would even spend their airmiles to pay for such a training. This does include me, btw, as my FA times are more than 10 years ago...
Does anybody else know of an airline that offers such trainings?
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Originally Posted by Airbourne-Adamski
From a Cabin Crews view its nice to see someone is interested in the safety demo for genuine reasons.
I know, as an "ancient", that there are such things as survivable accidents. So I always try to put all the chips my way.....
As to the "doors to manual".... I still wonder.
Many years ago a DC-8 was caught in a sudden down-draught north of Milan, and was literally slammed down on a hill-side, shedding the wings among the trees, so no fire.
People literally walked away from that crash - to the extent that the authorities had no figures for the casualties for several days.
If I had been there, and I had to open the door, and you were halfway down the cabin.... would the slide have deployed automatically?
con-pilot
I'd fly with you any time.
Even if I prefer being right at the back, rather than at or near the overwing exits.
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Familiarity breeds contempt. Yep.
How many of the frequent fliers listen to the safety briefing/read the cards? I know many do, and hats off to them. The rest of you "I've been on a 7x7 a hundred times, so I can read my newspaper instead" are a problem.
Not every aircraft of the same type is the same. Do well to remember that.
I always count the seat-rows to the nearest exit I might need. Having done plenty of training evacs, can tell you that smoke is kinda difficult to see through.
And as for kids/elderly/overweight/disabled at an emergency exit ...
How many of the frequent fliers listen to the safety briefing/read the cards? I know many do, and hats off to them. The rest of you "I've been on a 7x7 a hundred times, so I can read my newspaper instead" are a problem.
Not every aircraft of the same type is the same. Do well to remember that.
I always count the seat-rows to the nearest exit I might need. Having done plenty of training evacs, can tell you that smoke is kinda difficult to see through.
And as for kids/elderly/overweight/disabled at an emergency exit ...
Hopefully on topic.........
Early 90'ties, China domestic flight, half full Tupolev 154. Me seated in B, no seat where A should be, just a crate. Instruction printed on crate:
1. Open emergency exit, throw door out. Check (Just outside with inches to spare was a small jet engine.)
2. Open crate door. Check
3. Take out slide and remove ropes. Check
4. Throw slide out window. Check
5. Open valve on gas bottle. Check
No, no one asked if I was fit for the job. No one gave me any instruction and nothing happened that required me to put on my super hero costume. Just as well, had probably mixed up 4. and 5.
Per
Early 90'ties, China domestic flight, half full Tupolev 154. Me seated in B, no seat where A should be, just a crate. Instruction printed on crate:
1. Open emergency exit, throw door out. Check (Just outside with inches to spare was a small jet engine.)
2. Open crate door. Check
3. Take out slide and remove ropes. Check
4. Throw slide out window. Check
5. Open valve on gas bottle. Check
No, no one asked if I was fit for the job. No one gave me any instruction and nothing happened that required me to put on my super hero costume. Just as well, had probably mixed up 4. and 5.
Per
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CR2:
While it exempts me from the exit rows by travelling with him, my son is young enough to be fascinated by the safety cards so we get to study them closely and explain what all the pictures mean long before pushback.
OFBSLF:
JAR 25.809 states "The means of opening emergency exits must be simple and obvious and may not require exceptional effort.'"
It's notable in some accident reports where cabin crew have reported difficulty opening exit doors. In a lot of cases this is because what's used in the simulator doesn't behave quite the same as a real door. Such as:-
Anyone who wants the full blurb can visit http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_503037.pdf which is where I got the text above. There was nothing wrong with the door.
How many of the frequent fliers listen to the safety briefing/read the cards? I know many do, and hats off to them. The rest of you "I've been on a 7x7 a hundred times, so I can read my newspaper instead" are a problem.
OFBSLF:
Would a flight crew member be able to better operate an emergency exit than I?
It's notable in some accident reports where cabin crew have reported difficulty opening exit doors. In a lot of cases this is because what's used in the simulator doesn't behave quite the same as a real door. Such as:-
Door 4R was reportedly very heavy to operate and passenger assistance was requested by the attendant, who thought that the door assist system had failed. The door and rigging were later checked and no faults were found, however the door assist actuator was returned to Airbus Industrie for investigation and use in trials, the results of which are described later in this report.
