Drama on First Choice

[A Very Civil Pilot]

and that we'd now passed Bermuda

Obvious - Bermuda Triangle, giant squid caught in the landing gear.

[212man]

"plane thought it was still on ground"

Sounds like a management ploy to extend flying duty times! (sure it wasn't an Emirates flight?)

[strid]

Ok guys as you've noticed it seems i've posted in the wrong section and for that i do apologize.
However, yes I'm only a passenger, just the same as the other 200+ on board and all i was trying to figure was exactly what the issue was because it wasn't clear from the flight deck, and that was my main point - a lack of correspondence between the two rather important parties when i feel more would have been beneficial.
I do know the sound diff between gear and flaps and as i could see the wing i knew we were 'clean'.
I also know the diff between engine noise being idle / full on and i dare say the diff between buffeting and turbulence.
As I mentioned in the 1st post - it was the Capt who finally declared that the issue revolved around the aircraft and a pc software fault -and i quote his words, 'it thought it was still on the ground' - he also stated that a divert was also considered at one point??.
Even though i've posted in the wrong section i must say that some of the responses here are a little harsh.
Essentially my points were only as follows:

1. Something did happen - does anyone know exactly what?
2. There was a good proportion of very nervous passengers who on hearing unexpected noises and vibrations start a con effect on the rest, would more correspondence between flight/cabin crew had a soothing effect?

[Topslide6]

For what it's worth, I reckon the vast majority of flight crew are mindful of keeping the passengers fully informed in a non-normal situation.

However, i'm becoming increasingly fed up of hearing that passengers (not all, but the "instant experts" flyinthesky refers to) are, for example, abusing our cabin crew because "you've nearly just killed us all. We've nearly just flown into another aircraft (just the normal 1000' RVSM separation). I've worked at Heathrow for 40 years so I know".

Communication between the cabin and the flight deck is very important and it's not simply a case of rubbishing what passengers say, but I wouldn't sit whilst a doctor put a pot on my leg, for example, and say "i'm not entirely sure that's best practice".

This sounds to me like a bit of a non-event and i'm afraid that what a passenger might think is something out of the ordinary is probably not enough to make the pilots put their coffee down. If it is, and the situation dictates, then you will be informed in due course.

If you believe there is a problem raise it wih your cabin crew. Don't post it on a forum under the title "drama on First Choice". If you post in a Professional Pilot's forum with comments like that you are going to get that response i'm
afraid.

Dog_ears, you sound like a very switched on cookie. Well said!

edited to say the post below is the extremely well put!!

[Andy_S]

flyinthesky if you re read the original post you will see it is of an enquiring nature rather than casting aspersions

Actually, if you read the original post, aspersions ARE being cast....
Speaking as an SLF myself (and I'll try and be brief and not outstay my welcome), my immediate reaction was that if the original poster recognised the sounds of audible alarms in the cockpit and landing gear being lowered and raised, and was also familiar with crew behaviour, then he/she is clearly not a complete novice when it comes to air travel. As such, if he/she raises questions about the way the supposed incident was handled, then perhaps he/she ought to be prepared for some blunt responses.
Surely a bit of commonsense was all that was needed. If the aircraft was in any real difficulty then a professional pilot is hardly going to carry on regardless. Reference was made to a call to control; I would suggest that the fact such a call took place is evidence that the pilot had the aircraft under full control and did not believe there was any threat to the safety of the passengers and crew. Finally, and most obviously, I don't believe the flight crew want to be involved in an accident any more than the passengers do; if they are happy for the flight to continue then I, for one, would have complete confidence in their judgement.
I'm afraid I'm with Rainboe on this one. If every in-flight technical problem that ever occured was raised on PPRuNe by partially informed passengers, then the site would collapse. These things happen every day, and for the most part are dealt with routinely.
But like I say, I'm SLF myself, so I'd better be on my way.....

[Rainboe]

Couldn't agree more. So strid, whatever minor situation that passed, by your own admission an exlanatory PA was made, there was no 'drama' except apparently in your own mind, and i don't think it fair for you to malign the good name of an excellent operator like First Choice as in your title.

Therefore would you be so kind as to remove this rubbish by pulling up your first post and deleting it- hopefully the whole thread will vanish to that place where our recycled rubbish goes? (India or China maybe).

[wombat13]

My two pennies worth. I fly scheduled more than most, mostly OneWorld (CX).

I made a flight from HK to SIN with CX in July '99 on a 773, when the port engine went to sleep. Not for a minute would I minimise the training and skill that was needed to bring us back to HK (we were about 25 minutes out), but it was the routine way it was treated by all. I had a pretty good idea from the word go that it was a loss of an engine (went quieter and lurched to the left....).

It was quite a while before the guy up front came on the PA, although I can't remember just how long, (p1ssed). When he did come on and explain it, the first thing that came to mind was "get off the PA and fly the bleeding plane".

Can't please all, can you?

The Wombat

[Topslide6]

You might want to take a look here.....

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232080

[parabellum]

If the seat belt sign was in an Auto position and the air/ground switch was malfunctioning, "aircraft thinks it is on the ground", the seat belt sign wouldn't go off anyway would it? Pilots probably didn't realise this being pre occupied so maybe the CC Chief should have contacted the Flight Deck a bit quicker? Just thoughts, I wasn't there either!

[ajamieson]

Originally Posted by flyinthesky

when I go to Tesco/ my bank or anywhere else that uses technology, I do not automatically insist/expect an indepth update, the minute said technology throws a wobbler.

Utterly ridiculous analogy.

Originally Posted by Dogs_ears_up

As the Cabin Supervisor, I would consider it as one of my duties to relay information of the mood in the cabin to the Captain, and to suggest communication if I considered it appropriate. In the event that the Flight Crew were too busy, I would seek permission to make a "holding" PA myself, pending a later, more authoritative PA from the Captain. In short, Cabin Crew are part of the team, working in the cabin on behalf of the Captain, and he/she relies on them to handle some aspects of the communication/people duties on his/her behalf.
P.S. This is not a criticsm of the crew involved: I was not there and cannot know - this is merely an observation, intended to clarify a question.
P.P.S. I have been flying long enough to know when is not an appropriate time to be troubling busy Flight Crew with cabin communication issues.
P.P.P.S. This is not an attempt to erode the authority of the Captain, or to exaggerate the role and importance of the Cabin Team

Dogs_ears_up:

[niknak]

For what it's worth, in the same situation, I would have an a very good idea that there was something amiss and because I know that it's a very busy time for all the crew, I wouldn't be too concerned, I would accept that they are people who can resolve the problem and would sit back and let them get on with it.

However, the vast majority of passengers are not aviation professionals, they don't know what goes on when something unusual happens and they are entitled to be told something, even if it is a firm announcement from the cabin services director that they are to remain in their seats, a minor technicality is being dealt with and further information will follow.

As a long standing aviation professional and a very regular traveller, it strikes me that the airline operators (NOT the crew) are too reliant on pre recorded safety briefings and there is very little inter personal contact with the SLF.
I know that todays market is all about rush rush rush, make a profit and bugger what the customer thinks, but a little more inter personal contact with the people who provide the custom to airlines would make a big difference in the thinking of passengers perceptions and opinions.

[Atishoo]

Rainoe at his usual caring best

[hobie]

It's a pity the early response could not have been to simply suggest to 'strid' that his thread be re-posted in a more appropriate forum (it's very simple to do) ...... it may well have stimulated some good discussion in an engineering direction .....

I can't believe some of the banter that goes on does any good to the Heart condition of some of the posters .......

[J.O.]

Well said Hobie. Unfortunately, some folks don't seem to have a Heart at all to worry about.

[ISO100]

Rainboe,

In my opinion Rude Arrogant, Patronising Ill-considered, Opinionated, hardly demonstrating a professional attitude on here and the same goes for your followers. No doubt you are proud of it too.

All jumping to conclusions and making judgements without being aware of the facts of the particular case being enquired into. Yet you have the temerity to lambaste the people who pay your salaries for doing exactly the same thing!! You may regard your passengers as idiots but more fool you and I would suggest that if this is what you think of us its time you retired. I for one would not want to place my life in your hands based on what I see in this thread.

Yes the thread should not have been posted here, quite right but you do absolutely nothing to recommend your profession to the PAYING public in the way you point that out.

Yes, I know….. you just couldn’t give a damn, Right….?

[mikehammer]

Dogs Ears, whilst echoing the thoughts of others supporting your post, it strikes me that something is still missing from modern CRM that you felt the need to qualify your point with so much post script. Mind you, from some of the haughtiness here I can see why you might feel the need.

I for one sincerely hope ALL members of the crew have the same attitude as you do.

[grimmrad]

Couldn't agree more

"There is a rather unpleasant habit on PPRUNE to rubbish SLF contributions as "being ignorant and clearly not knowing what they are talking about"

Unfortunately this is true and seems to be stated more and more often (but I have also seen often nice replies on similar questions on this forum). Now, I am SLF and in some persons view not even worthy enough of reading this forum. I am a radiologist and do research and fly a lot for that, thus my interest.

As an example from another field - how would YOU feel, if we physicians were standing in front of your chest X-ray and were discussing it (in our lingo) in front of you and you realize that something is wrong? Probably uncomfortable and demanding an explanation quickly, or? Could be just a normal variation or some interesting but irrelevant incidental finding - but you would probably be worried like hell (thats why I do not do that btw). Now, I guess that is similar to what the poster felt, the SLF on whose money much of the industries depends.

Now you can go and delete this post and throw the rotten eggs at me...

[Rainboe]

Yes the thread should not have been posted here, quite right but you do absolutely nothing to recommend your profession to the PAYING public in the way you point that out.

What complete and utter tosh! The great paying public can push off! What part of 'Professional Pilots Rumour Network' don't they understand? This is meant to be primarily a Prof Pilot discussion network, not an 'I had a bad bumpy flight and I want to bitch network' Network. There are Passenger Forums elsewhere to push off to. It's becoming increasingly difficult to carry out a meaningful dialogue here about professional matters without people bitching about suitcases being lost 'and why didn't the Captain talk to me?' as if a full explanation of any incident is due. Any dialogue is swamped by flight simmers pretending to be pilots and aviation enthusiasts getting an oar in. Whilst outside contact is not desired to be limited, there is a limit where any passenger having a beef about something he didn't like on his flight can demand an explanation. So if they are going to put their head in a lions den, don't grumble when it gets bitten. This is a off-duty pilots discussion forum. The welcoming smile comes off with the uniform! Don't expect hospitality. Go to one of the many passenger forums where mutual grumbling can take place. This is not an airline customer service area!

And grimmrad, the customer has chosen to go into the medical common room and start asking questions. He cannot start saying there that any comments made are out of order. Those things are not said in the waiting room, but the medical professionals, in private conversation....no holds barred. Don't go into their area if you don't want to hear plain talk!

[Scimitar]

Cracking post, Rainboe! You just keep on telling them, until at last maybe they'll understand that this really is a forum for professional pilots. I just love it - and don't start mincing words now, will you?

[Topslide6]

grimmrad,

with respect, where does it stop? Are you suggesting that each time the speedbrake is deployed a PA is made to explain the buffeting it causes. Surely not.

ISO100,

I don't for one minute think that rainboe regards all his passengers as idiots. Some maybe, because without question, some of them will be. I think the tone of your post, however, is exactly what pilots who use this forum are becoming increasingly fed up with. You don't pay my salary. My company does. The fact that you might buy 1, 10 or a 100 tickets or year does not convey upon you the right to talk to flight crews in the manner you seem to think is appropriate when discussing professional matters. In fact, the way I hear certain types of passenger talking to cabin crew on an almost daily basis is an absolute disgrace.

If the crew in question were to read this, they surely wouldn't be particularly chuffed to have someone who is in no way qualified to comment, casting aspertions on their professional abilities on a public forum. Whether you, or any other passenger think a PA is appropriate or not is, frankly, not top of the list of priorities in a non-normal situation. Of course crews will do their best to keep the passengers informed. Whether it could have been done differently is to be left to the debrief, and the debrief does not take place here.

edited to say well done to the mod for moving this