Aborted landings/Go-Arounds
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I am not sure I would want my whole working day monitored, so I have sympathy on that point, but IF an airline decides it wishes to provide this service to its customers then they have given me the right to listen and removed your right to privacy - the gripe would be with them.
I think the crew need to take a look at their superiority complexes which lead them to believe it is nothing to do with the pax. This smacks of the old days when the F/O was not allowed to question to Pilot's decisions and how many accidents resulted from that? I was reminded of the Kegworth disaster in a post recently and advised to always mention to the cabin crew if I thought there may be a problem with the aircraft - maybe if the pax had heard the cockpit audio and seen that the wrong engine was being shutdown, that whole disaster could have been averted? Perhaps a very experienced aviator is on board and may be able to assist if there is a problem on a flight - I remember a flight that crashed in the US many years ago where a pax turned out to be a pilot who assisted in operating the throttles when things went bad. There could be situations where we would have an input, but these are rare cases and of course I wouldn't be phoning my lawyer from on-board.
On the other hand I can accept that some pax may react badly to listening to information that they don't understand, and that those listening would have a responsibility to deal with what they hear correctly. As with TV etc, those who don't wish to listen can turn off.
I think the crew need to take a look at their superiority complexes which lead them to believe it is nothing to do with the pax. This smacks of the old days when the F/O was not allowed to question to Pilot's decisions and how many accidents resulted from that? I was reminded of the Kegworth disaster in a post recently and advised to always mention to the cabin crew if I thought there may be a problem with the aircraft - maybe if the pax had heard the cockpit audio and seen that the wrong engine was being shutdown, that whole disaster could have been averted? Perhaps a very experienced aviator is on board and may be able to assist if there is a problem on a flight - I remember a flight that crashed in the US many years ago where a pax turned out to be a pilot who assisted in operating the throttles when things went bad. There could be situations where we would have an input, but these are rare cases and of course I wouldn't be phoning my lawyer from on-board.
On the other hand I can accept that some pax may react badly to listening to information that they don't understand, and that those listening would have a responsibility to deal with what they hear correctly. As with TV etc, those who don't wish to listen can turn off.
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TopBunk
TB, I checked the AIP and I could find no reference anymore to the procedure where you use the ILS 22 to land on 24. Perhaps it was indeed removed as an official procedure for noise reasons. I don't know. It is true that the ILS 22 takes planes more or less over the center of Amsterdam. OTOH - in a storm who's going to hear an aircraft overhead at 2000'?
Another reason might indeed be that now that the Polderbaan (18R/36L) is open, this runway is favoured above all others due to noise pollution reasons - although I know quite a few people living near the 18R approach path that do not agree...
BTW at or about the same time the Polderbaan (18R/36L) was commissioned, the earths magnetic field apparently had shifted so much that they also renamed the other two N/S runways. We now have 18R/36L (Polderbaan), 18C/36C (Zwanenburgbaan), 18L/36R (Aalsmeerbaan), 06/24 (Kaagbaan), 09/27 (Buitenveldertbaan or Bulderbaan) and 04/22 (Schiphol Oost baan).
Another reason might indeed be that now that the Polderbaan (18R/36L) is open, this runway is favoured above all others due to noise pollution reasons - although I know quite a few people living near the 18R approach path that do not agree...
BTW at or about the same time the Polderbaan (18R/36L) was commissioned, the earths magnetic field apparently had shifted so much that they also renamed the other two N/S runways. We now have 18R/36L (Polderbaan), 18C/36C (Zwanenburgbaan), 18L/36R (Aalsmeerbaan), 06/24 (Kaagbaan), 09/27 (Buitenveldertbaan or Bulderbaan) and 04/22 (Schiphol Oost baan).
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I am not there to provide entertainment for passenger amusement. The same would go for any external video cameras.
Ignorance is bliss.
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I haven't been on United Airlines in many a year. Back when I rode them more frequently I found that "Channel 9", the ATC channel, was activated only about half the time.
Back to the subject of this thread, I rode what I think is my first go around in over 50 years of air travel on March 10. We were approaching Cleveland KCLE in very dense clouds. I couldn't see the wingtip it was so thick. Eventually we went back up. On the second approach we broke out of the clouds at a few hundred feet altitude. The route of my flight shown on Fl***tAw**e showed a one-loop holding pattern just before the airport. That flight/number was replaced the next day when the USA went on Summer Time (DST).
Back to the subject of this thread, I rode what I think is my first go around in over 50 years of air travel on March 10. We were approaching Cleveland KCLE in very dense clouds. I couldn't see the wingtip it was so thick. Eventually we went back up. On the second approach we broke out of the clouds at a few hundred feet altitude. The route of my flight shown on Fl***tAw**e showed a one-loop holding pattern just before the airport. That flight/number was replaced the next day when the USA went on Summer Time (DST).
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Backpacker
I didn't mention that procedure
.
What I said was that I had only once ever landed on rwy 22 in over 100 visits and never on rwy 24.
Maybe you are thinking of another post.
I didn't mention that procedure
.What I said was that I had only once ever landed on rwy 22 in over 100 visits and never on rwy 24.
Maybe you are thinking of another post.
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Brummygit
No, that haven't. They have provided me with the option to activate the feed, just in the same way that they give me control of the seatbelt signs. I decide what you can hear in the same way as I decide when you can move about the cabin and when hot drinks can be served.
My working day is already monitored more intensely than you probably realise - every second of every flight is replayed by the company to ensure procedures are followed and the aircraft is operated within all limits, so don't tell me about aircrew 'superiority'.
What I do not think is prudent is for untrained ears to put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5 with only 10% of the available information at their fingertips. We all know how quick people are to ring up the press with often unproven sensational stories that damage individuals and companies.
My take on a live ATC feed is that it is something dreamt up by marketing teams as a gimick - I repeat, it will never be enabled on any flight I command. If you don't like that - tough!
I am not sure I would want my whole working day monitored, so I have sympathy on that point, but IF an airline decides it wishes to provide this service to its customers then they have given me the right to listen and removed your right to privacy - the gripe would be with them.
My working day is already monitored more intensely than you probably realise - every second of every flight is replayed by the company to ensure procedures are followed and the aircraft is operated within all limits, so don't tell me about aircrew 'superiority'.
What I do not think is prudent is for untrained ears to put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5 with only 10% of the available information at their fingertips. We all know how quick people are to ring up the press with often unproven sensational stories that damage individuals and companies.
My take on a live ATC feed is that it is something dreamt up by marketing teams as a gimick - I repeat, it will never be enabled on any flight I command. If you don't like that - tough!
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As pacer142 said - this subject is very polarised and so rather than degenerate this thread into an argument I think I'll back away from further inflaming the situation.
I do miss the pre-9/11 days however. I got invited to ride in the jump seat of a Sabena 146 from just after take off from Brussels until after landing at BHX one time, and many flights used to leave to cockpit door open for the duration of the flight. This was all very comforting for a nervous flyer and these days of locked and bolted cockpit doors are much less fun for the white knuckle riders amongst us. Sadly those days appear to be gone forever.
I do miss the pre-9/11 days however. I got invited to ride in the jump seat of a Sabena 146 from just after take off from Brussels until after landing at BHX one time, and many flights used to leave to cockpit door open for the duration of the flight. This was all very comforting for a nervous flyer and these days of locked and bolted cockpit doors are much less fun for the white knuckle riders amongst us. Sadly those days appear to be gone forever.
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My first experience of a go-around was in November 1984 when returning to BFS from LGW with the future Mrs. Frequentflyer on a Dan Air 1/11.
As I remember it took four attempts to land because of fog over the runway and the pilot came on the intercom to tell us he was 'embarrassed' to say a British Midland DC9 had managed to get in between our attempts.
He also said if he couldn't do it we would have to divert to DUB.
As we descended again only to power up and climb back into the sky I can remember the woman sitting behind me saying: "Oh please. Just go to Dublin."
I had no more experience of go arounds until a few years ago when Mrs. Frequentflyer and I were on board an Embraer 145 travelling from BHD to MAN.
During the final stages of the descent over Stockport the plane lurched violently from side to side. The first lurch meant we were looking down the wing at the ground and less than a second later, or so it seemed, we were looking up the wing at the sky.
The pilot immediately accelerated and climbed before telling us we had encountered the wake vortex of a much larger aircraft.
On Christmas Eve 1997 we were approaching Manchester in an ATP in the roughest flying I've ever experienced.
I went so far as to warn Mrs. Frequentflyer a go-around was a strong possibility but when it actually came to landing we hardly felt the wheels touch the ground.
As I remember it took four attempts to land because of fog over the runway and the pilot came on the intercom to tell us he was 'embarrassed' to say a British Midland DC9 had managed to get in between our attempts.
He also said if he couldn't do it we would have to divert to DUB.
As we descended again only to power up and climb back into the sky I can remember the woman sitting behind me saying: "Oh please. Just go to Dublin."
I had no more experience of go arounds until a few years ago when Mrs. Frequentflyer and I were on board an Embraer 145 travelling from BHD to MAN.
During the final stages of the descent over Stockport the plane lurched violently from side to side. The first lurch meant we were looking down the wing at the ground and less than a second later, or so it seemed, we were looking up the wing at the sky.
The pilot immediately accelerated and climbed before telling us we had encountered the wake vortex of a much larger aircraft.
On Christmas Eve 1997 we were approaching Manchester in an ATP in the roughest flying I've ever experienced.
I went so far as to warn Mrs. Frequentflyer a go-around was a strong possibility but when it actually came to landing we hardly felt the wheels touch the ground.
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Top Bunk,
I agree with your attitude to the live feed,the vast majority of SLF are (in my experience) at least slightly nervous and to have one listening to the live feed and spreading possible panic is the last thing we all need.
Regarding the cameras am I right in thinking that generally during takeoff and landing the films/TV would be off anyway so also would an external camera view ?
Gavin (SLF)
I agree with your attitude to the live feed,the vast majority of SLF are (in my experience) at least slightly nervous and to have one listening to the live feed and spreading possible panic is the last thing we all need.
Regarding the cameras am I right in thinking that generally during takeoff and landing the films/TV would be off anyway so also would an external camera view ?
Gavin (SLF)
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I can only comment based what I've seen/heard in my flying. The only external camera's I've seen used are on SAS. Cameras were generally on forward facing during takeoff and landing.
As for Untied's channel 9. I'm not sure what people are assuming it is or isn't, but if I recall correctly, its just whatever ATC the pilots are communicating with, and their responses. On occasion you'll hear other pilots reading back instructions, that's about it. Any other communication .. such as those within the cockpit, or if a pilot were to contact the company are not included.
Most of the time UA pilots will make it available. Some will turn it off for takeoff and landing. Frankly, its not very entertaining most of the time...particularly over the Pacific at 4am local time.
As for Untied's channel 9. I'm not sure what people are assuming it is or isn't, but if I recall correctly, its just whatever ATC the pilots are communicating with, and their responses. On occasion you'll hear other pilots reading back instructions, that's about it. Any other communication .. such as those within the cockpit, or if a pilot were to contact the company are not included.
Most of the time UA pilots will make it available. Some will turn it off for takeoff and landing. Frankly, its not very entertaining most of the time...particularly over the Pacific at 4am local time.
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I've flown JAL long-haul a few times and the external camera has always been on for the whole flight - including landing - right up to the point where we're parked at the terminal. As stated, pretty tedious during the flight but great fun when coming into Kansai, low over the water. They even display it on the main cabin screens during landing, so you don't have to go looking for it.
Don't see the problem myself, but I'm happy to let El Capitano have the final call if he's agin it. I'd rather be flown by a comfortable and non-tetchy pilot any day.
Don't see the problem myself, but I'm happy to let El Capitano have the final call if he's agin it. I'd rather be flown by a comfortable and non-tetchy pilot any day.
I had it happen once on a flight from CGK into SIN on an SIA 777. Just as we came into land, and I think the wheels made contact, the engines suddenly roared and back up we went, much to my surprise!
Fairly quickly the Captain came on and said very calmly that a strong tailwind had blown up as we were landing that was too strong for that type of aircraft to land in, so we would have to go around.
Luckily I was in Raffles Class so the guy I was sitting next to and I called for a drink to calm our nerves...
Fairly quickly the Captain came on and said very calmly that a strong tailwind had blown up as we were landing that was too strong for that type of aircraft to land in, so we would have to go around.
Luckily I was in Raffles Class so the guy I was sitting next to and I called for a drink to calm our nerves...
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as a cabin crew member i have flown with easyjet for just over a year, last summer we were coming in to land at AGP (malaga) and had to do a go around at 80ft (or so the pilots said!) we were immediately pushed into our seats as the plane powered up and gained height then lifted off our seats as they straightened out. It took a little while for us to realise what was going on but we were soon aware of what happened.
The main thing we have to do in this situation is re-assure the passengers sat around us and the purser has to make a PA to tell everyone of what has happened. Once the pilots are in a possition to do so they also make a PA tell confirm what has happened and why. In this case there was another aircraft on the radio, speaking in spanish and our pilots couldn't get a word in edgeways to ask for clearence to land, so at 80ft they had to abort the landing. They then telephoned us to check that we were ok and ask how the passengers were.
The weird thing is on disembarkation none of the passengers believed why we had to go around they all thought that there was something wrong with the aircraft, some of them even blaming easyjet for it!! but for me i found it quite exciting, like being on a roller coaster! The aircraft (as i see quite alot of people here always like to know!) was a B737-700
The main thing we have to do in this situation is re-assure the passengers sat around us and the purser has to make a PA to tell everyone of what has happened. Once the pilots are in a possition to do so they also make a PA tell confirm what has happened and why. In this case there was another aircraft on the radio, speaking in spanish and our pilots couldn't get a word in edgeways to ask for clearence to land, so at 80ft they had to abort the landing. They then telephoned us to check that we were ok and ask how the passengers were.
The weird thing is on disembarkation none of the passengers believed why we had to go around they all thought that there was something wrong with the aircraft, some of them even blaming easyjet for it!! but for me i found it quite exciting, like being on a roller coaster! The aircraft (as i see quite alot of people here always like to know!) was a B737-700
Paxing All Over The World
johnezy
That sums it all up! On almost any day the pax are gonna blame the carrier and the staff that they can see in front of them. 
thought that there was something wrong with the aircraft, some of them even blaming easyjet for it!!
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yeah this is very true, and don't i know it lol! still not bad over 650 flights and only 1 go around! you'd think that flying that much i would have more stories lol!
ThRedBearOne
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Two in one flight being trooped into Aldergrove by VC10 many, many (but not too many!!) years ago. I only remember much bouncing and battering rain very close to the deck. A remarkable ride which ended with a greaser. More fun than DisneyWorld.
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On almost any day the pax are gonna blame the carrier and the staff that they can see in front of them.
).Who amongst us has not at least felt the urge to rip into some call centre's cold-calling lackey, after being dragged from the bath by a ringing phone?
It's an unfortunate fact that any kind of customer-facing role will mean absorbing a lot of sh1te that isn't strictly "ours".
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Dear Topbunk
Be glad you have the choice about your RT being monitored by your customers! As a controller, I can see spotters from the tower every day, scanners poking out of their anoraks. On my way home, I've passed them and heard them discussing how they would have done things better...
Be glad you have the choice about your RT being monitored by your customers! As a controller, I can see spotters from the tower every day, scanners poking out of their anoraks. On my way home, I've passed them and heard them discussing how they would have done things better...
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35 years of flying - about 10-20 flights per year (on average) and I have my first go around coming into Belfast in early Decemebr 2006. Wasn't really a suprise given the lead up to it.
Easyjet 737-700 Luton to Belfast, short hop between cities. It is never a really smooth flight given the route, especially in the winter. Take off is choppy and as they always seem to go up to FL410, the aircraft bumps between transition layers (hope that is the right term). And the landings - well, smooth is not a word you would use for BFS!!
This flight was going to prove that to the max.
The Captain asked the cabin crew to prepare for landing early as he was expecting "a really bumpy ride for the last 20 muinutes". Everyone strapped in, gripped the arm rests and chatted nervously- a truly jittery cabin of passengers - and then the ride began!!
Coming in over the bay, setting up for a normal approach, the bumps start. Broken cloud means we can see the ground and get a real impression of the undulations of the aircraft. At this stage, it was nothing to bumpy - unpleasent, yes, but not anywhere near as bad as I have had in the past on this very route.
Alas I relaxed too soon. At around 3000ft, lining up on finals, it got very rough. You could feel the aircraft shimmering as it swayed. Between the right wing dipping, yawing to the left and the nose pushing downwards, gasps prevailled around the cabin. I was willing the pilots to hold it whispering to myself" Come on, get it" as we swang from one impossible angle to another. The engines spooled up and down as the air crew fought to hold the ILS. It was a valiant effort.
But just as the perimeter fence came under our belly, even their vailant efforts were to no avail. A huge wind sheer sprung up and threw us towards the ground, the right wing dipping dangerously close to the grass. People gasped, cabin crew looked shocked - and the the pilots? - well they did exactly what they had trained to do and threw the thorttles wide open and executed a go around.
We were about 100ft from the run way and pow!! Those engines can surely go when the want to. Sharp bank to the right and away we climb.
Announcements made to reassure a very shocked and neervous cabin. Captain says "...too dangerous to continue the approach...."
We cleared off to a holding pattern over the bay and waited for the weather to calm down. 20 minutes of circling at the base of the thicking clouds - very bumpy, but I don't think anyone cared as long as we were flying, and not in that tumble dryer of an approach.
So we try again and to the relief of everyone, the next approach was normal and somewhat un-eventful. We landed, taxied and departed in silence.
Passengers phoned loved ones, consolled each other whilst waiting for their luggage.
The pilots walked in in thir shirt sleeves. All looked on expecting a harried pair, sweating buckets. But they were dry as anythiing, calm and looked generally happy with themselves.
Could they not have looekd just a little flustered - to at least make us nerve trodden passengers feel like it was actually as bad as it felt????
Obviously not!
Training, skill and a love of flying - the qualities that makes passengers trust pilots with their lives.
Easyjet 737-700 Luton to Belfast, short hop between cities. It is never a really smooth flight given the route, especially in the winter. Take off is choppy and as they always seem to go up to FL410, the aircraft bumps between transition layers (hope that is the right term). And the landings - well, smooth is not a word you would use for BFS!!
This flight was going to prove that to the max.
The Captain asked the cabin crew to prepare for landing early as he was expecting "a really bumpy ride for the last 20 muinutes". Everyone strapped in, gripped the arm rests and chatted nervously- a truly jittery cabin of passengers - and then the ride began!!
Coming in over the bay, setting up for a normal approach, the bumps start. Broken cloud means we can see the ground and get a real impression of the undulations of the aircraft. At this stage, it was nothing to bumpy - unpleasent, yes, but not anywhere near as bad as I have had in the past on this very route.
Alas I relaxed too soon. At around 3000ft, lining up on finals, it got very rough. You could feel the aircraft shimmering as it swayed. Between the right wing dipping, yawing to the left and the nose pushing downwards, gasps prevailled around the cabin. I was willing the pilots to hold it whispering to myself" Come on, get it" as we swang from one impossible angle to another. The engines spooled up and down as the air crew fought to hold the ILS. It was a valiant effort.
But just as the perimeter fence came under our belly, even their vailant efforts were to no avail. A huge wind sheer sprung up and threw us towards the ground, the right wing dipping dangerously close to the grass. People gasped, cabin crew looked shocked - and the the pilots? - well they did exactly what they had trained to do and threw the thorttles wide open and executed a go around.
We were about 100ft from the run way and pow!! Those engines can surely go when the want to. Sharp bank to the right and away we climb.
Announcements made to reassure a very shocked and neervous cabin. Captain says "...too dangerous to continue the approach...."
We cleared off to a holding pattern over the bay and waited for the weather to calm down. 20 minutes of circling at the base of the thicking clouds - very bumpy, but I don't think anyone cared as long as we were flying, and not in that tumble dryer of an approach.
So we try again and to the relief of everyone, the next approach was normal and somewhat un-eventful. We landed, taxied and departed in silence.
Passengers phoned loved ones, consolled each other whilst waiting for their luggage.
The pilots walked in in thir shirt sleeves. All looked on expecting a harried pair, sweating buckets. But they were dry as anythiing, calm and looked generally happy with themselves.
Could they not have looekd just a little flustered - to at least make us nerve trodden passengers feel like it was actually as bad as it felt????
Obviously not!
Training, skill and a love of flying - the qualities that makes passengers trust pilots with their lives.
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3 and 2 half GAs
Zurich - GA twice. Terrible weather, not stabilised on the first approach, second GA was a surprise to us pax but the captain later said that the tower gave him warning of wind sheer(?) , he said that if we did not get in third time we would divert. Third approach no problem, lots of power pretty smooth all the way down. It was pretty scary however on the first/second.
Basle(I think), not quite a GA, Turboprop on finals for one runway had the runway changed at the last minute. No reason given but getting off the plane I asked the captain and he said "Ah, you noticed! I haven't landed on that one for a while and I thought I would just practice" - never did find out the real reason.
Geneva - again a turboprop I think, did not get confirmation of undercarriage locked down, ok 2nd time around but we did get a fire-engine escort on each side down the runway.
Best ever not quite GA was SAS into Seattle/Tacoma, there was a camera on the nose wheel and most of us where pretty sure that he was lined up to land on the highway until a Hard Left/Hard Right or was it hardRight/HardLeft put us back on track. Whether it was really the highway or just a mix-up with a LH and RH runway (are there two at SEA?) I do not know. So much for all the modern nav-aids!
That's my lot for over 20yrs approx 2000 flights.
Basle(I think), not quite a GA, Turboprop on finals for one runway had the runway changed at the last minute. No reason given but getting off the plane I asked the captain and he said "Ah, you noticed! I haven't landed on that one for a while and I thought I would just practice" - never did find out the real reason.
Geneva - again a turboprop I think, did not get confirmation of undercarriage locked down, ok 2nd time around but we did get a fire-engine escort on each side down the runway.
Best ever not quite GA was SAS into Seattle/Tacoma, there was a camera on the nose wheel and most of us where pretty sure that he was lined up to land on the highway until a Hard Left/Hard Right or was it hardRight/HardLeft put us back on track. Whether it was really the highway or just a mix-up with a LH and RH runway (are there two at SEA?) I do not know. So much for all the modern nav-aids!
That's my lot for over 20yrs approx 2000 flights.
