Don’t call me sweetheart MK II
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So how do you feel about the cabin crew calling the the Captain: Darl or Doll. It's happened to me on occasions but I must admit, none of the male cabin crew have called me that! 
Personally I don't mind too much as long as "the respect" is shown at the correct time, that goes in both directions !
Personally I don't mind too much as long as "the respect" is shown at the correct time, that goes in both directions !
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Doesn't sound like an abuse of silly female power.
Sounds like:
1. Unacceptable behaviour from customers
2. Inadequate training on behalf of the airline concerned
and/or
3. Poor selection in cabin crew intake
The sitution could have been easily avoided. As a geography teacher in a HARD London school we come across these situations every 5 mins. Two things went wrong.
1. Never point a finger or use any threatening body language
2. Never threaten sanction without firm prior warnings in a polite and respectful mannor
ALWAYS make the decision to cooperate the customers choice and remind the customers contract to keep to saftey regulations and value the enjoyment of the flight for other people.
Just a thought?
Sounds like:
1. Unacceptable behaviour from customers
2. Inadequate training on behalf of the airline concerned
and/or
3. Poor selection in cabin crew intake
The sitution could have been easily avoided. As a geography teacher in a HARD London school we come across these situations every 5 mins. Two things went wrong.
1. Never point a finger or use any threatening body language
2. Never threaten sanction without firm prior warnings in a polite and respectful mannor
ALWAYS make the decision to cooperate the customers choice and remind the customers contract to keep to saftey regulations and value the enjoyment of the flight for other people.
Just a thought?
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If the incident was actually as described, opinions will be divided about whether the young FA dealt with it reasonably or turned a minor problem into a drama. It's unlikely all the fault was on one side, but we'll never know what really happened.
___________________________________
However, independently of the 'golfers' incident, the writer is a perceptive observer of human nature who makes some good points and raises thought-provoking issues.
I totally disagree that the article is "gibberish" as someone suggested or "written in a pseudo-academic style", as suggested by Dogs_ears_up. It's hardly the writer's fault if some readers become bogged down in the particular or are incapable of identifying the general propositions.
" ..... to bolster the dubous authority of the author (see, Cabin Crew can use big words too, just like grown-ups)."
The author doesn't claim authority.
He or she offers an opinion based on observations, and leaves it to the reader to decide whether the points have any merit.
Some posts on this thread, and others I've read in this forum previously, suggest there's more than a grain of truth in what the writer says.
Having an interest in the industry, I wander through most PPRuNe forums at some time or other and find this forum to be unique in one respect: Anything critical, or which can be interpreted as critical, of CC is almost invariably regarded as an attack or as a challenge to the 'status' of CC - and often met by defensive and/or aggressive responses.
The words under the title of this forum, 'The other half of the airborne team who put up with the self-loading freight', were probably written tongue in cheek, but it's an accurate reflection of views often expressed inside. Reading some posts, I wonder why the writer chooses to work in a service industry in a role which requires direct contact with the public, or more accurately, the customers whose money helps to keep the airline going and pays their wages.
And, there are far more references to using (or abusing) power, to calling the police etc, than there used to be.
The over-defensive types should take some comfort. When people criticise CC, it's criticism of specific conduct of one person, or what they perceive to be a particular problem caused by the attitude of some cabin attendants. At least you don't belong to a group which is universally loathed as a group - lawyers!
___________________________________
However, independently of the 'golfers' incident, the writer is a perceptive observer of human nature who makes some good points and raises thought-provoking issues.
I totally disagree that the article is "gibberish" as someone suggested or "written in a pseudo-academic style", as suggested by Dogs_ears_up. It's hardly the writer's fault if some readers become bogged down in the particular or are incapable of identifying the general propositions.
" ..... to bolster the dubous authority of the author (see, Cabin Crew can use big words too, just like grown-ups)."
The author doesn't claim authority.
He or she offers an opinion based on observations, and leaves it to the reader to decide whether the points have any merit. Some posts on this thread, and others I've read in this forum previously, suggest there's more than a grain of truth in what the writer says.
Having an interest in the industry, I wander through most PPRuNe forums at some time or other and find this forum to be unique in one respect: Anything critical, or which can be interpreted as critical, of CC is almost invariably regarded as an attack or as a challenge to the 'status' of CC - and often met by defensive and/or aggressive responses.
The words under the title of this forum, 'The other half of the airborne team who put up with the self-loading freight', were probably written tongue in cheek, but it's an accurate reflection of views often expressed inside. Reading some posts, I wonder why the writer chooses to work in a service industry in a role which requires direct contact with the public, or more accurately, the customers whose money helps to keep the airline going and pays their wages.
And, there are far more references to using (or abusing) power, to calling the police etc, than there used to be.
The over-defensive types should take some comfort. When people criticise CC, it's criticism of specific conduct of one person, or what they perceive to be a particular problem caused by the attitude of some cabin attendants. At least you don't belong to a group which is universally loathed as a group - lawyers!
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I think the article has merit. Too many posters have challenged the incident cited but have failed to identify the core issue it is highlighting. I’m an aviation professional and I do quite a bit of flying, quite a deal as a full fare passenger. I rarely identify myself as being in the business and as a passenger I am undemanding. When I fly “in the back” where the junior cc generally reside, I am at times astounded on their lack of aviation knowledge and professionalism. I have witnessed some contemptible behaviour by cc and I agree that unfortunately in the present “security” climate pax have no rights whatsoever. Any challenge on cc about their behaviour will be met by an abuse of their “power”. It’s a difficult issue, I agree. There are bad cc and there are bad pax. The answer must lie in better and more thorough training. But, in our cost-effective bean counter era, which airline (especially the LCCs) is going to invest in that?
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Bableton, as a youngish cabin crew member, I thank you for posting the article and understand your point.
I'd guess the FA's initial over the top reaction had one of two "psychological" reasons behind it:
a) Intimidation at having to confront a group of men older than her, or:
b) Desire to feed her ego by wielding her power over same.
(I'd feel (A) is probably more likely)
To me, it seems the whole situation was caused by the FA adopting an inappropriate initial approach - through inexperience rather than fault of her own. Faced with this, the passenger found it impossible to accept this perceived blow to his ego in front of his mates without retaliating - it's only human nature!
Again, thanks for posting - reinforces for me that making demands or threats is a last resort and the old adage of honey catching more flies than vinegar rings true for this profession as well as every other!
I'd guess the FA's initial over the top reaction had one of two "psychological" reasons behind it:
a) Intimidation at having to confront a group of men older than her, or:
b) Desire to feed her ego by wielding her power over same.
(I'd feel (A) is probably more likely)
To me, it seems the whole situation was caused by the FA adopting an inappropriate initial approach - through inexperience rather than fault of her own. Faced with this, the passenger found it impossible to accept this perceived blow to his ego in front of his mates without retaliating - it's only human nature!
Again, thanks for posting - reinforces for me that making demands or threats is a last resort and the old adage of honey catching more flies than vinegar rings true for this profession as well as every other!
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To me, it seems the whole situation was caused by the FA adopting an inappropriate initial approach - through inexperience rather than fault of her own. Faced with this, the passenger found it impossible to accept this perceived blow to his ego in front of his mates without retaliating - it's only human nature!
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That's absolutely true, of course, but the way I see it, we as crew should have the training and people skills to avoid inflaming a situation to the point where the passenger has a chance to display their self-control, or lack of. The situation that the OP described just didn't need to happen.
Drain Bamaged
well, most of the time we only hear about situations with bad ending.
I may be totally wrong but this kind of "pax" behaviour is pretty rare and this one could have been easily avoided right at the beginning with some tact, manners and....experience, instead of let it grow to an uncontrolled chaos.
I know, easy to say, another thing to do!
A very "close" friend of mine (no need to say more) is a FA/Purser. For the last ten years, she had to deal with thousands and thousands of men, women, kids and she recall only one person as beeing particulary "difficult" to handle. Difficult but not impossible.
I think it's not only about training but simply her overall attitude while working, the simple fact of just beeing a ---> enjoying her job probably killed in the egg a lot of potential desastrous situations like the one mentionned above.
I may be totally wrong but this kind of "pax" behaviour is pretty rare and this one could have been easily avoided right at the beginning with some tact, manners and....experience, instead of let it grow to an uncontrolled chaos.
I know, easy to say, another thing to do!
A very "close" friend of mine (no need to say more) is a FA/Purser. For the last ten years, she had to deal with thousands and thousands of men, women, kids and she recall only one person as beeing particulary "difficult" to handle. Difficult but not impossible.
I think it's not only about training but simply her overall attitude while working, the simple fact of just beeing a --->
enjoying her job probably killed in the egg a lot of potential desastrous situations like the one mentionned above.
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Following a trip to the cockpit, a few tears to the Captain
As far the comments that a captain always supports his CC, would the captain have supported the myriad of CC that have faked bomb threats abroad aircraft? Surely CC can't all be 100% correct in a 100% of situations, there are always some who are poorly trained or ill suited to the job.
When it comes to air travel pax are expected to behave as meek as mice (I am not condoning these mens behaviour BTW, just in general I mean) now otherwise the're termed trouble makers. The terrorists sure have won.
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Crowd Control
It is all about maintaining some semblance of accord amongst all pax.Part of solving a problem is identifying it before it becomes a problem...it takes years of experience to do that.You cannot squeeze 20 years of experience into a young head.That is why it is necessary to have a mix of age and experience for a crew to function effectively.Give that young person a few more years of experience and I am sure she will deal with a similar problem differently.
An ambience in the Cabin is paramount particularly during long sectors.Pax need to feel that there is understated order on board or else chaos replaces it.
An ambience in the Cabin is paramount particularly during long sectors.Pax need to feel that there is understated order on board or else chaos replaces it.
"YOU! Sit the f*ck down, shut the f*ck up or you'll be off this jet faster than $hit through a goose! DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR??!!"
Well, it would be nice to be able to get away with something like that, but sadly the huggy-fluffies would have a fit and gibber on about unsuitable body language, customer alienation or some similar crap, I guess.
Mind you, the red-haired Irish Number One on a buzz flight I was on a few years ago didn't stand any nonsense from someone who started using his cellphone as we were taxying. She shot out of her seat and said in a very firm manner "Sir, turn that phone off RIGHT THIS INSTANT". And he did - without daring to reply. Good girl - that's the way to deal with idiots!
Well, it would be nice to be able to get away with something like that, but sadly the huggy-fluffies would have a fit and gibber on about unsuitable body language, customer alienation or some similar crap, I guess.
Mind you, the red-haired Irish Number One on a buzz flight I was on a few years ago didn't stand any nonsense from someone who started using his cellphone as we were taxying. She shot out of her seat and said in a very firm manner "Sir, turn that phone off RIGHT THIS INSTANT". And he did - without daring to reply. Good girl - that's the way to deal with idiots!
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Agree entirely with you BEagle - there is never any need to raise your voice or take an aggressive stance. This is always provocative and rarely successful in achieving the desired outcome. Being firm but polite is usually a good way of going about things!
Had a situation about a year ago where a couple of Russian guys had their phones turned on before we even left the runway after landing into LHR. We as crew heard this, so I went out into the cabin to intercept these rule-flouting rascals. I found them both playing with their phones and asked/told them (pleasantly of course!) to turn them off. One replied 'I'm sending a text message'. The only response to give was 'I can see that Sir, thats why I'm asking you to turn the phone off'. He loudly announced that he would do so as soon as he finished his text message and that the sooner I disappeared, the sooner this would happen.
Naturally I wasnt going to let that happen, not as a matter of personal pride (although without doubt that would have kicked in later!) but pax need to know that reasonable requests from crew are to be followed. I told him that it had to be turned off now and he ignored me completely. I had no choice - I pointed out (whilst still smiling) that if he did not turn the offending mobile off I would have to request the police to meet the flight. When asked what he would be charged with, I told him he could be charged with failing to obey the orders of a crew member and having his mobile phone turned on onboard an aircraft, both of which are (and have been in previous cases) punishable by jail (although highly unlikely!)
He took great pleasure in telling me I was talking cr@p until a passenger from the other side told him I wasnt. He scoffed and asked her what made her think she had a clue. It was a fantastic moment when she informed him (without a smile) that she worked for the Crown Prosecution Service! It was one of those rare moments where you realise things couldn't be any better (sad I know!).
My (longwinded) point being - other pax can often help to get your point across. In the above scenario, whilst not grossly serious in the grand scheme of things, that other passengers comments got the phone switched off without having to take drastic action. This is the outcome all of us want, nobody wants to have somebody hauled off an aircraft in handcuffs (not normally anyway).
However, while enlisting the help of other passengers (whether requested or offered) can be useful, it can add fuel to the fire and you can end up trying to end the existing situation, trying to keep the 'helpful' pax out of it and try to stop the whole thing escalating into something worse.
In the Mark I version of this thread, I posted that all round awareness of pax behaviour from the second they step on board can help if things go wrong. This doesnt mean just looking for ABPs who could help in an emergency, be aware of the people who may be most likely to cause disruption and also be aware of those that could help if they do. Its not always as simple as that, but building that sort of awareness day by day will help us all to anticipate situations very early on.
Finally, whilst a minority of the travelling public can be morons, the majority are very pleasant and happy to be on board. If we can all just relax and have a (professional) laugh with those passengers, then maybe the onboard atmosphere will be far more pleasant and it also makes it easier to ask people to behave! Most importantly, it means we can all come home in the evening feeling chilled and happy which has got to be of prime importance!
Safe and enjoyable flying all...
FJ2k
Had a situation about a year ago where a couple of Russian guys had their phones turned on before we even left the runway after landing into LHR. We as crew heard this, so I went out into the cabin to intercept these rule-flouting rascals. I found them both playing with their phones and asked/told them (pleasantly of course!) to turn them off. One replied 'I'm sending a text message'. The only response to give was 'I can see that Sir, thats why I'm asking you to turn the phone off'. He loudly announced that he would do so as soon as he finished his text message and that the sooner I disappeared, the sooner this would happen.
Naturally I wasnt going to let that happen, not as a matter of personal pride (although without doubt that would have kicked in later!) but pax need to know that reasonable requests from crew are to be followed. I told him that it had to be turned off now and he ignored me completely. I had no choice - I pointed out (whilst still smiling) that if he did not turn the offending mobile off I would have to request the police to meet the flight. When asked what he would be charged with, I told him he could be charged with failing to obey the orders of a crew member and having his mobile phone turned on onboard an aircraft, both of which are (and have been in previous cases) punishable by jail (although highly unlikely!)
He took great pleasure in telling me I was talking cr@p until a passenger from the other side told him I wasnt. He scoffed and asked her what made her think she had a clue. It was a fantastic moment when she informed him (without a smile) that she worked for the Crown Prosecution Service! It was one of those rare moments where you realise things couldn't be any better (sad I know!).
My (longwinded) point being - other pax can often help to get your point across. In the above scenario, whilst not grossly serious in the grand scheme of things, that other passengers comments got the phone switched off without having to take drastic action. This is the outcome all of us want, nobody wants to have somebody hauled off an aircraft in handcuffs (not normally anyway).
However, while enlisting the help of other passengers (whether requested or offered) can be useful, it can add fuel to the fire and you can end up trying to end the existing situation, trying to keep the 'helpful' pax out of it and try to stop the whole thing escalating into something worse.
In the Mark I version of this thread, I posted that all round awareness of pax behaviour from the second they step on board can help if things go wrong. This doesnt mean just looking for ABPs who could help in an emergency, be aware of the people who may be most likely to cause disruption and also be aware of those that could help if they do. Its not always as simple as that, but building that sort of awareness day by day will help us all to anticipate situations very early on.
Finally, whilst a minority of the travelling public can be morons, the majority are very pleasant and happy to be on board. If we can all just relax and have a (professional) laugh with those passengers, then maybe the onboard atmosphere will be far more pleasant and it also makes it easier to ask people to behave! Most importantly, it means we can all come home in the evening feeling chilled and happy which has got to be of prime importance!
Safe and enjoyable flying all...
FJ2k
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"Athena5" referred to..
In recent years I am only aware of one such case.
One of the major points brought out in every CRM course I have ever attended is the importance of listening to the cabin crew. Indeed, there are grounds for suggesting that CC who know their opinions are respected are less likely to indulge in false alarms. It seems unlikely that a senior cabin attendant (whatever her age) would go straight for the big stick of threatening to offload any passenger- unless the passenger semed to be drunk, in which case she would have the legal responsibility to ofload him immediately.
I freely admit that, as crew, my instinct is to side with the cabin crew in these situations. Putting that prejudice aside, my instinct would be to support a young woman being harassed by a group of drunk men.....
myriad of CC that have faked bomb threats abroad aircraft?
One of the major points brought out in every CRM course I have ever attended is the importance of listening to the cabin crew. Indeed, there are grounds for suggesting that CC who know their opinions are respected are less likely to indulge in false alarms. It seems unlikely that a senior cabin attendant (whatever her age) would go straight for the big stick of threatening to offload any passenger- unless the passenger semed to be drunk, in which case she would have the legal responsibility to ofload him immediately.
I freely admit that, as crew, my instinct is to side with the cabin crew in these situations. Putting that prejudice aside, my instinct would be to support a young woman being harassed by a group of drunk men.....
I think the cabin crew acted entirely appropriately (in the incident in the first post). The only mistake was not unloading all of the Golfers at the start of the flight.
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other pax can often help to get your point across
Had a case a few years back on EK from BKK to DXB. The flight had come from somewhere else when I boarded in BKK (can't remember where). Anyway, this guy in the row in front of me had obviously made himself comfortable during the transit stop. When the doors were closed this sweet little FA came up and asked him ever so nicely if he would put his seat upright for departure. The passenger growled and snapped at her like nobody's business. She tried again but he was being obstinate..and she left to get re-inforcements. However, as the plane was taxying, I imagined the cockpit crew were rather busy.
As the guy was blocking my access to the aisle, I just asked him if he really was a prat or just acting like one. I then proceeded to tell him that I had no intention of allowing him to block my access to the aisle in case of a problem and if he didn't put his seat upright NOW, he would have to bear the consequences. Given that I was twice his size it wasn't much of a contest....
It's amazing what a little gentle persuasion can do...no need to raise one's voice at all
Had a case a few years back on EK from BKK to DXB. The flight had come from somewhere else when I boarded in BKK (can't remember where). Anyway, this guy in the row in front of me had obviously made himself comfortable during the transit stop. When the doors were closed this sweet little FA came up and asked him ever so nicely if he would put his seat upright for departure. The passenger growled and snapped at her like nobody's business. She tried again but he was being obstinate..and she left to get re-inforcements. However, as the plane was taxying, I imagined the cockpit crew were rather busy.
As the guy was blocking my access to the aisle, I just asked him if he really was a prat or just acting like one. I then proceeded to tell him that I had no intention of allowing him to block my access to the aisle in case of a problem and if he didn't put his seat upright NOW, he would have to bear the consequences. Given that I was twice his size it wasn't much of a contest....
It's amazing what a little gentle persuasion can do...no need to raise one's voice at all
