Increased security on UK-Ireland routes?
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Increased security on UK-Ireland routes?
Seems like the UK are intent on checking that Ireland are holding up their end on the common travel area:
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=11159
IRISH people are being randomly stopped at Dublin Airport and are being subjected to questioning by immigration officers from the UK, it has been learned.
(snip)
(snip) UK immigration officers have been questioning Irish citizens arriving at Dublin Airport as part of what the Department of Justice here calls a "joint operation" to protect the "common travel area" from illegal immigrants.
The joint British-Irish operations at the airport have been sanctioned by the Minister for Justice
(snip)
An Irish businessmen objected to being questioned by British officials at Dublin Airport 10 days ago, after he was referred to them by gardai.
The businessman was referred to the UK's immigration officials when he failed to produce visual identification while going through passport control after arriving on a Ryanair flight from London.
The British official admitted to the businessman that he was from the British immigration service, and said he was on a "training course" at the airport.
But the Department of Justice has told the the Sunday Independent that the series of joint British-Irish operations have been established "to preserve the common travel area as it currently exists for the benefit of Irish and British citizens."
A common travel area is in existence between Ireland and the UK (including the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man).
There is no formal agreement between Ireland and UK regarding the common travel area, and it is not provided for in legislation.
(snip)
Sources in the Department of Justice deny that the joint operation has been established because of a lack of confidence by the UK authorities on Irish border controls.
Department sources say the joint approach is "to combat trafficking and to monitor the extent to which the various travel routes are being abused".
The common travel area did not have immigration controls prior to 1997, but since then spot-checks have been introduced.
The Irish businessman, who holds both Irish and US passports, was stopped at passport control by a garda member. As his passports were in a briefcase - which he did not want to open - he produced a US driving licence when asked for identification. This did not have his picture.
He told the Garda that he did not require visual identification to travel between Ireland and Britain. At that stage he was handed over to two UK immigration officers.
The man was subsequently let through passport control after he disputed their authority to question him on Irish soil and asked under what section of Irish law they were operating.
The Department of Justice has defended its role in bringing UK immigration officers to Ireland, saying it is part of its mission to "protect" the common travel area which allows Irish and British citizens to travel freely between the two jurisdictions.
"The common travel area is being abused on a widespread basis by persons who are neither Irish or British citizens, to travel from one jurisdiction to the other without proper documentation," said the Department of Justice in reply to questions.
(snip)
However, Labour's Justice spokesman Joe Costello described the practice as "highly irregular" and said he would have concerns about having foreign officials operating in Irish ports and airports.
(snip)
He added: "It is our jurisdiction. It should not be the norm that any other nationals from another jurisdiction should be operating as if they were Irish officials."
The Fine Gael Justice spokesman, TD Jim O'Keeffe, said that he did not think that it was appropriate for officials from outside the country to be dealing directly with Irish citizens.
"My reaction to the story is that I would understand how that businessman felt and I would feel that there should not be interrogation by British officialdom on Irish soil."
The Department of Justice did not specify under what section of Irish immigration laws British immigration inspectors could operate in Ireland, or whether visual ID was now necessary to travel between Ireland and Britain.
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Seems to me if the punter mentioned had been upfront with the Guards he wouldn't have had to talk to the UK people - imagine telling US TSA "I don't want to open my briefcase" ????
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=11159
IRISH people are being randomly stopped at Dublin Airport and are being subjected to questioning by immigration officers from the UK, it has been learned.
(snip)
(snip) UK immigration officers have been questioning Irish citizens arriving at Dublin Airport as part of what the Department of Justice here calls a "joint operation" to protect the "common travel area" from illegal immigrants.
The joint British-Irish operations at the airport have been sanctioned by the Minister for Justice
(snip)
An Irish businessmen objected to being questioned by British officials at Dublin Airport 10 days ago, after he was referred to them by gardai.
The businessman was referred to the UK's immigration officials when he failed to produce visual identification while going through passport control after arriving on a Ryanair flight from London.
The British official admitted to the businessman that he was from the British immigration service, and said he was on a "training course" at the airport.
But the Department of Justice has told the the Sunday Independent that the series of joint British-Irish operations have been established "to preserve the common travel area as it currently exists for the benefit of Irish and British citizens."
A common travel area is in existence between Ireland and the UK (including the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man).
There is no formal agreement between Ireland and UK regarding the common travel area, and it is not provided for in legislation.
(snip)
Sources in the Department of Justice deny that the joint operation has been established because of a lack of confidence by the UK authorities on Irish border controls.
Department sources say the joint approach is "to combat trafficking and to monitor the extent to which the various travel routes are being abused".
The common travel area did not have immigration controls prior to 1997, but since then spot-checks have been introduced.
The Irish businessman, who holds both Irish and US passports, was stopped at passport control by a garda member. As his passports were in a briefcase - which he did not want to open - he produced a US driving licence when asked for identification. This did not have his picture.
He told the Garda that he did not require visual identification to travel between Ireland and Britain. At that stage he was handed over to two UK immigration officers.
The man was subsequently let through passport control after he disputed their authority to question him on Irish soil and asked under what section of Irish law they were operating.
The Department of Justice has defended its role in bringing UK immigration officers to Ireland, saying it is part of its mission to "protect" the common travel area which allows Irish and British citizens to travel freely between the two jurisdictions.
"The common travel area is being abused on a widespread basis by persons who are neither Irish or British citizens, to travel from one jurisdiction to the other without proper documentation," said the Department of Justice in reply to questions.
(snip)
However, Labour's Justice spokesman Joe Costello described the practice as "highly irregular" and said he would have concerns about having foreign officials operating in Irish ports and airports.
(snip)
He added: "It is our jurisdiction. It should not be the norm that any other nationals from another jurisdiction should be operating as if they were Irish officials."
The Fine Gael Justice spokesman, TD Jim O'Keeffe, said that he did not think that it was appropriate for officials from outside the country to be dealing directly with Irish citizens.
"My reaction to the story is that I would understand how that businessman felt and I would feel that there should not be interrogation by British officialdom on Irish soil."
The Department of Justice did not specify under what section of Irish immigration laws British immigration inspectors could operate in Ireland, or whether visual ID was now necessary to travel between Ireland and Britain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article edited to preserve bandwidth per mod statement
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Seems to me if the punter mentioned had been upfront with the Guards he wouldn't have had to talk to the UK people - imagine telling US TSA "I don't want to open my briefcase" ????
Last edited by MarkD; 18th Jul 2004 at 20:42.
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Labour's Justice spokesman Joe Costello described the practice as "highly irregular" and said he would have concerns about having foreign officials operating in Irish ports and airports.
Fine Gael Justice spokesman, TD Jim O'Keeffe, said that he did not think that it was appropriate for officials from outside the country to be dealing directly with Irish citizens
so how does that stack up with the US dealing with immigration at both SNN and DUB ...or is it because they are from the UK
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In fact the SNN and DUB US imm thing is a pre-immigration clearance and is only for USA bound flights; this saves an amazing amount of hassle at the other end
unless you're going to the US you won't see them; all in all a good thing.
However, since if you're coming in on Ryanair you arrive at Terminal B .. no matter where you're coming from you'll end up mixed up with everyone else heading for Immigration ...
He must have done something to annoy the Irish immig lads on the desks...
unless you're going to the US you won't see them; all in all a good thing.
However, since if you're coming in on Ryanair you arrive at Terminal B .. no matter where you're coming from you'll end up mixed up with everyone else heading for Immigration ...
He must have done something to annoy the Irish immig lads on the desks...
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Distant Rumble;
Quote:
"However, since if you're coming in on Ryanair you arrive at Terminal B .. no matter where you're coming from you'll end up mixed up with everyone else heading for Immigration ... "
When you arrive at Dublin airport on a Ryanair flight, you in fact arrive at Pier A, and not Pier B as you mentioned (I'll assume you meant pier and not terminal, as most are very aware of the fact Dublin has ony one terminal, for now, but let's not get started on that!)
Immigration control in Pier A is the same as Pier B as many of the flights arriving here are not only from the UK but from mainland europe etc, if less in quantity than those.
I must agree with you however on the issue of US Immigration in DUB. This is an entierly different ball game than the above mentioned incident. This is a god-send to pax travelling to the US as all 'paperwork' has been pre-checked, and hence upon entry into the US after a long flight it is not necessary to stand in an endless line waiting to be called!
P206
Quote:
"However, since if you're coming in on Ryanair you arrive at Terminal B .. no matter where you're coming from you'll end up mixed up with everyone else heading for Immigration ... "
When you arrive at Dublin airport on a Ryanair flight, you in fact arrive at Pier A, and not Pier B as you mentioned (I'll assume you meant pier and not terminal, as most are very aware of the fact Dublin has ony one terminal, for now, but let's not get started on that!)
Immigration control in Pier A is the same as Pier B as many of the flights arriving here are not only from the UK but from mainland europe etc, if less in quantity than those.
I must agree with you however on the issue of US Immigration in DUB. This is an entierly different ball game than the above mentioned incident. This is a god-send to pax travelling to the US as all 'paperwork' has been pre-checked, and hence upon entry into the US after a long flight it is not necessary to stand in an endless line waiting to be called!
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Although I have not traveled with RYR in a long time I was under the impression that they will not allow one to board without picture ID. So whats this guy trying to hide if he refuses to show it to the Gardai (Irish Police ).
Did the Gardai (or Irish Immigration) not bring him in for questioning after he spat the dummy with the other guys ??
Perhaps his passport got lost among all the €500 notes he had packed in his briefcase
...... !!!!
Spoke to a bloke who did not avail of US imm. service @ SNN en-route to Chicago, on arrival in US imm promptly put him on the next plane home... overstayed his previous visa welcome, mustve assumed they would slap his wrist and let him through -seeing as he'd travelled that far, but, alas they are not so sympathetic. Because of his attempted deception his card is marked and he cannot even get a visa now.... his American dream remains shattered.. !!!
Did the Gardai (or Irish Immigration) not bring him in for questioning after he spat the dummy with the other guys ??
Perhaps his passport got lost among all the €500 notes he had packed in his briefcase
...... !!!!Spoke to a bloke who did not avail of US imm. service @ SNN en-route to Chicago, on arrival in US imm promptly put him on the next plane home... overstayed his previous visa welcome, mustve assumed they would slap his wrist and let him through -seeing as he'd travelled that far, but, alas they are not so sympathetic. Because of his attempted deception his card is marked and he cannot even get a visa now.... his American dream remains shattered.. !!!
Too mean to buy a long personal title
The common travel area is pretty one-sided anyway.
If you're a non-EU national travelling from the UK to Ireland, you have to produce passport, fill in landing card and get seen by Irish immigration and stamped.
However, on the way back in to the UK, you never see an immigration officer at all as you are routed around UK immigration control directly into baggage reclaim.
IIRC, all pre-clearance (whether US at Irish airports, US at Canadian airports, US at UK airports as has been done in the past, UK at Czech airports, or others) is all done by express inter-government agreement so no issue arises there.
If you're a non-EU national travelling from the UK to Ireland, you have to produce passport, fill in landing card and get seen by Irish immigration and stamped.
However, on the way back in to the UK, you never see an immigration officer at all as you are routed around UK immigration control directly into baggage reclaim.
IIRC, all pre-clearance (whether US at Irish airports, US at Canadian airports, US at UK airports as has been done in the past, UK at Czech airports, or others) is all done by express inter-government agreement so no issue arises there.
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Basil,
Not helpful - It's an issue of sensitivity.
I would have reacted just as this guy did. Arriving back to one's own sovereign soil, one doesn't expect to be questioned by officials from another state. I imagine you might see red if a French official attempted to interview you after arriving back to the UK from somewhere.
As I understand it, the guy was let through when he questioned under what section of Irish law they were operating (which appeared to be a bit adhoc).
Fine, just flag him up for an interview on arrival.
I would have reacted just as this guy did. Arriving back to one's own sovereign soil, one doesn't expect to be questioned by officials from another state. I imagine you might see red if a French official attempted to interview you after arriving back to the UK from somewhere.
As I understand it, the guy was let through when he questioned under what section of Irish law they were operating (which appeared to be a bit adhoc).
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There is no formal agreement between Ireland and UK regarding the common travel area, and it is not provided for in legislation.
(snip)
The man was subsequently let through passport control after he disputed their authority to question him on Irish soil and asked under what section of Irish law they were operating.
(snip)
The man was subsequently let through passport control after he disputed their authority to question him on Irish soil and asked under what section of Irish law they were operating.
So whats this guy trying to hide if he refuses to show [picture ID] to the Gardai (Irish Police ).
The fact that this 'arrangement' had not apparently been made publicly known beforehand is bound to contribute to the sense of indignation that inevitably surfaced in the heat of the moment. Compare this to the high compliance with the widely advertised and clearly explained measures taken to prevent the spread of foot & mouth disease a couple of years back.
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Yes, I have to say I would have reacted the same as the gentlemen in question. They could at least have been honest with him, and he was completely correct in challenging their authority to question him, because they had none.
I have also noted the increased checking of documents, and indeed I had to show my passport at SNN on arrival back from LHR last week. I also noticed Foreign nationals being questioned in an appalingly rude way by the officials at SNN.
Why are Irish officials not capable of doing the Job? Surely we can protect the common travel area considering it is our obligation to do so anyway? Having said that, if it was deemed necessary to have UK officials at IE airports (or indeed Irish ones at British airports) then put a proper procedure in place, and I would have no problem with it.
Better still, scrap this nonsense and go into Schengen!
I have also noted the increased checking of documents, and indeed I had to show my passport at SNN on arrival back from LHR last week. I also noticed Foreign nationals being questioned in an appalingly rude way by the officials at SNN.
Why are Irish officials not capable of doing the Job? Surely we can protect the common travel area considering it is our obligation to do so anyway? Having said that, if it was deemed necessary to have UK officials at IE airports (or indeed Irish ones at British airports) then put a proper procedure in place, and I would have no problem with it.
Better still, scrap this nonsense and go into Schengen!
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Common Travel Area (CTA)
A few cents from me folks, for what its worth on this topic....
Firstly, going through US Pre-Clearence immigration at DUB, or SNN to me is a waste of time. On my travels to the US from Ireland, arriving in either JFK, ORD, BOs or LAX, the lines at Immigration in all these cities almost always are very short and never appear, to me anyway, as being too long. I always have to wait ages at the customs lines, where the white piece of paper is inspected by no less than 3 officers at different times before exiting the customs hall at LAX in particular.
All US Driving licenses have photographs on them
In relation to the CTA....The CTA between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, means that Citizens of either country can travel between both countires without the need to present a passport to Immigration Officials in either country. This provision applies ONLY to citizens of both countries, all others are required to carry either a passport or Government issued Identity Card.
Remember, Immigration Officers (Gardai / Irish Police) cannot tell by looking at Pax, what their Nationality is. If this "Business Man" produced an American drivers licence as proof of ID, then in my opinion, it was reasonable to assume that he was a US citizen and therefore would be required to produce a passsport on entering Ireland.
As for the CTA being one sided...this appears to be true, but the fact of the matter is, that Irish Immigration are allowing Citizens of the UK and Ireland to take full advantage of the CTA while trying their best to make sure that all others are checked, H.M's Immigration are happy enough not checking any pax arriving from Ireland
Finally, it is my opinion, that any UK official questioning ANY pax arriving in Ireland is very serious, and I doubt very much if they have any powers at all to engage in this activity. If I arrived in Dublin and an official from any other jurisdiction started asking me questions, I would refuse to answer any at all unless they were put to me by a representative from Irish Immigration
Firstly, going through US Pre-Clearence immigration at DUB, or SNN to me is a waste of time. On my travels to the US from Ireland, arriving in either JFK, ORD, BOs or LAX, the lines at Immigration in all these cities almost always are very short and never appear, to me anyway, as being too long. I always have to wait ages at the customs lines, where the white piece of paper is inspected by no less than 3 officers at different times before exiting the customs hall at LAX in particular.
All US Driving licenses have photographs on them
In relation to the CTA....The CTA between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, means that Citizens of either country can travel between both countires without the need to present a passport to Immigration Officials in either country. This provision applies ONLY to citizens of both countries, all others are required to carry either a passport or Government issued Identity Card.
Remember, Immigration Officers (Gardai / Irish Police) cannot tell by looking at Pax, what their Nationality is. If this "Business Man" produced an American drivers licence as proof of ID, then in my opinion, it was reasonable to assume that he was a US citizen and therefore would be required to produce a passsport on entering Ireland.
As for the CTA being one sided...this appears to be true, but the fact of the matter is, that Irish Immigration are allowing Citizens of the UK and Ireland to take full advantage of the CTA while trying their best to make sure that all others are checked, H.M's Immigration are happy enough not checking any pax arriving from Ireland
Finally, it is my opinion, that any UK official questioning ANY pax arriving in Ireland is very serious, and I doubt very much if they have any powers at all to engage in this activity. If I arrived in Dublin and an official from any other jurisdiction started asking me questions, I would refuse to answer any at all unless they were put to me by a representative from Irish Immigration
I believe that this practice has been abandoned, once it hit the press the Ministry of Justice washed their hands of it as it had no grounds in Irish legislation - probably a ham fisted attempt at co-operation dreamed up by some grey haired senior "Gard" from a different era...
I personally have had no problems with immigration in DUB but having spent pub time with one official (married to a friend) I have no trouble believing the hassle and abuse stories regarding their treatment of people who are obviously non national. The individual I encountered was a blatant racist. I read an excellent book on the life of an immigration official based I think at LHR, facinating insight into the other side of the story - called "something" Shoes.
As for the guy who was the subject of this post - more luck to him. He was probably looking for a confrontation, given the document he chose to produce and his obviously informed response, but the powers that be need to be kept in check from time to time, that's what makes a democracy worth living in.
I personally have had no problems with immigration in DUB but having spent pub time with one official (married to a friend) I have no trouble believing the hassle and abuse stories regarding their treatment of people who are obviously non national. The individual I encountered was a blatant racist. I read an excellent book on the life of an immigration official based I think at LHR, facinating insight into the other side of the story - called "something" Shoes.
As for the guy who was the subject of this post - more luck to him. He was probably looking for a confrontation, given the document he chose to produce and his obviously informed response, but the powers that be need to be kept in check from time to time, that's what makes a democracy worth living in.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Flame: In relation to the CTA....The CTA between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom, means that Citizens of either country can travel between both countires without the need to present a passport to Immigration Officials in either country. This provision applies ONLY to citizens of both countries, all others are required to carry either a passport or Government issued Identity Card.
...
As for the CTA being one sided...this appears to be true, but the fact of the matter is, that Irish Immigration are allowing Citizens of the UK and Ireland to take full advantage of the CTA while trying their best to make sure that all others are checked, H.M's Immigration are happy enough not checking any pax arriving from Ireland
...
As for the CTA being one sided...this appears to be true, but the fact of the matter is, that Irish Immigration are allowing Citizens of the UK and Ireland to take full advantage of the CTA while trying their best to make sure that all others are checked, H.M's Immigration are happy enough not checking any pax arriving from Ireland
Arrival in and departure from the United Kingdom on a local journey from or to any of the Islands (that is to say, the Channel Islands and Isle of Man) or the Republic of Ireland shall not be subject to control under this Act, nor shall a person require leave to enter the United Kingdom on so arriving, except in so far as any of those places is for any purpose excluded from this subsection under the powers conferred by this Act; and in this Act the United Kingdom and those places, or such of them as are not so excluded, are collectively referred to as “the common travel area”.
This is why there is no UK inbound immigration check for passengers arriving from Ireland - this Act says that there will not be one. It therefore came as a surprise to me to find that "other" citizens were required by Irish law to hold a passport and submit to immigration checks on arriving in Ireland from the UK.
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Why, for example, can I travel from the UK via NI into the ROI encountering no checks, yet if I travel by air I'm subject to immigration controls?
If you drive over the border into RoI then I don't think there's any doubt that you came from the UK/NI. It does seem that the spirit of the CTA has been lost in DUB.
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Globaliser;
Am I correct in saying that your quote refers to a definition of the "Area" that the CTA refers to, but no mention of nationalities..??
My understanding is that in Irish Law it refers only to citizens of the United Kingdon and the Republic of Ireland, E.G... a person from a country requiring a Visa to enter the RoI still needs the Visa whether they are coming direct into the RoI or via the U.K
If your statement is correct, then a person not requiring a Visa to enter the RoI, but needing one for the U.K could come first to the RoI , then travel to the UK, thus getting around the regulations in the U.K
Mini;
There are periodic checks at the border between the RoI and Nth Ireland on traffic and also on the train service between Dublin and Belfast
As for PAX at DUB being mixed up coming from the U.K and mainlland Europe, this is very very true. I have watched on numerous occasions Imigration Officials at DUB almost tearing their hair out trying to deal with PAX arriving from the CTA and Europe at teh same time, I have seen PAX from the US arrive at Pier B and Pier B being mixed with PAX from the CTA and at Pier A the situation is a complete disaster.
Aer Rianta (airport operator) supply the facilities for Immigration officers to do their job. Aer Rianta ought to be ashamed of themselves, I reckon they would never allow their own employees to work in such conditions
Am I correct in saying that your quote refers to a definition of the "Area" that the CTA refers to, but no mention of nationalities..??
My understanding is that in Irish Law it refers only to citizens of the United Kingdon and the Republic of Ireland, E.G... a person from a country requiring a Visa to enter the RoI still needs the Visa whether they are coming direct into the RoI or via the U.K
If your statement is correct, then a person not requiring a Visa to enter the RoI, but needing one for the U.K could come first to the RoI , then travel to the UK, thus getting around the regulations in the U.K
Mini;
There are periodic checks at the border between the RoI and Nth Ireland on traffic and also on the train service between Dublin and Belfast
As for PAX at DUB being mixed up coming from the U.K and mainlland Europe, this is very very true. I have watched on numerous occasions Imigration Officials at DUB almost tearing their hair out trying to deal with PAX arriving from the CTA and Europe at teh same time, I have seen PAX from the US arrive at Pier B and Pier B being mixed with PAX from the CTA and at Pier A the situation is a complete disaster.
Aer Rianta (airport operator) supply the facilities for Immigration officers to do their job. Aer Rianta ought to be ashamed of themselves, I reckon they would never allow their own employees to work in such conditions
Last edited by Flame; 25th Jul 2004 at 22:22.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
Flame: Globaliser;
Am I correct in saying that your quote refers to a definition of the "Area" that the CTA refers to, but no mention of nationalities..??
My understanding is that in Irish Law it refers only to citizens of the United Kingdon and the Republic of Ireland, E.G... a person from a country requiring a Visa to enter the RoI still needs the Visa whether they are coming direct into the RoI or via the U.K
If your statement is correct, then a person not requiring a Visa to enter the RoI, but needing one for the U.K could come first to the RoI , then travel to the UK, thus getting around the regulations in the U.K
Am I correct in saying that your quote refers to a definition of the "Area" that the CTA refers to, but no mention of nationalities..??
My understanding is that in Irish Law it refers only to citizens of the United Kingdon and the Republic of Ireland, E.G... a person from a country requiring a Visa to enter the RoI still needs the Visa whether they are coming direct into the RoI or via the U.K
If your statement is correct, then a person not requiring a Visa to enter the RoI, but needing one for the U.K could come first to the RoI , then travel to the UK, thus getting around the regulations in the U.K
However, there are a number of qualifications to the rule for passengers arriving from the Republic. For example, if you are of a nationality that must hold a visa for every trip to the UK, then you have to obtain leave to enter. There is no legal way around the rules, but the obligation is nevertheless on the passenger to see an immigration officer; there is no routine check.
This rule does not apply if you are of a nationality that only needs a visa for certain types of trip but not others - eg Americans need no visas for visits to the UK but must have a visa if they are moving to the UK with a British spouse. There are automatic provisions about the time limits on your stay - but again, if that American wants to work, he will have to see an immigration officer to have the automatic time limit and conditions varied.
The last time that my GF was subjected to the non-EU queue at ORK, inbound from LHR, I asked the immigration officer what the Irish law is. He said that only Irish and UK citizens are entitled to travel between the UK and Ireland without passports. I have since done some research and discovered that this was introduced into Irish immigration practice by the Aliens (Amendment) No 3 Order 1997. So this is the Irish legislation backing what is now a rather lopsided CTA.
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If indeed the rule is that only British and Irish Citizens may enter Ireland without passing through immigration then someone should tell the person who designed the signage at DUB. Last time I was there I arrived with my girlfriend who is a British National, but not a British Citizen. I checked carefully that the sign stated that British Nationals could bypass Irish immigration, and we both did so (I am a British Citizen, and therefore also a British National).