On acquiring an aircraft for my own PPL training and later use
 

Probably worth just talking to the school about it; if you buy the Sling you'll have to talk to them anyway in order to set up the lease. If it was actually capable of earning more profit than the Cessna/Piper options and paying back the initial outlay, they probably would have bought one already - so why haven't they?

The obvious limitations of the Sling 2 are that it's only a 2-seater (can't take a couple of mates on a flight) and it's pretty light (the heavier Warriors and 172s are likely to give you better experience for moving on to larger commercial aircraft, if that's where you want to go). Rather than comparing it to a Warrior or 172, a Cessna 152 might be a more appropriate alternative.


Apart from that, I've been told very firmly "do not do training in your own plane, and don't let anyone else do training in your own plane". Too much risk of breaking something, and insurance premiums reflect that.

Research the costs of owning a aircraft, talk to some current owners find out the yearly expenses. It’s the unscheduled and unexpected maintenance that usually sends a lot of flying schools and sole owners to the wall. I know of one flying school that had to sell its Cessna because they didn’t plan for a expensive breakdown and couldn’t afford it.

Okihara,
Go start your training somewhere (not at a capital city secondary airport) and gets some experience, some feel, from the inside. With a bit of time under your belt your views on suitable aircraft will also probably change.
I also suggest you look at staring with RAOz rather than the GA stream, it is easy enough to convert later.
Keep it simple.
Tootle pip!!

There are PLENTY of people out there now doing exactly what you are proposing, it's how many flying schools survive as they can't afford their own aircraft.

I would broaden your choice of aircraft though. I'm personally not excited about the Sling after I saw that 4 seater literally crushed in a landing accident (there's a thread on it here), they were lucky to survive
and the pilot was badly injured. As for the Black Shape Prime, I haven't heard of any being sold yet and $260k+ for a 130? knot tandem aircraft? Certainly tandem aren't brilliant for an-initio training so your aircraft might not get much use except for licenced pilots and at the huge capital outlay that it is, the hire rate will suffer accordingly.

Flying schools need workhorses, not modern showpieces. The 40 year old Cessnas are moderately bullet-proof and the costs are very well known. They burn more fuel but you can buy a decent 182 for well under $100k these days.

Workhorses in raaus are Jabiru's, Foxbats and other entry-level aircraft. The high-end imports like some Tecnams and the exotic European composites are great for private owners to hang onto and use privately.

One euro composite worth looking at is the Pipistrel Alpha trainer.... much the same airframe as the electric model that's been causing a lot of hype about lately. They have built this aircraft to be an affordable trainer and there are examples already of them operating successfully in Australian flying schools.

Perhaps also look at Soar, the flying school with some 30-40 aircraft in Moorabbin and Bankstown - they operate pretty much exclusively Foxbats and Bristells.

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time for your replies.

@StickWithTheTruth: It was also my assumption that schools would be selling their old aircraft at residual value and renew their fleet if they could afford it. I had a look at the Pipistrel Alpha Electro which claims to run minimal maintenance costs and is still a good aircraft to learn on. I understand the workhorses argument and that's precisely where I see the opportunity. Also, would you happen to have any references or hard facts when you say thatAs I basically moved to Australia for a couple of years, I have only been made aware of the parallel RA-Aus track (vs. GA) pretty late in the game. Anyaway heading back to Europe eventually, a PPL will obviously be more transferable. It is my understanding that limitations to the RA-Aus certificate are, among others, weights of up to 600 kg which does include Foxbats, Bristell, Blackshape prime and others. But what's with the registration of those aircraft? Are RA-Aus planes also VH- or are they on a separate registration schema? Can you use those aircraft interchangeably, eg. can I use a Blackshape prime for GA or is it limited to RA-Aus?

There is an opportunity cost for the school if their staff are flying a non school asset while theirs are sitting on the ground. Pretty slim margins on cross-hire, only suitable if the school has no assets of its own which is pretty sad and risky.

Those PA28s and C172s are still around for a reason, they have stood the test of time and the rigours of flying training while many plastic fantastics have come and gone and often taken the flying school down with them.

I’d suggest you consider the following:
- your motivation for buying your own aircraft. If it’s to save money, you simply won’t.
- If it’s to gain as much experience on the aircraft before setting off on your own, that’s a good reason.
- I don’t agree with the whole go and break someone else’s machine story. The only rider I’d put on that being - if it’s brand new don’t do any training in it for the first 10-20 engine hours. Get the rings bedded in before you start using low power settings or else you’ll own an oil burner.
- if you think you’re going to make money leasing it to a Flying school, you’d want to be very careful. Aircraft get trashed, owners don’t get paid and these deals often finish badly.
- do you really want to fly just the one type for several years to come? Maybe get your licence, hire a few different types then decide.
- if you just want to own an aeroplane and can afford it, do it. Don’t try to justify it, just go and buy one.

Okihara,
Have a look at the Recreational Aviation Australia web site, but in simplified terms, RAOz is a self administrative, member owned body that is a facsimile of CASA for the relevant aircraft ---- of which there is a very good range. I would thing there is more active private flying in the sector than CASA private GA, and certainly more active pilots than active PPLs.

Indeed, this is where all the action is, as far as private flying is concerned.

This is the affordable and active end of private flying. A very similar system operates in the UK. In particular, medical standards for RAOz are are super simple, if you qualify to drive a private motor car, you qualify for the RAOz medical standard.

Having said that, as you intend to go to a PPL, you should do a CASA medical, and start of with an initial for a first class standard, only downgrade to a Class 2 if you are forced so to do.

There are RAOz flying schools, and many schools that offer both CASA and RAOz streams, and at a later date, converting an RAOz pilot certificate (note: not a "License") into a CASA PPL (an ICAO license) is simple and straightforward.

Rounsounds' advice should be heeded, to the uninitiated buying an aircraft can be a very seductive thought, don't get suckered in at this early stage.

Remember, to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large fortune.

Tootle pip!!

Leasing your new toy to a flying school usually ends in tears. Your aircraft is going to be abused by ham fisted ignoramus students like me.

To put that another way, it's not going to have that new car smell when you have finished your initial training.

Get your licence first

You will know exactly why I say this when you have your licence.

Is you bending a firewall, abusing or trashing Sunfish? LOL

@roundsounds:
Well there are educated acquisitions and then there are impulsive buys. With an aircraft and the joy of the learning to fly, it's hard to keep a straight mind but, still, that's no reason to waste or lose money irresponsibly either. The whole thing has to make somewhat financial sense, and I don't necessarily mean turning a profit but rather minimizing the cost of the whole experience of flying. As with many other things in life, renting is more convenient but also more expensive. In GA, renting is often the only option as the costs levels are so absurdly high that they rule out the overwhelming majority of users.

I get your point, and I don't mean to provoke but won't most people drive the same car for 2-3 years before they change? And usually, they'll drive their car everyday. An aircraft is something that you're going to fly at most once or twice a week if time allows, and perhaps twice a month otherwise. At that frequency, I don't know that I'd want to fly a different type of plane every single time to be honest. Then again, I'm passing my RPL exam shortly and will then begin my cross country training, my views may be subject to change.

@LeadSled: Can you also go the other way, ie. get your PPL (or RPL) and then fly RAOz, with a relevant conversion? If it's cheaper to fly the same aircraft, and if I intend to do just a small recreational flight, RAOz seems amply sufficient.

Also:
I obtained a medical class 2 for now because my instructors advised me to, arguing that one can upgrade to a medical class 1 at a later stage if necessary. What's the reasoning behind your downgrading if forced to advice?

What's your mission after you get your PPL? Every time these threads come up (I created one myself a while ago) you get the inevitable naysayers claiming that you should never buy an aircraft, that you should only rent, and so on...

Where this argument becomes problematic is when you look at the huge costs involved in renting an aircraft for touring. Most clubs or schools have a minimum daily charge if you take the aircraft away from base, and there is the added pressure of having to have the aircraft back so that other bookings that they might have in the future aren't jeopardised.

I've modelled out the cost of ownership extensively for a few four seater types sub-100k, namely PA28, C172, C182, and if you buy a dud aircraft or get unlucky with big problems then of course it is going to cost you a small fortune.

However, my modelling indicates that if you do your due diligence with a suitably qualified engineer and don't overpay for the aircraft then it can be quite cost effective. Even more so if you buy in a partnership of 2-3 people and you are keeping the aircraft at an airfield that is not a capital city secondary airport.

OP, I can see where you are coming from with regard to aircraft choice but there is a reason that the trusty C172 and PA28 designs have endured the test of time. They are also more appealing to students who want to progress on to CPL. I notice you haven't factored in depreciation if you were to buy a newer design LSA...it seems to me that depreciation is not a huge deal on older C172s/PA28s, and in fact good ones are starting to increase in value.

If the age of the aircraft bothers you why don't you look for a mid-90s or later model?

Okihara,
Re. CASA license to RAOz, the answer is yes, simple and straightforward.
Re. medical, the Class 1 is always the place to start, because you never know, you may in the future want to progress to higher licenses, even if you have no intention of an aviation pilot career.

I don't recall if you mentioned where you are, geographically, but go have a look at the nearest RAOz schools, sadly these days for GA, they are often the more active, vibrant and generally just fun places to be, like aero clubs of the "good old days".

A final piece of advice, as you are starting to sound like you have already subconsciously made up your mind to buy an aircraft, re-read all the advice as to why you shouldn't, and if you do, keep the aircraft for your own use, forget the blandishments about how you can defray/minimise costs by hiring to a club or school.

Some of the posters on this thread have been around a long time, "been there, done that", and have seen a lot of tears (and $$$$) shed ( some their own) over the years.

We speak from experience. And CASA is only making it harder and harder, everything to do with RAOz is closer to common sense, far less bureaucratic at all levels and as a consequence, more simple and as a result, cheaper. As well as generally a lot more fun.

The difference in setting up and running an RAOz flying school, alone, compared to CASA Part 141 or Part 142 is probably a factor of 10, maybe more.

Tootle pip!!

You're being polite Leadie, it sounded quite arrogant to me. Asking for advice then preaching to us with a series of sweeping motherhood statements!

!!

All the rage with the young and wealthy seems to be with owning a C152 or Piper Cub with big tyres and some modern personal e-kit. Dunno much about this big tyre phenomenon when there are so many smooth ALAs about, guess it's just cool to have them.

The wisest words so far have been spoken by Unky Bob.

Flight training insurance: +$4-6K per annum (excluding ab-initio). Be prepared for the inevitable prop strike+engine bulk strip (covered by insurance, but not at replacement cost, at a depreciated level so it'll still cost you lots), loss of hire time (hey nobody compensates you for that, bad luck on your "investment") and countless hours of frigging around with LAMEs, engine rebuilders (if any are left on your airstrip) etc. Also be prepared for early adopter costs relating (e.g. ADSB, could be done with $500 of hardware, but it'll cost you thousands because of early adopter costs) etc. Be prepared to pay several hundred dollars just to contemplate installing a clock or an outside air temperature gauge because you need an engineering order to draw up diagrams and other silly stuff.

Above all, remember, the three F rule.
If it floats, flies or f__ks, rent it by the hour.

Second rule, if you want to become a millionaire through aviation, start with a few billion dollars, then start an airline.

That's me ya talkin about CT. It is pretty cool to have them, I take mine a long way from smooth ALA's though.

The cheapest flying you will ever do is when renting someone else's problem.

From the other side, I used to have a few privately owned aircraft on line. I'll be tactful here and say the the biggest problem was the "unrealistic expectations" of the owners, no matter what was written into the contract. Very few of them understood the realities of owning an aircraft and some even tried to undercut me by doing sly deals on the side with my hirers. So apart from the opportunity cost mentioned above, don't expect every flying school that has its own fleet to want a privately owned one on line.

Where is your flying school located? Is it by any chance at Moorabbin and advertising an impeccable safety record on its' website?

Okihara, what is your objective in this exercise?

Are you -

trying to save money during training?

trying to save money flying after you are licenced?

looking for the enjoyment of aircraft ownership?

looking for the flexibility of aircraft ownership v renting?

looking at an aircraft as an investment?

The best path for you will depend on how clear you are about what you want to achieve.

Would you buy a car before you'd learned to drive?

Probably no, unless money was no object.

Still young at heart! Aint that the secret :ok:

Pretty true, I'd reckon.

(Unless you inadvertently rent the really lethal heap that conspires to kill you.)

@LeadSled
Will do. It seems that flight time is also transferable so I might just get my PPL and then fly ROAz if that's where the fun is these days.
Over the last few days I've been knocking on a few doors and stalking a few people to get answers and estimates. I am actually a little less keen to buy to be honest.

It seems that budgeting for variable costs of engine overhaul, and for the 50 and 100 hourly maintenances will most probably at best equate any earnings made from the leaseback. Numbers I obtained are the following (corrections welcome):

Insurance: 5% of buy price per annum
Engine overhaul (2000 hours): A$ 45,000
50 hourly: A$ 3,000 and north of that if any significant repair is needed
100 hourly but at least once every 12 months: A$ 6,000 (not entirely sure if that can be done together with the 50 hourly. If you fly, say, 100 hours/year, do you still need another inspection?)
Parking: A$ 2,500 to A$ 3,500 yearly at an expensive airport like Moorabbin
Fuel: A$ 60/hour, at an approx. AVGAS price of A$ 2/L and 30 L/h consumption.

Current dual rates on a Warrior are in the A$ 360 - A$ 400 range, of which around A$ 100 goes to the instructor. The question now is whether the rest should first cover the costs with any potential profit to be split between the school and the owner, or if the school takes a cut first and leaves all costs at the owner's sole expense. I'll assume the worst case which is the former with a ratio of 85% (owner) – 15% (school). Obviously I also expect some fine printed CASA fees to ice that cake.

Assuming some flight time numbers, eg. 100 yearly of own flight time and perhaps some 5-6 hours weekly for the school, this adds up to roughly 350-400 hours yearly.
Additionally, let's take a Cessna 172 RG selling at A$ 90,000.

If you do the maths, in the scenario where all costs are the owner's expense the running costs for one year would be of A$ 87,500, and earnings from the school would amount to A$ 70,125 which results in a loss of A$ 16,875.
In the second case, the loss would be of only A$ 4,500, with no profit for the school (you may also argue, at no expense/investment either).

In conclusion, assuming that these figures are somewhat realistic, I'd expect a real life agreement to fall somewhere in the middle, that is, perhaps between breaking even and a loss of A$ 20,000.

Now that's including 100 hours of flight time. Therefore we're talking about a rate of up to A$ 200/hour for owning instead of A$ 300 for renting.

Any thoughts?

* I should add, I'm very grateful for the wealth of experience that all the users bring to that forum and for the interest taken in this thread.

I forgot to account for depreciation and to assume a duration. It might be reasonable to resell the aircraft for A$ 75,000 after two/three years which adds another A$ 15,000/2 or /3 to the overall yearly expenses.

Point taken. Drawing on your experience as an owner, could you please double check the numbers I obtained for the running costs of owning an aircraft?

Yes, yes, it's in YMMB. Not sure about the impeccable safety record though :/

Just to explicit things a little, I made small spreadsheet where the school FT is run from 0 to a few hundred hours. Unfortunately I cannot attach it because I'm still a new user.

In short, it shows that the flight time cost of a Warrior is A$ 202/h. That includes: 2000 hour engine overhaul (A$ 45k or A$ 22.5/h), 100 hourly (A$ 6k, or A$ 60/h) and 50 hourly (A$ 3k, or A$ 60/h) maintenances, and fuel at 30 L/h.
The fixed costs are: insurance at A$ 4,500 and airport parking at A$ 1,500.

It yields that the breakeven point would be around 500 hours of rental time, or roughly 10 hours per week, assuming two weeks off for maintenance.
Out of a solo rate of A$ 275, A$ 20 go back to the school for providing the opportunity. The remaining A$ 255 cover all costs, fixed and variable ones.
Own Ft is set at 100 and accounted for in the total costs.

With 10 hours of rental per week, going into this deal could potentially yield 100 hours of own flight time.

Any thoughts?

The 100 hourly costs for a Rotax powered Sling or Foxbat for example will be significantly less than you've quoted for the Warrior and the engine would be closer to $26k and you'd get around $6k for your used one. 100 hourlies would be closer to $1,000-$1,500 (especially if a new aircraft) but... the hire rates are less. 3.5-4 seats in a Warrior but they will rarely be filled in a training environment.

Your insurance estimate is a tad low too and the parking fee may be a tad low too although I'm a little out of touch with Moorabbin parking prices. If you leave it parked outside, you're going to need a paint job after 8-12 years? perhaps and that will cost $15-30k? but some would say cheaper than a hangar, but flying school aircraft aren't usually hangared, is too expensive and annoying to open the doors and drag out so it's left sitting in the high-sun all day anyway.

Perhaps go and visit one of the maintenance shops that service the Foxbats and Slings at YMMB and ask them how much for a service. If you can't find one, try Westernport aircraft maintenance at Tyabb as I know they do Foxbats and Bristells for Soar occasionally. Rotaxes should have 25 hourly oil changes if running on Avgas. I'm not sure what fuel Soar et al use.

You haven't mentioned what YOU want out of the aircraft other than as a business concern.

- How fast do you want to go?
- Where do you want to fly to?
- What type of runways will you be landing on?
- What fuel do they have there?
- How many passengers will you carry?
- Do you want to fly at night, on instruments or do any aerobatics?

Raaus versus GA? Moorabbin is full of sausage factories with no decent social atmosphere except maybe at Royal Vic Aero Club. You'll get the exact same social experience at Moorabbin regardless of your aircraft type or registration.

At the smaller airfields out of town, there are healthy social clubs of both raaus and GA so I wouldn't let that be a deciding factor.


Someone posted on here a few months back saying that they get $80 an hour for their older but in good nick 182 and he's paying for everything (except fuel of course).

So the overhaul would rather be around $26k but what do you mean with the last part of your sentence, ie. $6k for a used one?

Regarding hire rates: schools always quote SOLO and DUAL rates. It my understanding that dual means with an instructor, and solo is without one. What are you implying with ? The hire rates are lower for an UL because the running costs are. But that's irrespective of occupancy, or isn't it?

Yes, that's a good idea. Thanks for the pointers, I'll inquire about that.

Regarding what I'd like to get from the aircraft, I'd say primarily having a good, reasonably all-rounder aircraft to build flight time. I'd like to take it on some cross-country flights, possibly flying 2-3 hours a day over a ten day period to discover it from above (reminder: I'm not from Aus). I don't mean to sound like a whippersnapper but something like taking my girlfriend on a journey from Melbourne to Darwin with as many stops as required. My early guess is that this includes a mix of sealed, grass and dirt runways. A two-seater with a bit of luggage room will amply do at this stage. A fast plane is not entirely important at this stage. Night flying: yes, as I understand that this is common rating to do with the PPL. As for instruments and aerobatics, the answer is yes but not necessarily. I'm still not very familiar with the obvious choice of ratings but my feeling tells me that a CSU might be a priority.

I talked to a nice bloke who almost managed to win me over for a Foxbat, arguing that flying this is endless fun. They are popular with a few schools around too would flying for a few days in this be a little uncomfortable? It seems that newer UL aircraft are most cost-effective than Warriors and 172s.

As for RA-Aus: Very tempted to give it a shot but living in Melbourne, I haven't found any option other than Tyabb, Tooradin, Lilydale or Bacchus Marsh, all of which are quite a drive from CBD.