Never was, never will be.

For clarity, my post was talking about high inertia, low airspeed situations namely pulling off a crop and trying to turn air speed into height while at the same time trying to coax the light bar into cooperating. My ability might be a factor more so than anything else but I swear I can put the stick in a different place for my first few into wind turns than I can for a down wind turn without the aircraft telling me it's not happy. Would be interested to hear about others experiences with buffet or wing drop for into wind v down wind particularly in a 502.

I learnt my lesson about respecting the wind at low level the hard way but got away with my life, unfortunately the mallard occupants didn't. Stay safe all.

Vincent, your scenario is different.

You are describing a climbing turn.

Also, when you turn downwind in your racetrack, your groundspeed is greater, requiring you to pull harder to make your line.

This is what catches people.

May I recommend the "Handbook for Agricultural Pilots" by HR Quantick.

Perhaps hard to get hold of now.

There is a whole section on turns in wind. It is science.

I stand corrected. Does seem like a silly idea to me but I can save my selfies "around the wrong way" if I set the camera to do so. So the "video" may not be so...

Ah, but Trump isn't the President of Canada - Trudeau is!

DF.

Vincent, apart from your climbing turn bleeding off airspeed, and the natural tendency to want to pull the turn tighter as you get blown downwind, there's also the fact that the wind tends to increase as you get away from the ground. So with your climbing downwind turn, you quite possibly experienced an increasing tailwind, which is a genuine, nonmythical hazard when your margins are already thin.

Photos or it did not happen. :p

How can you get caught out by such 'massive' wind changes, Vincent, when the whole idea of going crop spraying at dawn, early evening or even night is to avoid the strong winds which are going to muck up your application? I might imagine that the torque from a relatively big prop could lead to favouring turning one way or the other (and that obviously becomes more significant as you slow down in the climb) but if the ball's in the middle and you don't exceed Clmax, then she's going to keep flying, downwind, 'upwind' (as someone previously wrote) or crosswind........especially in the zephyrs that are normal for a 502 doing its job.

The people here having nasty turns for the worst when turning downwind are confusing the alleged perils of that with the real effect, dependent on gross weight, of climbing or descending through a wind shear whether turning or not. A 'turn' within a moving mass of air will have no effect on KIAS.

This guy died because he ran out of airspeed, due to trying to mishandle the aircraft out of a situation caused by his poor planning. He flew through numerous holes in the cheese to get there, including the lack of supervision by the airshow management; after all it was only a planned circuit, landing, water taxi and takeoff/departure so what could possibly go wrong ?

New versions of the Apple mobile phone software seem to record and play correctly as you said but in the Android world some selfie video still seems to be reversed. From discussions on user forums it seems that it may even vary with the phone used.

And, in the context of this mishap, the selfie video seems to me to be mirrored in the mobile phone video posted earlier. I'm not absolutely sure but I don't think Ms. Cakrawati was in the left seat for some of the video as some people here surmised.

Also, the video clip from Instagram linked above appears to be a second generation video of the original playing on a mobile phone recorded by another phone. If you look closely, you can see the reflection of the second phone being held above the screen of the phone playing the video.

This guy died because he ran out of airspeed, due to trying to mishandle the aircraft out of a situation caused by his poor planning.

Nice Summary from The Wawa Zone.

Critical to the incident was that in the video, it appears that there were three seconds more or less when the pilot had warning of what was to come and did not recognise what was happening.

Everything being said about wind means little unfortunately as the aircraft stalled, incipient spin, then on entry to the water was in a fully developed spin.

While those ancient engines would have coughed up a furball or three with indignation at being pushed to full throttle, that would most likely have saved the day once the wings were levelled.

The point where the accident happened was the use of aileron to start a turn, the wing dropped and more aileron was used in my opinion. Aileron drag then dug the hole and the aircraft and pilot fell in.

Safety Modeling http://patientsafetyed.duhs.duke.edu...ss_cheese.html

A certain gentleman I know who used to run theory courses in the 80s tends to agree with you.

Although, he did comment that "the downwind myth has been around for a long time, probably as long as people have been flying".

I'd never heard of it before! :E

Education and planning, demonstration flights
 

I agree with LB's sentiments but would add that in an airshow or demonstration environment all participants could be expected to have had thorough briefings with those experienced personnel who would be in charge of proceedings. Those briefings would take into account all the various physical and and other risk factors that have been canvassed in this thread. This may well have taken place and no judgement should be given until all the facts are carefully considered.
Irrespective of this particular occurrence, unfortunately in this country the general pattern in a shrinking GA scene is a lack of experience coupled with diminished practice of procedures that can mitigate the risk of such destructive accidents. It has been said that CASA doesn't believe that our GA industry is sufficiently mature for more devolved responsibility and hence our extraordinary nth degree prescriptive rules. This patronising and government knows best attitude is proving to be counter productive.

So, X35B, how else do you initiate a turn?

This does not happen in real life. I have never EVER had a helicopter drop out of translational lift on me because of turning downwind, even in a slow orbit of a ground object.

The only danger here is the increase in groundspeed, so your reference point is now sliding past the window faster, which gives you a tendency to pull aft cyclic to slow down. You cause the drop through translation, not the wind.

There is still the same relative airflow over the rotor disc, upwind, downwind, crosswind, base.. the helicopter does not care.

Hi Dora,.....

First, you open the window and stick your hand out to,

(a) Signal your intent of turning, and,
(b) To create more drag on the side you wish to turn into of course....

:p

(Well, that's as good a response as I've read 'ere so far....Mind, you, I have absolutely no idea of how you do it in a pressurised aeroplane......)

Looking at the size of the display box, how did anyone think a 5700 MTOW kg aeroplane could fit into that area?

Yes, as an old but not bold, former helicopter pilot, I have to agree with this. But there are helicopter pilots that do perpetuate the myth.

The point where the accident happened was the use of aileron to start a turn, so far so good, the wing dropped, opps, and more aileron was used, bad voodoo ...

I trust that makes sense. :)

X35B

I think you mean

......and then opposite aileron was applied ....


Steve