TUNNABUM

Knowing Les, contrary to what you are implying, everything would have been done in the approved manner.

Who the F are you to suggest anything else.

As for the seating arrangements I was being facetious.
As far as the Marine Pilot not flying, how the F can you assure me of that when the official report hasn't come out. My god man it could have been on auto land for all you know and they were all in the back knocking down G and Ts.

I have looked your previous posts on other threads, you seem to want to find controversy in aircraft accidents.

BH

There is no doubt who was in the cockpit that day, period.

Forget the fact that Darren told me he would be flying it back with Les, forget the fact that Darren was an CASA PNG FOI and that he would not be in the front on a charter flight (first leg), forget the fact that when the bodies were recovered from the wreck evidence was taken regarding where they were found, but, it is pretty conclusive when the surviving Co-Pilot explains to the company what happened.


"Blinkered view" I don't think so. Just the facts as related by those who DO know.

Blackhand,

Now I don't know when you are being serious or "facetious" in what you are saying! If you are being serious about the marine pilot I suggest you do some research on what a marine pilot is - you may be suprised.

All I've basically said on this thread is to keep an open mind and wait for the outcome of the investigations. If that hits a raw nerve........?

TB

TB
One crew member survived and I sure he has passed on to the investigators just who was at the controls at the time of the accident. The ATC tapes and the CVR will also be able to indicate who may have been flying the aircraft as well at the time of the accident.

Why should it be public knowledge at this point in time ? Let the investigators make this public at the appropriate time. I just hope politics don't get in the way of this investigation,as is usually the case up here.

WW,

Thanks for the civil post.:ok:

I agree with everything you say.

For the record, I've never suggested "it" should be made public and I've never even named names. Everyone else seems to be doing that and stating they know who was sitting where. Then getting shirty with me when I say we should all just wait and see what the investigation tells us.:rolleyes:

TB

What is relevant to me is this. Was the accident aircraft equipped with operating thrust reverses?

WS "NO" TRs

That would be because we are a very close knit group in Mosbi and will not stand for you trying to cast aspersions on friends now deceased.

You really are an obtuse :mad:
BH

Blackhand I happen to agree with you. What Tuna seems incapable of realising is that his insistence that he wants to know now who was sitting where is extremely upsetting to those of us who knew one or more of those on board. So, Tuna, for those of us who are still feeling very raw and upset please give up this quest now and do as you have eventually come around to advocating - WAIT. All will eventually be revealed.
Muddergoose, thank you for the account, I wish I hadn't read that people were alive when it burst into flames and had been left with my fond hope that the rest had been killed on impact, but that is not your fault, I chose to read it. RIP Darren and the others.

OK - I wont post anymore on this thread (until the investigation is completed) as I seem to be upsetting some on here although I genuinely have absolutely no idea why.

How anyone can read my posts and conclude that I am insisting on knowing who sat where - is beyond me. Yet at least 2 of you seem to think I am.

Finally, I apologise to all I've upset.

TB

Deeply saddened by this tragedy. I too got my break from Les, RIP. The worst part in any accident to come to grips with is suffering :{. The account from the rescuer is awful news...:{

A pissup at the Brekky Creek Pub Sunday 1pm in memory of Les if anyone wants to come. I'll be there.

I'd love to be there 18-W but have only just now seen your post and it's too short notice for me. I've known Les Wright for a lot of years - at least as long as I've known Darren - so would really have liked to be there.

Les's service will be at 1pm Friday, Logan Village Cemetery.

18-W Thanks

Notimtams and cc, incase you didn't pick it up a couple of weeks ago, the 'un named' kiwi was not (Dr) RF. It was another employee of ISOS

Final report is completed according to last night's 6pm news report on EMTV in PNG. The ATSB web site says that the report is complete, however only the preliminary report is available for download.

Accident report here http://www.aic.gov.pg/pdf/P2-TAA%20F...812.221112.pdf

Very damming report and accurate to my knowledge. What the co-pilot had to endure during the last few minutes leading up to the accident was absolutely dreadful.

Lot of lesson to be learnt from this accident.

RIP old mate. It makes me angry to know that your fun loving life was taken from you, your loving family and you friends all too soon by the actions of a dinosaur in the cockpit. There are enough risks in what we do without such pilots making them worse. This accident which claimed your life and those of your fellow pax was entirely preventable.

I'm still sad and now I'm angry. :{

The AIC states that it is not its purpose to apportion blame. However, all but the most thick witted reading this report would conclude where the blame lay. No doubt any litigation that follows will pursue this angle.
While normally on the side of the PIC wherever there is any doubt, in this accident I can see no mitigating circumstances.
Standing by for incoming flack for speaking so ill of the deceased.

Mach E, how ya doing:ok:

I doubt too many could seriously throw rocks at you for taking that position. One that most rational thinking folk would take.

I guess the culture in one of his other operations may have been influenced that way as well. Certainly had a similar but worse outcome. Casual factors perhaps.

Very sad set of circumstances.:sad:

Damning report indeed. What concerns me is that the co-pilot at no time during the descent demanded a proper brief on what the approach was going to be, at what the go/no go points would be. There was a clear case of mustgettheritis and this was apparent pretty early on.

Scud running in a jet on a short grass/dirt/gravel runway that is clearly going to be wet and slippery as a butchers block, not long enough unless dry and into wind (nil tailwind), must have looked scary long before they were across the beach let alone the threshold. And at that point could have demanded go around and done so himself before it was too late.

If Wiz had not had his back turned to the cockpit (seating wise) or had been in the RHS it is a fair bet the approach would have been discontinued long before. 20/20 hindsight of course.

Simply amazing.............:sad:

Not long after this accident I went into Misima in a King Air. The strip was not fit for that aircraft; it was slippery and boggy. Cleaning all the mud out of the intakes and wheel wells was quite a task and I certainly would not go back there after rain unless the recommended work had been done to the runway meantime. Probably not....?
That a Citation with no reversers would have gone there on a regular basis is surprising, to put it mildly. Not that you would be able to use more than idle reverse with all that mud flying around, but any is better than none. And not that reversers would have made any difference to the outcome on this occasion, given the approach and landing.

What an awful report (content).

I had to read it a few times. Scud running in a jet, not visual on final at 400'.... for some reason I can hear my old bosses (ex Bushies) words on a route check about our RPT op into Cooktown some years back:

'what are you trying to achieve? Bodies from A to B. If you don't get in, is it a big deal? Take the fuel and come on home'.

The irony is they were shutdown in oz by the regulator and their PNG op took down (quite literally RIP) a CAA FOI in it's demise.

Very sad. Does their C208 operation still exist in PNG? I am out of the loop.

A good tale for CRM and a classic example of what not to do.

RIP Wiz

Very disheartening to read such a report, in fact it's the worst I have ever read and from my sources it's accurate truthful.

Now lets get to the meat in the sandwich, how the f$ck did CASA PNG allow Les to have anything to do with an aviation business in PNG given his previous track record in Australia? From the report the Chief Pilot at the time had absolutely no control over Les in the cockpit. The Chief Pilot was stuck in between a rock and a hard place, Les owned the jet and was a part owner in the company and the Chief Pilot was an employee, not an ideal situation to be in. Someone from CASA PNG or CASA Australia should have stepped in and got heavy handed before this disaster happened. Whilst we all need to take ownership of our responsibilities, we also must help one another out and in this case no one was prepared to help the company out to get this issue rectified, apart from maybe Wiz who was in the bloody back. I have no doubt that Wiz was fully aware of the situation with Les and the company and his ultimate goal was to provide CASA PNG with some positive operational oversight of the operation to get things on the right track.

Some very valid points WW. Wherever you have an AOC postholder who is also an owner or person with a major financial stake in the organisation you have the potential equivalent of a pedophile running a primary school.
Regulators need to ensure that owners/shareholders are distanced from operational decisions. Chief pilots and chief engineers must be given far more direct control over standards etc than is currently the case. This means that they should have a measure of direct budgetary control and absolute power to hire, fire and assign to duty. Although the CEO is also a postholder, it should be absolutely clear that his/her function is to provide the funds and the facilities for the technical people to properly discharge their responsibilities. A CEO in a small outfit could fly the line to keep abreast of operations, but allowing a CEO to wear the Chief Pilot hat or a Flight Standards hat in any company which operates more than one or two small aircraft is just asking for rules to be broken, short cuts to be taken.
Until this happens we will continue to see accidents caused by commercial pressures.

There really needs to be some kind of rule introduced to safeguard against possible company stakeholders having strong influences over operational matters.

A good effective SMS should be able to nip these issues in the butt before they get out of hand, however in the Transair case SMS wasn't a regulatory requirement at the time and the whole SMS philosophy would have been in it's infancy stage in PNG me thinks. Is SMS now a mandatory certification requirement for all AOC holders in PNG now?

It has been my unfortunate experience to find SMS in small companies is basically a lip service only.
Nice manuals are written with motherhood statements about how everyone from the CEO down to the cleaner is responsible for safety. A computerised tracking system is set up to report, investigate and acquit anything and everything that is seen as a potential risk.
Quarterly meetings are sometimes held and minutes taken so that the CASA auditors can get a warm, fuzzy feeling that all is sweetness and light.
But somehow only pissant stuff like the occasional duty time bust or coffee spill in the galley finds its way into the SMS.
If something really serious crops up, it is buried. In a former airline (now defunct) we had a major flight control issue with a jet transport aircraft that resulted in a classic rudder hardover event. It was certainly due to dodgy maintenance and exacerbated by the way in which test flights were conducted. The crew did all the right things in reporting it, but the so-called Safety & Security Manager in cahoots with the Chief Operating Officer and a cardboard cut-out non-flying Chief Pilot somehow buried it.
I could give other examples.
Exposed to this culture, pilots eventually treat internal company SMS with contempt.
CRM is similarly treated with contempt by some hardcore old-school types - as evidenced in the CVR pulled from the Misima crash. A pilot may do the course and maybe attempt to incorporate good CRM for a while - for as long as all is going well in their world. Then, when the pressure is on, they revert. CRM training does not necessarily modify one's core personality.

Interestingly enough, the CEO of Solomon Airlines is also a line captain on the A320.

Hullo?

By the "big one" are you referring to Lockhart River? If so, is the ex CASA guy the one still out there? The one who wrote all his independent ATO privileges before he left?

Justiceseeker,

I have been wondering where you have been hiding, and why it took so long for you to state the obvious.

Sad huh. :(

In the process of checking that I had the correct date I came across the last few posts. Most of you will be aware that I hold only a PPL not CPL but even with my limited knowledge I am horrified at what would appear to be mistakes in basic good practice and the apparent "I'm a god, do as I say" attitude. From the little information available I too feel sorry for the co-pilot and fear that his feeling that anything he said would be ignored is probably correct. What a pointless waste of human life. RIP Darren & Co.

Why? If he is as guilty as it would appear then it is perfectly understandable. Whilst not quite on the same scale, you don't hear anyone complaining about the bad press given to Hitler and his like.
Stallie - I agree.
One possible good thing I learned from the co-pilot's account was that there was no movement from the others in the aircraft when he managed to escape for which I thank God as it would appear that a previous report may have been incorrect.

Merged: Milne Bay Crash
 

3 years today.

It only seems like yesterday that I was being audited by one of the most approachable level headed FOI's that I had come across.
RIP Mate

Owners kept away from management????
 

Mach and Others,

With respect guys there are owners of aviation companies who do an excellent job with safety related matters resulting in well run safe organisations. Stop for one moment and think how a company might start and grow to be something big if it did not commence with a hands on owner?
No owner = No company = No jobs.

In my experience we have seen the guys who are shonks go right through their career doing the wrong thing and nothing ever happens, with reference to the regulator, until there is a serious accident or worse still a fatality. We, the industry, know who they are but if we say anything or pass information to CASA we are the worst type of people in the eyes of our peers and for that reason we keep our mouths shut in public. There are bad eggs in every industry and in my view the common thread here is that the regulator fails to do anything even though they are aware of the situation, e.g. Hempel. Why is that?

Groggy