ADS-B “IN” at Ballina?
 

Does anyone know if the airline aircraft that currently fly into Ballina have ADS-B “IN” installed?

I look forward to any information on this.

No for the A320

It sounds like a TCAS display, where you can see other traffic with altitude readout, so most RPT would have the traffic display portion in some amount these days. While ADSB-IN is not fitted to many airliners, TCAS II does the job currently, however no weather input or anything like that. Both systems require that the rogue aircraft also have transponders, however TCAS directly reads the other aircraft signal rather than get information from a ground transceiver.

Alas, old mate in his Jizzler 700 isn't required to have a transponder in G is he, 43?

And you'd rather be in G rather than E, any day, wouldn't you 43?

I spend a great deal of my day in class G, yes, never had a problem with it. I suppose if you lack situational awareness you might need someone else to look over your shoulder for you... In any case ADSB or TCAS don't care what airspace it's in, it does the same thing.

Coming up to 30 years of flying in class G or equivalent and still havn't hit anything.

Dick, why Ballina? What's the motive behind the question?

ADSB IN also directly reads other AC signal. No need for any ground transceiver.

Good to know, I'm not that familiar with ADSB In, the notes on it seem to imply it was all sent by ground stations. But that means it's a lot more useful for close calls.

Easy. Mandate transponders in MBZs below 10k. They're mandatory above 10k already.

Are MBZ's back again? I missed that memo, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Australian airspace camel has re-sprouted that hump along with - what is the recent new hump? - is it 'SAFIS'?

Airservices doesn't have ADS-B IN at Ballina. No circuit level coverage at all.

One of my American friends once told me that many GA pilots fly in E the much the same way some here do in G.... take off, clear the CTAF, turn the radio down on whatever frequency and listen to music on the ADF.....! No interest in ATC unless they ask for "flight following" where ATC will provide a service (separation, wx etc) on a workload available basis.

Gotta use those Bose™ headphones for something...

ADSB in is an option on Airbus selectable by the owner. I’ve seen it in A330’s etc and it seems to be of very good safety and operational value to enhance decision making both en route and in the terminal area.

Sadly most Airlines don’t option it. I know Hawaiian Airlines has it fitted.
It would be able to be retrofitted later pretty easily after spending $$$$$

But surely it would be mandated for all transport category passenger carrying aircraft in Australia. Surely the cost would pale into insignificance when compared to the reduced risks to the safety of air navigation.

Now try that line with the executive whose budget it comes out of and watch the reaction........

And that's why everything is always to expensive in airlines.

Sunny - I think Dick is interested because ATSB mention it in the Mangalore Investigation report.
I have flown in a Beaver from Ketchikan and watched ADS-B IN operating. The pilot used it to keep tabs on where the other Beavers were, and it was very useful for situational awareness. I'm not sure whether they used it as a separation tool, for instance they simply used 1500 ft in and 1000 ft out to maintain vertical separation in and out of Ketchikan even though they could see the other aircraft. As noted elsewhere in this thread it only identifies other ADS B equipped aircraft and there was no mandate for fitment, the company had made the investment themselves so their pilots could see each other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geoff Fairless (Post 11209407)

Sunny - I think Dick is interested because ATSB mention it in the Mangalore Investigation report

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Yes, ABS-B gets several mentions but no safety recommendation.

SouthEast Aviation obviously made an investment in safety to improve the situational awareness of their pilots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ACMS (Post 11208909)

ADSB in is an option on Airbus selectable by the owner.

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Why? There is a long list of very questionable decisions made by those charged with responsibility for selecting aircraft. QF A332/A333 comes to mind. Big lags between placing an order, delivery and then the operational use of the aircraft which could be 10-25 years.

Aircraft avionics are light years ahead of ATC systems.

TAAATS is more than 20 years old and never was optimised but rather managed through a series of workarounds. What % of suggested improvements were ever adopted - 5%? Why, because the bean counters didn't agree, because AsA needs to provide a dividend to the government, because the Industry didn't want to pay for enhancements?

Couldn't agree more but there needs to be a coherent vision for Australian Airspace management and technology. I understand that this is the responsibility of ASTRA

Still functioning?

Yes, but no safety recommendation.

The National Airspace System is reliant on individual, groups and organisations all making an informed decisions to contribute to safety. It shouldn't be down to the individual PIC/ATC.

How does an ADS-B receiver help to 'detect' old mate in his Jizzler 700 with no transponder at 1,000' in the vicinity of Ballina?

It doesn't. Options would be primary radar or Mark I eyeball from the Control Tower or via remote tower camera technology.

According to this:

https://business.gov.au/grants-and-p...XVN9xOXGzf47mQ

It appears that a Jab, fitted with, would be seen by the SFIS and other aircraft which had ADS-B In. The fighter pilot in me likes that idea: "just give me a velocity vector!".

Old mate can have a government subsidized Skyecho.

Why don't we have a "CTAF (R + XPDR + ADSB)" requirement anywhere RPT operates together with a requirement that ASA maintain ADSB reception and use it for separation?

WHy did I have to spend $3500 for a mode S transponder +$900 for an approvable GPS source + $700 for ADSB - IN ..... and yet I'm not even allowed in controlled airspace? AsA doesn't even monitor ADSB, let alone use it in anger?

To put it another way, I can see old mate in his Jizzler 700 with his skyecho. I can't see the RPT Airbus inbound because he doesnt transmit ADSB (?). The Airbus can't see me unless we get close enough for her TCAS to generate an RA because she doesnt have ADSB - in, the Airbus also can't see Old Mate and AsA can't see any of us because there is no radar down low and it isn't even looking at ADSB at all?


This is only going to end one way ...... a smoking hole and a Royal Commission.

I look forward to ATSB, CASA and Air Services justifying an RPT aircraft full of passengers lost as a consequence of a collision with an RAAus aircraft in the vicinity of Ballina, on the basis that it’s the first of an extraordinarily unlikely event. A bit like a one-in-one thousand year flood or a shark attack at a Sydney beach.

No air traffic control in the surrounding airspace.

No control tower for the aerodrome.

An RAAus aircraft that is:

- Not certified airworthy by CASA.

- Not piloted by a person licensed by CASA.

- Not piloted by a person medically certified by CASA.

- Not required to carry a serviceable transponder.

All ‘legal’ and ‘not unsafe’, according to CASA and ATSB. Air Services couldn’t care less. It all makes perfect sense. I’m sure the travelling public will understand and move on.

Sunfish:
WHy did I have to spend $3500 for a mode S transponder

Because TCAS will pick up your mode S. As far as avoiding heavy metal goes, that was the best investment you could have ever made.

To put it another way, I can see old mate in his Jizzler 700 with his skyecho. I can't see the RPT Airbus inbound because he doesnt transmit ADSB (?). The Airbus can't see me unless we get close enough for her TCAS to generate an RA because she doesnt have ADSB - in, the Airbus also can't see Old Mate and AsA can't see any of us because there is no radar down low and it isn't even looking at ADSB at all?

I may not be reading this right, but if you have ADS-B in, you'll see the A320 because we all have ADS-B out (IFR requirement since 2020(?) and you'll see the Jab if fitted with that gadget.

Likewise, if the A320 has ADS-B In, they will see other ADS-B Out aircraft.

Sunfish
You appear not to understand the rules
VFR aircraft only Mode S transponder if operating in Class E or C airspace
ADS-B is not required for VFR
Why can’t you enter controlled airspace?

Because he has NFI basically. Maybe it’s safer for us if he doesn’t fly in CTA.

The Airbus has probably had ADS-B OUT longer than you’ve had your IN Sunfish. Do keep up.

Yet Sunfish is free to fly in the airspace around Ballina, whether his aircraft is or is not fitted with any 'ADS anything'.

Thank you Capt. Bloggs, I was unaware of the ADSB out 2020 requirement for RPT. I lost a years flying thanks to Covid.

Vag, I understand and comply, however I don't understand why VFR aircraft (VH or RAA) without a transponder or radio(?) are permitted to operate in the vicinity of a CTAF with RPT operations.

RAA pilots are not approved to fly in CTA. An RAA aircraft may, provided it is equipped with a TSO'd radio and transponder and it is not precluded from flying over populous/ built up areas on its certificate and it is piloted by somone with a PPL and current BFR as well as an RAA certificate..

My normal practice as an amateur when inbound and an RPT aircraft calls inbound or departing is to defer to them and manoeuvre to keep well clear. A few orbits or slowing down until they are out of the way costs me nothing.

Yes, I work on the basis that i have NFI. I therefore plan and do revision.

ADSB is used extensively by ASA. If you are VFR chugging along the controller will see your ID (callsign) displayed on their ASD if you are in coverage. If you listen out on frequency you will hear them passing traffic on you to others, don't you wonder how they knew who you were without identifying yourself? It's because the ID is displayed whether you're squawking a discreet code OR 1200. ADSB out is worth every cent, ADSB in is worth even more, whatever way you are getting it, on your ipad, on your GPS unit or your PFD.

But Sunny, don't stare at the damn thing, eyes outside once you've gotten a warning. There are limitations on its use. Don't be a flog, there are too many flogs in CTAF's/MBA's/MBZ's.

TCAS only needs a transponder, it does not need ADS-B in the other aircraft, just mode A, C or S. It can't make resolutions on Mode A though as it has no altitude readout to relate to, but it will give a warning of traffic via a TA. The range for TCAS is more than adequate almost always displaying traffic out to 10nm or greater, the display is only for situational awareness, not separation.

With regard to Ballina one point that I've also thought about with the A320 incident described above, is why it's allowed that a pushback can proceed that will block an aircraft vacating the runway. It needs to be written into procedures that pushback can not commence while an arrival may be forced to hold on the runway. This sort of thing can really only be solved by positive ATC control. Or some sort of holding allowance needs to be alerted that aircraft may have to hold for 10/20/30 minutes while RPT in operation to ensure they have adequate fuel. There needs to be coordination if an RPT procedure is going to cause delays due to aircraft size and movement area limitations.

It sounds to me that there is more than just the airborne issues at play here, if CASA is allowing multiple RPT jets into a port that can't handle them to be moving around at the same time without closing the runway strip.

Or that scrooge council can fork out some dollars and build a proper airport with bigger parking areas and a parallel taxiway. It makes you wonder what the airport manager is doing when he sees or hears that that is going on. Or the CAGRO.

Comedy gold, Capn! Keep the laughs coming. Thanks.

Sunfish
ADS-B mandate has been in place for ALL IFR aircraft for more than 6years. Why did you go down that path?

Sunfish
You are also wrong about RAA aircraft & pilots in controlled airspace. CASA has issued approvals where the training has taken place in controlled airspace. I suggest that you ask.

Vag, yes I've seen the yellow perils at YMMB in the past. However its for training only and once the trainees graduate with their RAA certificate and cease training, then for them its "no entry".

All this seems to be a peculiarly Australian problem. The USA seems to not have any of the same hangups we have in Australia.

You were NOT forced to spend $5k on this and never was it mandated

Not much coverage below 3000ft https://www.airservicesaustralia.com...ds-b-coverage/. There are many locations with frequent high traffic levels that do not have low level ADSB coverage, such as Mangalore, Mildura etc. I find it interesting that there is no ADSB coverage in the Cairns area as they seem to rely on the radar there?? One would think that placing the required ground equipment at such locations would be in last years budget? Not designed for GA I guess as the $ are the priority, not safety?

You'd think that every location that has a piece of AsA kit would be an ADSB location, every NDB, every VOR, every radar site, every VHF transmitter site, co-located with an ADSB group station.

‘True, but at the time. (2013 - 2016) there was considerable debate on mandating some solution and it would have been impractical not to specify a mode S transponder as part of a new avionics installation. It is a requirement for class E anyway.

So quit your whinging. Making out that the world is against you as usual Sunfish.