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-   -   Mooney accident pilot refused a clearance at 6,500' (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/627036-mooney-accident-pilot-refused-clearance-6-500-a.html)

Jabberwocky82 10th Nov 2019 06:35

What is so hard about flying through Class C or D airspace? It may not have been an instant passage but it would no doubt have eventuated in to one. Or why could they not come in and land and have a breather and get their ducks lined up again?

Iíd hazard a guess (seems to be a lot of them being thrown around in here already), that they were not confident in dealing with the airspace. Whether that was training, exposure or currency related who knows but perhaps there lies the answer.

Is the airspace perfect? Probably not. But it is not an impossible space to pass through. They did not have to continue.

iron_jayeh 10th Nov 2019 06:47

So how far past CTA did the accident occur?

deja vu 10th Nov 2019 07:03


Originally Posted by Piston_Broke (Post 10615093)
Don't take Sunfish's view as representative of the real situation.

Last he stated he's had no interaction with CASA at all, and probably only very limited time even communicating with ATC, let alone had any strife with them.

And yes, he for one would benefit from a visit,

How helpful is this? Could do a course in basic courtesy yourself.

sunnySA 10th Nov 2019 07:31


Originally Posted by Dick Smith (Post 10613759)
Its clear that C requires a terminal radar system to operate correctly.
Thatís the reason for the Ministers directive.

I understood that the Minister was fearful that unless he "gave in" then he may not be re-elected in the 2004 election.

ausatc123 10th Nov 2019 21:07


Originally Posted by Dick Smith (Post 10615137)
Jabber. So why is the airspace upside down?

No other country that I know of has reversed airspace like this. Its clearly not the ATCs fault.

If the pilot had not been forced to a lower level he well may of continued the flight safely above the cloud.

Donít you understand this?

Dick... if the airspace was class E, then yes the VFR would be able to do whatever he wanted. But you'd also have VFR and IFR traffic mixing it in the middle of approachs that most of the time wouldn't be talking. Seperation not required, but if I told a jet he was in direct conflict with someone and cleared them for the approach he'd want to hold until clear. You now have a roadblock the other way around, if you have good radar coverage you might be able to tell them they are about to hit someone, or you might just hope TCAS picked them up or the VFR is keeping a good eye out.

I work airspace where I deny clearances to VFR all the time. Its just not possible to get aircraft in and out of my airport with VFR in certain spots. I tell them an expected delay, or they can go around. If I know the weather is marginal, I'd be confirming that is a safe course of action.. but I have absolutely no idea what conditions they are flying through unless they tell me... and I have weather cameras a few miles away and a tower giving me weather updates.

I'm not going to delay mutliple IFR planes for a VFR to have a jolly or cut a few minutes off their journey... UNLESS they REQUIRE to go through my airspace. As it has been pointed out in this thread, and many other threads... if that pilot says "I'm coming in anyway" or "I require it due weather"... then I make it work. I stop departures, I hold arrivals, and I put delays on the IFR guys to make sure everyone is safe.

"However, at 0724, the pilot advised the tower controller that he was operating in clear conditions at 4,100 ft AMSL" at this point my level of concern for a VFR is ZERO. If you tell me you are fine, I have no choice to believe you.

If at any point the pilot said they were concerned about staying visual or required a clearance they would have got it... don't you understand this? This sounds like it is about pilot education... they need to stop being scared about talking to us, or saying no... there are no repercussions to doing this... and its not worth your life to save the embarassment of talking to ATC.

iron_jayeh 11th Nov 2019 00:44

So does anyone know how far past the cta boundary the accident occurred?

havick 11th Nov 2019 01:03


Originally Posted by ausatc123 (Post 10615648)
Dick... if the airspace was class E, then yes the VFR would be able to do whatever he wanted. But you'd also have VFR and IFR traffic mixing it in the middle of approachs that most of the time wouldn't be talking. Seperation not required, but if I told a jet he was in direct conflict with someone and cleared them for the approach he'd want to hold until clear. You now have a roadblock the other way around, if you have good radar coverage you might be able to tell them they are about to hit someone, or you might just hope TCAS picked them up or the VFR is keeping a good eye out.

I work airspace where I deny clearances to VFR all the time. Its just not possible to get aircraft in and out of my airport with VFR in certain spots. I tell them an expected delay, or they can go around. If I know the weather is marginal, I'd be confirming that is a safe course of action.. but I have absolutely no idea what conditions they are flying through unless they tell me... and I have weather cameras a few miles away and a tower giving me weather updates.

I'm not going to delay mutliple IFR planes for a VFR to have a jolly or cut a few minutes off their journey... UNLESS they REQUIRE to go through my airspace. As it has been pointed out in this thread, and many other threads... if that pilot says "I'm coming in anyway" or "I require it due weather"... then I make it work. I stop departures, I hold arrivals, and I put delays on the IFR guys to make sure everyone is safe.

"However, at 0724, the pilot advised the tower controller that he was operating in clear conditions at 4,100 ft AMSL" at this point my level of concern for a VFR is ZERO. If you tell me you are fine, I have no choice to believe you.

If at any point the pilot said they were concerned about staying visual or required a clearance they would have got it... don't you understand this? This sounds like it is about pilot education... they need to stop being scared about talking to us, or saying no... there are no repercussions to doing this... and its not worth your life to save the embarassment of talking to ATC.

Class E vfr/IFR mix works pretty well in the USA in the busiest airspace and also quiet regional areas.

Just because youíre trained/conditioned to find VFR aircraft a hindrance by your own admission unless they require a clearance operationally, doesnít make it normal practice worldwide.

Iím not suggesting clearance/no clearance or the pilots hesitation had any bearing on this accident, simply highlighting your attitude to service delivery is not what is the norm worldwide.

Super Cecil 11th Nov 2019 01:09


Originally Posted by ausatc123 (Post 10615648)
If at any point the pilot said they were concerned about staying visual or required a clearance they would have got it... don't you understand this? This sounds like it is about pilot education... they need to stop being scared about talking to us, or saying no... there are no repercussions to doing this... and its not worth your life to save the embarassment of talking to ATC.

Previous experience with ATC has made many VFR pilots wary. I'm sure I've mentioned before about an experience into Tamworth, there were 4 aircraft inbound including a Singapore Lear and a Dash 8. I was inbound VFR and was held and had to change levels, after a barrage of instructions the controller said time to knock off and sort yourselves out. Previous to that it was dangerous to have 4 aircraft inbound, after the controller shut down the aircraft inbound sorted it out and you'll be surprised to know there were no accidents.
The experience I've found with Alice Springs, Tamworth, Coffs and Maroochydore, they make it hard for VFR traffic, even with no inbound IFR traffic. Most VFR pilots I talk to have the same experience, they try to avoid ATC even at their own peril it seems.

BigPapi 11th Nov 2019 01:12

Whenever a CTA clearance was simply for convenience (i.e. most direct route, trying to get a bit higher into C steps) I've found that more often than not ATC don't really want to deal with it.

The only time I have absolutely required a CTA clearance to reach the destination safely due weather (short of turning around and going back home) I found ATC to be incredibly willing and able to help, once I communicated the situation.

"Cleared direct to the field not above 4500, track as required"
​​​​​​

The name is Porter 11th Nov 2019 02:06


Dick... if the airspace was class E, then yes the VFR would be able to do whatever he wanted.
Yes, which probably would have been to track in VMC overhead the field then on to destination. That the aircraft descended in attempt to remain in VMC points to the probability that they would have remained in VMC if they'd had the option to do 'whatever he wanted'


But you'd also have VFR and IFR traffic mixing it in the middle of approachs that most of the time wouldn't be talking.
Let's say the VFR aircraft was operating in VMC, overhead the field, doing whatever he wanted in Class E airspace. The IFR aircraft needing an approach to get down through the cloud would be in VMC at the same levels as the VFR. They would continue the approach in VMC, look out the window until they spotted the aircraft, then continue into IMC on the approach if it was safe to do so.

They wouldn't need to talk, the IFR aircraft has you, the ATC, to tell them when they are clear of the aircraft. More often than not they have TCAS to help them and that's if they didn't spot the aircraft visually prior.


Seperation not required, but if I told a jet he was in direct conflict with someone and cleared them for the approach he'd want to hold until clear
Yes, and this occurs at times as well. You'd be surprised at how often an RPT aircraft will delay to allow a lighty to clear the airspace, and do it without a whinge, most of the time the crew of the RPT know what it's like to have 'been there' as a lighty.

Don't forget, this airspace works in the most saturated airspace in the world. Aluminium (and composite!) does not rain down from the skies as a consequence.

BUT and it's a big BUT, the airspace I talk of has surveillance, and plenty of it, and low level. Australia is a pathetic, backward, under resourced aviation backwater. That's unless of course you want to buy your wardrobe or a coffee or a gourmet pie from a city airport terminal. Then you'll find the best of the best. It's only when you get the opportunity to fly in another countries airspace system you say to yourself WTF??

flighthappens 11th Nov 2019 02:07


Originally Posted by ausatc123 (Post 10615648)
Dick... if the airspace was class E, then yes the VFR would be able to do whatever he wanted. But you'd also have VFR and IFR traffic mixing it in the middle of approachs that most of the time wouldn't be talking. Seperation not required, but if I told a jet he was in direct conflict with someone and cleared them for the approach he'd want to hold until clear. You now have a roadblock the other way around, if you have good radar coverage you might be able to tell them they are about to hit someone, or you might just hope TCAS picked them up or the VFR is keeping a good eye out.

I work airspace where I deny clearances to VFR all the time. Its just not possible to get aircraft in and out of my airport with VFR in certain spots. I tell them an expected delay, or they can go around. If I know the weather is marginal, I'd be confirming that is a safe course of action.. but I have absolutely no idea what conditions they are flying through unless they tell me... and I have weather cameras a few miles away and a tower giving me weather updates.

I'm not going to delay mutliple IFR planes for a VFR to have a jolly or cut a few minutes off their journey... UNLESS they REQUIRE to go through my airspace. As it has been pointed out in this thread, and many other threads... if that pilot says "I'm coming in anyway" or "I require it due weather"... then I make it work. I stop departures, I hold arrivals, and I put delays on the IFR guys to make sure everyone is safe.

"However, at 0724, the pilot advised the tower controller that he was operating in clear conditions at 4,100 ft AMSL" at this point my level of concern for a VFR is ZERO. If you tell me you are fine, I have no choice to believe you.

If at any point the pilot said they were concerned about staying visual or required a clearance they would have got it... don't you understand this? This sounds like it is about pilot education... they need to stop being scared about talking to us, or saying no... there are no repercussions to doing this... and its not worth your life to save the embarassment of talking to ATC.

what, you mean like plain English comms?

Get out out of here...

Squawk7700 11th Nov 2019 02:07


A good few points have been raised above.

Thinking more about this... CASA like to ram information down our throats to help us learn, however I donít seem to get much from AirServices. Am I missing something, like an email update Iím not subscribed to or are they just the big bad boogie-man that our instructors warn us about?


The name is Porter 11th Nov 2019 02:13

No, they are not the boogie men, they are 'educated' by their employer that they have the best airspace system in the world when they don't. Their employer will NOT spend money where it is required. They will spend it on their big customers, not on the little guy. Their big customers tell ASA where the money is to be spent.

Atlas Shrugged 11th Nov 2019 03:00


Dick... if the airspace was class E, then yes the VFR would be able to do whatever he wanted. But you'd also have VFR and IFR traffic mixing it in the middle of approachs that most of the time wouldn't be talking. Seperation not required, but if I told a jet he was in direct conflict with someone and cleared them for the approach he'd want to hold until clear. You now have a roadblock the other way around, if you have good radar coverage you might be able to tell them they are about to hit someone, or you might just hope TCAS picked them up or the VFR is keeping a good eye out.

I work airspace where I deny clearances to VFR all the time. Its just not possible to get aircraft in and out of my airport with VFR in certain spots. I tell them an expected delay, or they can go around. If I know the weather is marginal, I'd be confirming that is a safe course of action.. but I have absolutely no idea what conditions they are flying through unless they tell me... and I have weather cameras a few miles away and a tower giving me weather updates.

I'm not going to delay mutliple IFR planes for a VFR to have a jolly or cut a few minutes off their journey... UNLESS they REQUIRE to go through my airspace. As it has been pointed out in this thread, and many other threads... if that pilot says "I'm coming in anyway" or "I require it due weather"... then I make it work. I stop departures, I hold arrivals, and I put delays on the IFR guys to make sure everyone is safe.

"However, at 0724, the pilot advised the tower controller that he was operating in clear conditions at 4,100 ft AMSL" at this point my level of concern for a VFR is ZERO. If you tell me you are fine, I have no choice to believe you.

If at any point the pilot said they were concerned about staying visual or required a clearance they would have got it... don't you understand this? This sounds like it is about pilot education... they need to stop being scared about talking to us, or saying no... there are no repercussions to doing this... and its not worth your life to save the embarassment of talking to ATC.
ausatc123, without doubt, the most straight forward and logical reply to the otherwise usual gibberish... some people will just never get it. :ok:

100% correct.

havick 11th Nov 2019 03:14


Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged (Post 10615807)
ausatc123, without doubt, the most straight forward and logical reply to the otherwise usual gibberish... some people will just never get it. :ok:

100% correct.

Until you see how more user friendly other airspace systems are.

Atlas Shrugged 11th Nov 2019 03:34

I think I've seen most......., but that's not the point.

Cloudee 11th Nov 2019 03:35


Originally Posted by ausatc123 (Post 10615648)
I work airspace where I deny clearances to VFR all the time.

And that there sums up Airservices Australia “service” just perfectly. And some of you are applauding this. I shouldn’t have to explain my circumstances to suddenly find that a clearance is now available.

Lots of people being denied entry to airspace just because they are VFR. Airservices have no way of knowing whether theses are recreational pilots on a jolly, a doctor flying to a clinic, a farmer or a businessman trying to get to a meeting etc etc. if the “service” can’t handle the demand, expand the service. Oh wait, we’re in Australia, silly me.



ausatc123 11th Nov 2019 06:44


Originally Posted by Cloudee (Post 10615817)
And that there sums up Airservices Australia ďserviceĒ just perfectly. And some of you are applauding this. I shouldnít have to explain my circumstances to suddenly find that a clearance is now available

If a vfr aircraft comes through my airspace below 3000ft, they will drop off radar at certain points and I cannot seperate IFR aircraft inbound or outbound. No approaches for at least minutes 10-15 minutes... If I don't have Arrivals I give the clearance away. If I do I won't. Or should I let every big smasher through and hold 3 jets? How much delay would you feel happy with? A few hundred people for 15 minutes or the vfr takes the long way around four an extra 10 minutes of flight time?

kaz3g 11th Nov 2019 08:12


Originally Posted by Super Cecil (Post 10615774)
Previous experience with ATC has made many VFR pilots wary. I'm sure I've mentioned before about an experience into Tamworth, there were 4 aircraft inbound including a Singapore Lear and a Dash 8. I was inbound VFR and was held and had to change levels, after a barrage of instructions the controller said time to knock off and sort yourselves out. Previous to that it was dangerous to have 4 aircraft inbound, after the controller shut down the aircraft inbound sorted it out and you'll be surprised to know there were no accidents.
The experience I've found with Alice Springs, Tamworth, Coffs and Maroochydore, they make it hard for VFR traffic, even with no inbound IFR traffic. Most VFR pilots I talk to have the same experience, they try to avoid ATC even at their own peril it seems.

My experience with towers as a rather geriatric Auster driver has always been fine. I flew to Essendon a couple of weeks ago and phoned up before takeoff to see if I could get a direct via Kalkallo. Lovely chap suggested I plan via Doncaster because MELBOURNE was using east-west.

i called at Doncaster, no flight plan, and got a clearance straight away. Nice lady shepherded me to end of 08 because a C172 was close behind and the Auster is very slow with flaps deployed. I had explained Iím the same age as the aeroplane so she arranged for a safety vehicle to lead me back to the parking area :-)

Departing again in late afternoon and guy in the tower said some nice things about TW machines. I asked for a clearance north via KAO and he asked me how high I wanted. I said 1500 would be plenty and thatís what he cleared me to. He called again when I got to the boundary and he wished me a pleasant run home. Absolutely top class treatment all the way.

Iíve been into the Alice on a number of occasions, once with a dicky engine, and again they treated me royally. Ditto Moorabbin where they got me away Special VFR on one occasion when fog was hanging around. Theyíre human, helpful, and I find they respond positively to good manners.








Capn Bloggs 11th Nov 2019 09:04


And that there sums up Airservices Australia “service” just perfectly.
Cloudee, don't be ridiculous. Read the rest of what ausatc said.


Originally Posted by Cloudee
if the “service” can’t handle the demand, expand the service.

Fine. You can pay. Who gave you the "unfettered right to the freeway" without paying a cent for it? You want a full-blown 24/7 radar approach service for Coffs so you can go Direct and not down the coast as sugegsted? You pay. 20 years ago, a console on TAAATS cost $1m per year, IIRC.


Originally Posted by Porter
​​​​​​​Let's say the VFR aircraft was operating in VMC, overhead the field, doing whatever he wanted in Class E airspace. The IFR aircraft needing an approach to get down through the cloud would be in VMC at the same levels as the VFR. They would continue the approach in VMC, look out the window until they spotted the aircraft, then continue into IMC on the approach if it was safe to do so.

Absolute nonsense.


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