Yep. I seem to remember in a former lifetime we had E over D just like the USA and Canada!

And Broome and Karratha!

How ever did we end up with the giant roadblock airspace?

Now two unnecessary deaths!

So sad

that's a point Broome is e over d.
So do you think a d surveillance approach at coffs would be good?

Not a good way to allocate finite safety resources

The radar direction was not intended to have millions spent on a terminal radar facility.

It was to focus AsA to put the correct airspace above D.

what airspace did the minister Anderson want. We had e over d at the time. Didn't he say a radar service had to be put in. I just googled it and it seems he wanted radar services. Coffs has good radar coverage and probably good adsb as well so it seems ready to go?
do you fly much these days? I used to follow your adventures when I was a kid. Very inspirational and got me interested in flying. Could not afford choppers though.

Cloud isn’t created by legislation to provide a ‘service’ that is supposedly about ‘safety’. Air ‘services’ is.

A pilot can’t talk to cloud and request it do anything - at least not to any effect. Pilots can talk to Air ‘services’ and request clearances through gin-clear, empty airspace.

And clouds don’t behave in arbitrary and unpredictable ways that confuse and exasperate people with knowledge of meteorology. The differences in behaviour and outcomes in different parts of the Air ‘services’ system are manifest, confusing and exasperating, and denied only by those who’ve been on the Air ‘services’ KoolAide for way too long.

it is sad. i think his passenger was his son. Apart from the lack of clearance, do you think it was avoidable. He was not licenced to fly, so perhaps a road trip from Murwillumbah to Coffs would have been more appropriate until he was checked as competent for a renewal and he had the appropriate briefings and nav planning like a map or EFB.
would anyone here really fly an aircraft unlicensed with no met briefing, no nav gear and fly over high country in marginal weather? Would anyone take their child up without the legal authorisation to fly and without the required paperwork and nav gear. And you sir have the gall to focus on the airspace as the cause? If he used an EFB App for a couple of hundred bucks, he would have had terrain alerts like I have on my Ipad.
but if he stayed on the ground as he was legally bound to they would have been alive today.
If he had of survived, he would have been charged with illegal operation of an aircraft. If he had of advised ATC he required the clearance due wx, he would have saved himself and his poor son.
Do you acknowledge this pilot should have never started the engine that day due to the findings of ATSB stating multiple breaches of the legislation?

The prime cause of the accident was that the pilot was prevented from flying en route at 6500 above all the hills on his way to Taree.

If the NAS airspace had been in place he would not have been forced to descend into a mountain.

Having a current bi annual would not have allowed the pilot to remain at 6500’.

The ATSB were dishonest for not mentioning that the airspace had been reversed from E to C without any valid safety study and also failing to mention that the radar direction had not been complied with by AsA.
If the radar direction had been complied with it would have been most likely the aircraft would have remained at 6500’ above the mountains!

Its not called “ road block” airspace for no reason.

no one is ever forced to fly into a mountain. If you were flying illegally and ill prepared and you were denied a clearance, would you just descend into a mountain at Dorrigo or would you advise ATC you require a clearance and stay at 6500ft? Would you really fly down into the stratus that was obscuring the terrain as the report states or would call pan. Never in the history of ATC has a clearance been denied if the pilot advises they are in trouble. I was denied a clearance in C once over terrain and I advised I had a sick passenger due turbulence and requested climb due to the mountain waves. Slight delay of about 1 minute then clearance was provided. I had a flight plan in the system which expedited the clearance. If you need help you ask. If you don't then OCTA is safe... if you are licenced to fly and you have appropriate maps and nav gear for a cross country over the great dividing range and if you log on to NAIPS and check the forecast for low cloud on your route then a denial of a clearance will not kill you and your passengers.

Pinky, do you really think that compliance with legislation will save you? Even if this bloke had complied, he was still denied clearance.

Come on. If it was E airspace as per Government NAS policy its most likely we would not be discussing this now.

In the USA and Canada VFR aircraft are not forced to lower levels when flying en route over D airspace.

Why does it happen here? Do you know why the E over D was reversed?

from what I have read is that ATC have been trying to lower E and change to E over D but airlines and GA have said no. I googled the changes proposed and they are rejected by GA
didn't the regulator change e over d to c over d in the early 2000s.?
it's all very confusing.

hey mate. I do think that being legal to fly, planning and having a safe plan b goes a long way. He could have forced the clearance by calling pan.
he had not done an AFR for years as the report states and was not flying with any reference to charts. Had no situstional awareness if position, terrain and weather.. that is why we have regulations

All the minute detail about the pilot in the ATSB report was to take away any attention to the fact that the airspace had been reversed and that no other country had similar airspace.

How could they ever do an honest investigation without mentioning this?

If they mentioned that the airspace had been reversed they would have had to cover “ why”?

It could be a career limiting move to have covered this!

So much for honesty and openness in safety investigation.

I live in the US, so I'm just a lurker here. But take a look at KHWD (Hayward) in California. KHWD is Class D to 1500, then class C (for KOAK) to 2100, then class B (for KSFO) to 10000, then Class E above that (to 18000).

Thanks for the insight Marc :ok:

Welcome.

Ok. I will re phrase. No country in the world has an isolated country town class D airport with C above.

The airport being referred to is clearly under the steps of C airspace in the high traffic density area of San Francisco. Similar to Bankstown.

The C airspace mentioned clearly follows the ministers directive by having an approach radar control service.

No such thing at Coffs. It was clearly the prime reason the pilot was forced down to his and his sons death!

great point. What class of airspace should a radar approach service be at Coffs in your mind sir?

With the greatest of respect no pilot is forced to do anything, two words suffice, "unable" and "require", if your back is to the wall you can legally throw all the regulations out the window.

If AsA is going to spend the money to install an approach radar control service at Coffs Harbour the allocated airspace would be class C.

However this would clearly be a gross mis allocation of finite safety resources.

Coffs should be D with E above as per the accepted NAS policy. Just like Karatha and Broome.

The pilot would have kept flying en route at 6500’ above the clouds and mountains. It was only a line and a letter C on a map that resulted in him being forced to descend by ATC into the bad wx and a mountain.

He must have had some form of a chart as he knew where to call for a clearance!

spot on. The safety of all souls rests with the PIC and that includes ignoring ATC clearance or no clearance to ensure you don't fly into terrain.