Good question. I know that Angel Flight (AF) made sub #71 to the Senate committee (ctte) to prove CASA lied about their safety case (as shown in the snips). AF were interviewed by the Senators. I presume AF won their court case against CASA.

So if by "stopped fighting CASA in court" you mean "AF won" and went back to business as usual, then I would agree with you.

Do you have an alternative version of the story? I am only going off what I have read so far in the Senate ctte submissions page.

You presume wrongly. AF didn’t win their court case against CASA (or, more accurately, their challenge to the validity of the CSF instrument).

It’s about the safety of air navigation. And whatever someone in CASA wakes up each day and decides is in the interests of the safety of air navigation, is in the interests of the safety of air navigation.

Thanks LB, I shall need to read the CSF case in full! :8 Nothing appears on AustLII so it does not appear to have gone ahead, as you wrote.

CASA may draft the laws but the courts shall decide how they are applied.

AF showed that CASA did not rely on any valid safety case when drafting the CSF instrument. I suppose the next step is for the Senate to decide whether to keep the CSF rules in place.

PS. Taken from the Angel Flight sub #71.

Now I get it: You’re a comedian!Champagne comedy!

Of course the case didn’t go ahead. Angel Flight’s submission to the Senate Committee refers to a Federal Court decision that didn’t happen. The Federal Court is in on the joke, too, by publishing a fake judgment cited as Angel Flight Australia v Civil Aviation Safety Authority [2021] FCA 469.
Where have I heard that before? Of course: It was in a post just before yours:And then the punch line:Thanks for the belly laugh!

I have to hand it to you: You got me a beauty!

When and where’s your court appearance? I’m coming! It’ll be a laugh a minute.

Thanks for the link to the AF + CASA FCA judgement. I have extracted some quotes above from the FCA judgement, and the Angel Flight Sub #71 Attachment 1.

I can see what you mean now, CASA can speculate that A leads to B - and apparently there is no requirement for science or data to back it up.

I do not wish to repeat my information in Glen's thread, since it is already listed in my thread at the post here.

By the way I think Glen's case is quite different to Angel Flight (AF). With AF they dragged CASA to court to ask if the new CSF instrument was fair. With Glen's case, it was CASA who took actions against him, with CASA claiming they "did not know about" the arrangements proposed. Glen's letter to the Minister outlined this, by my understanding.

Dear Glen, If you need more funding, you can be sure I will be there.

But Mate, I can never use the Gofundme platform ever again. Can you consider another if needed?

Hope you are well. As for your family, I hope they love you more for your stand.

Regards Bendy.

Bendy
 

Good to have you on the journey after 3 years. Whilst i dont anticipate anymore crowd funding at this stage, Im interested on your views on GoFundMe. My own personal experience with them was very good, have you got some feedback. Cheers. Glen

No response from the Office of Barnaby Joyce
 

In Post 1912, i sent correspondence to the Office of Barnaby Joyce. It remained not acknowledged or responded to. That correspondence was sent on 01/02/22.

I sent follow up correspondence on 07/02/22 and again that was not acknowledged or responded to.

I have resent that correspondence again this morning.

Failing a response to that, my intention is to seek the assistance of Ms Gladys Liu, the member for Chisholm (my local electorate and Australia's most marginal seat), as well as Ms Helen Haines the Independent for the Victorian Seat of Indi and an advocate for an anti corruption body.

Cheers. Glen

Try registered post. Has to be signed to confirm delivery. I know it is last centruies technoogy but it does give you a confirmed delivery.

Non acknowledgement of mail
 

Poor office management, an acknowledgment should be given to every serious item of correspondence.
Parcel post also a method which provides tracking information.
I hope Glen’s MP Gladys Liu takes up his case.

Perhaps Glen should ‘text’ Mr Joyce. We all know that Tomato Head likes to send and receive text messages.

Correspondence to Gladys Liu from Sandy Reith
 

Thankyou Sandy for taking the time to send the following correspondence to my local Member of Parliament, Gladys Liu, Noting coincidentally that my electorate is the most marginal in Australia, and an electorate that i have resided in my entire life. My matter is one that clearly suggests a need for a body to investigate corruption in Government, something that the Liberals seem keen to avoid.

Perhaps i could reach out to Angel Flight, AOPA and affected industry participants and request an industry meeting with Ms. Gladys Lius office. I will put some thought into it. In the interim here is the letter to Gladys Liu. Thankyou again Sandy, and by the way I did meet you just once. About 25 years ago, at Philip Island one night when i came into pay a landing fee at Philip Island. It was one of my very first instructional flights as a Grade Three Instructor.

Dear Ms Liu,



I believe you have an opportunity to gain popularity by supporting the General Aviation (GA) community and assist government to reverse the bureaucratic strangling of of what should be a vibrant and growing GA industry.



You might be surprised at the numbers of people and their families and friends who have come across the very bad reputation of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) within the GA community including GA businesses and employees.



CASA is now a 34 year old independent monopoly inventor of ever more numerous permissions to which are attached swingeing fees. Its ever increasing and changing mountain of rules, inappropriately migrated to the criminal code, are so numerous that there are numbers of them that are contradictory and solid interpretations are impossible.



I’m making an appeal to you to give stronger and public support to your constituent Glen Buckley on the basis that his case is an example of CASA’s completely unjustifiable bureaucratic overkill, quite apart from the wrecking of Glen’s aviation businesses.



I have never met Glen and he has not asked for my support or intervention.



Because I am Peter Reith’s brother, have been involved in politics since the 1960s, plus having made a career out of General Aviation, I am uniquely placed to see the benefits to be gained by you and the Liberal Party by being vocal on this issue.



Barnaby Joyce has recently issued a new Statement of Expectations (not Directions), to the Board of CASA. Here is the basic problem, in this statement the Minister claims, rightly, that he and Parliament are responsible but that CASA is independent.



This is a straight up contradiction and the results are manifest across the 34 years of CASA’s operations. The losses of hundreds of flying schools, charter operators and maintenance facilities throughout Australia for no good reason.



This illustrates that you can’t have the Westminster system debased by hiving off responsibility to an unelected body and expecting the best governance with efficiency and low costs to business.



Should you take up this opportunity and declare for aviation to be governed through a regular Department of Government, and support Glen Buckley, you will gain much kudos. Glen being the underdog fighting an implacable Canberra bureaucracy, you will win much respect in your electorate, and right around Australia for the Liberal Party.



Sometimes you must take a stand to win, if I can help any further please be in touch, for example I can refer you to a number of respected GA people who will give you confidence to pursue this issue.



Kind Regards,



Sandy Reith

Corruption.
 

Like many words that describe the worst failings of us humans ‘corruption’ has many shades. In Glen’s case he has obvious reasons to make claim.

How to combat corruption in government is a vexed question but firstly I think it rational to go back to first principles and that is that our elected representatives must be accountable and responsible. We must expect this and foster this concept by, say, joining a political party, making frequent representations to our various MPs and helping to create that kind of political interest that is lacking in day to day life.

Henry Bolte was one of Victoria’s longest serving and most successful Premiers. I was at a meeting where the concept of an Ombudsman was presented and enthusiastically promoted. I thought what a great idea. Henry Bolte said this is a bad idea because this will cut across the work of MPs.

Now I see clearly he was right.

Yet another independent body or Commissioner to swell the bloated ranks of the Public Sector (was once Public Service) will not enhance the behaviour of government. We should pay our MPs more and fund their offices for extra duties that we should expect.

Question Time in Parliament should be returned to its true meaning and importance instead of its current party political theatre.

The courts should be more available, accessible and at lower cost. The police could be better organised.

We can’t do better than try to improve our democracy and that does not mean handing off functions to unelected people, see CASA. In my not so humble opinion.

Re above post from SR. I suppose (regrettably for my stress levels) my contribution will be showing in Katoomba local court that CASA do not understand high school physics. Submission #72 to the current Senate ctte refers.

PS. GB try sending in hard copy with words "PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL" - this stops any staff opening the letter - you might be surprised. In my case, I called to confirm the email address, emailed it, then another call to ensure my email arrived. They got the message and emailed me back an acknowledgement.

Why not start a signed petition?

Someone has already started a petition for a Royal Commission into CASA. Is that what you mean?

Do you mean yourself? If so, no one will take it seriously.

Petition?
 

I had one back in 2016 that elicited 3000 signatures and some hundreds of comments, many of which have very detailed accounts of mistreatment and unnecessary bureaucratic intransigence etc.

We’ve had umpteen inquiries, what we need now is a very loud crying out, media if possible, for a Department of Aviation with a Minister in charge.
Support AOPA and ring write contact media and your MPs.

ASRR Submission #107 by Pro Aviation (Phelan, 2014) says it all.

And it would seem that CASA has only gotten worse... :ugh:

PS. ASRR Submission #192 is probably the best one-pager summary I have seen from both the current Senate review (2020-2022+) and the older ASRR review (2014) aka Forsyth review. I happened to only just read it now.

Susan's pissed....

Susan McDonald isn’t happy but forgets that Parliament is responsible
 

Another shameful exhibition of the amateurish running of CASA by a CEO who is completely out of her depth. One could be forgiven for believing that after Ms Spence’s last appearance at McDonald’s Senate RRAT hearing (not long ago, see video elsewhere) she might have been prepared.
But no we are paying her $650,000 pa and her senior managers c. $500,000+ and they can’t answer questions about any of the hot issues around GA. The lack of respect to the Senators, let alone to us criminals who fly planes is palpable.

Little will change until and unless it’s recognised that there are two fundamental contradictions stemming from the Act.

1/. As Barnaby J. says he and Parliament are responsible and CASA is independent.

2/. The Act requires that ‘safety’ is the highest consideration, but that costs should be weighed.

By giving CASA the power to interpret these irreconcilable elements, CASA, salary factory and make work specialist, will always default to the human nature position of looking after its own interests.

The model of governance is wrong, the democratic element of the Westminster system demands that the administration of government is overseen by elected officials, in this case a Minister responsible for a regular Department of Government. An independent corporate monopoly, provider of ever more permissions to which are attached swingeing fees, will never change into a group of wonderful individuals bent on providing the least impediment to free enterprise aviation at the lowest cost.
Rather everything can be directed to safety which trumps a healthy GA industry. Ring write contact media and your MPs and State Senators.

A bit of Theatre me thinks.

When it comes to seating positions, Dr Aleck unknowingly or knowingly positioned himself in a close up frontal camera blind spot.

You are not the only one who picked up on the seating position.

What I've picked up on, twice now, is how poorly Pip Spence has been briefed before these sessions and how stone faced CASA senior management remained as she dug herself deeper and deeper into a hole each time in the face of what were perfectly legitimate questions from the honorable Senators. Why, one might almost begin to think they wanted her to fail.

"Normal" behaviour of senior executives preparing their boss for a grilling by Senators is to write up a stack of one page briefs on anything likely to be asked with the recommendation (every brief has to have a recommendation); "That you note this matter". The briefs for the most likely to be asked questions go into the bosses briefing pack (to which Pip Spence referred) and the rest get carried in by the minions just in case so they can be handed to the boss if needed.

The Senators and senior mandarins, by the way, would regard Pip Spences abysmal performance not only as her failure, but the failure of her entire management team to prepare her properly and that would be what is worrying them the most; not Spence but Aleck and the others.

I am also beginning to wonder if Spences problems might be caused by a male dominated misogynistic corporate culture but surely not! This is 2022.

I may have interpreted this incorrectly, under a line of questioning that Ms Spence could not answer, she did say someone might be able to rush in and provide the answer (my words,) as in someone in her immeadiate vicinity. But alas, silence.

Does Ms Spence realise that Teflon John, the one just out of camera view except for the occasional glimpse of his shoe, is throwing her under the bus? Not having any briefs prepared or available, not prepared to comment on anything, leaving her to solely take the blows?

Blueyonda “I may have interpreted this incorrectly, under a line of questioning that Ms Spence could not answer, she did say someone might be able to rush in and provide the answer (my words,) as in someone in her immeadiate vicinity. But alas, silence.”

I think your interpretation quite correct, more than that it’s common practice for the underlings to pass up helpful briefing papers or chime in with an offer of assistance without being asked.

Twice now we’ve been witness to the same extraordinary spectacle of the highly paid CEO of CASA coming to a public Senate hearing not being prepared. It truly beggars belief, imagine the US, NZ UK or Canadians looking at this disgraceful display of incompetence. And I’m sure they’d be thinking, as I do, your Parliament set up this corporate in the attempt to relinquish responsibility so what do you expect?

The fact that the CEO Ms Spence has failed to learn about the most pressing issues, and shies from responsibility by citing ‘that was before my time’ is exemplified by her treatment of Glen Buckley.

Instead of ascertaining the facts from her $500,000 pa Managers about Glen’s unjustifiable treatment and then making her own judgment Ms. Spence handballs to the Ombudsman, again.

Perfectly predictable; because this is how Government Industries works when Parliament reneges on its responsibility.

The aversion by Parliament, and many Members (2009 Albo rids his Ministry of the ATSB), to the responsibility conferred by our Constitution and the Westminster tradition is manifest in the arrogance of senior Public Sector managers. The current Estimates is such a good example and not just about CASA. The head of ASIO upbraids a Senator by accusing her of making an inappropriate question.

This whole trajectory, give all the tricky bits to ‘independent’ Ombudsman offices, Commissioners, ICACs and Commonwealth corporations like CASA, ATSB, ASA, Infrastructure Australia even Meat Australia, and many others, has become a major impediment to good governance and free enterprise.

The shift in power, the unseen revolving doors PS employment cross pollination and the many $billions in fat salaries and great working conditions are at stake and driving the body politic.

Finally, it is we the voters who elect representatives. If we sit back, don’t engage with them, don’t go to meetings, don’t write critiques, don’t talk to media but only throw brickbats and epithets then who is to blame?

Ms Spence and the de facto CEO
 

Perhaps Ms. Spence is too nice a person and would probably have to have sacked a couple of her Managers shortly after taking up the CEO position on the 17th May last year.

For example had she demanded some answers to the Glen Buckley travesty she would have seen the ugly truth and sacked those responsible. This would have changed the scene completely, but it didn’t happen. Just as well, not for Glen, but because one or two pluses on the board for CASA would have only perpetuated this wrong model of governance.

In other words reducing the force of argument for the only solution for the good governance of Australia’s aviation industry; a Minister in charge of an Aviation Department. Video of session link :-

Sandy,
The time frame I refer to earlier is the 19’50” mark. Dr Aleck would have known. He would have been present.

The 16’30” mark contains an “ouch!” moment at 16’40” mark.

I think Sunfish is right. There is a “misogynistic corporate culture” within CASA management. I feel sorry for Miss Spence. A lamb to the slaughter.

Sunny,
Politicians and Miniscules come and go and we go on forever. CAsA have proved that time and time again.

Hark ye back to the COOP / Classification Of Operations Policy of 1997 was it? The Minister and the Bored ADOPTED this Policy that with FAR type regs and many new freedoms. Looked like a brave new world.

Over the following months CAsA published change lists etc etc….BUT..the Miniister soon was no longer, the gutless Bored had changes probably, and the Iron Ring knows how to work out all

THEIR way… and all the good things which would have made such a difference to GA ops turned to dust and over the next couple of years of all that COOP proposal was no more. Gone like a puff of wind that never was.

And the rest is a most costly, disgusting, nauseating history.
And I concur . Until Non Aviation House is a heap of smoking rubble , nothing will change.

Back then, CO OP and then the subsidence back to Ops normal.
 

Aroa makes the point, the model must change otherwise the best efforts and real improvements will not last.

Is the real driver found in CASA’s remuneration tables?

How sorry for some CASA embarrassment in hearings compared to Glen Buckley losing his home, his businesses and having to terminate all his employees?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2e1216237b.png
It looks like Ms. Spence’s base salary was more than $100,000 for 6 weeks, presuming financial year ending June 30 ‘21 from her start date of 17 May. My calculator says this could be $900,000pa? Wonder if that’s right?

Mr. Carmody’s base was around $650,000.

We might ask what value from the Board too? They are now supposed to give us a communique.
Don’t expect much more than a public relations handout. We should have copies of their minutes, what have they to hide? This is supposed to be a public body.

The salary factory, or, all in together this fine weather.
 

Reading the fine print, very fine print, it makes the point that there’s a tribunal that recommends the salary of the CEO. Can you just imagine some of the jolly parties they have around Can’tberra where all the upper echelon types meet and have fun? I’m told by those who have lived and worked in our artificial capital that the PS social structure is a very stratified.

But back to the infamous Estimates, for the masochists here is Hansard of these latest procedures. https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo...sCount=Default

No, she's been around those circles for quite some time. For her to think it will be different for her is naive.

Having said that, she should also know that the lot of it, CASA, ASA etc is a mysogynistic pig show. It's all documented. Margaret Staib copped the same sort of rubbish in the senate that Pip Spence is.

The thing about the senate RRAT that two dogs posted that got to me was the rambling, nonsensical rubbish that both she and the git with the American accent spoke about the Blackhawk. And the rubbish about the poor beggar (sarcasm) flying without the medical. She could have easily shut that down, you fly without a medical, even if it is only 'cost sharing' you're a clown. No correspondence entered into. For her to not know that the medical is what keeps your perpetual licence valid is extremely poor form.

She is being very poorly advised and undermined and will suffer the same fate as those before her who said 'f*** this, I'm out of this pigstye' I'm just wondering why the pack of a-holes behind her were there if they weren't going to advise and help her?

An interesting contrast to the rambling and bull**** was the fellow that answered the avmed questions. Short, sharp and on point.

Piss poor work on both sides in certain areas, I would say. The question from Sen. Patrick about the capabilities of rescue helicopters was so vague as to be ridiculous, and the answer from Monahan was equally vague - they were talking about something they both clearly had little grasp of, so it was farcical. Patrick quoted the Bell 412 as a single engine machine - wrong in any case, and then waffled on without actually asking anything specific. His question boiled down to 'was there stuff some rescue helicopter or other could do before that it couldn't do now, or the other way round?' and Monahan came back with a similarly convoluted waffle. This is bull****. If neither the politicians nor CASA can get a list of questions and answers prepared in advance, or have a whole raft of so-called 'experts' from both sides who can actually pin issues down, then there's absolutely no point to having a hearing.

CASA can only be got at effectively by picking specific issues one by one, following them tenaciously until the buck is either shown to stop or be swept under the carpet, and by who. After a while a clear picture of who are the absolute rotten apples will emerge. This vague waffly crap with no end in sight can and should be approached with far more tenacity and specificity by the politicians, and Pip Spence must follow these issues up in the same way, and others proactively.

Grandstanding, shows of anger, vague references to cases like those shown here just waste time and money. If Senator McDonald actually wants to get to the bottom of real problems, she needs to make a clear plan, get staff on to particular matters and follow leads to their conclusions. I hope she does.

Watching this round of senate estimates was in my opinion, perversely hilarious! Nothing has changed at CASA in decades and nothing will change into the future as long as CASA operates under its own steam. This was another accurate public display of what CASA truly is - a dysfunctional and failed department. Aleck is the bridesmaid who didn’t catch the bouquet. Overlooked as DAS on several occasions has made the little bearded weasel somewhat bitter, twisted and revengeful. In all reality, his allowing Pip to be thrown under the bus, again, is an embarrassment to CASA, it’s employees, it’s DAS and the Minister. How he hasn’t been walked out the building for pulling these stunts is beyond me. Either everyone above him is profoundly stupid, or he has Polaroids of politicians with goats. Aleck has crushed another DAS, and this one in record time. What an absolute **** show.

Ms Spence’s performances in front of the Committee remind me of the cringe-worthy performances of Ms Staib (ex CEO of Air Services) in front of the same Committee. Lowlights include 20 October 2014 (fast-forward to 22:05) and 28 November 2014.

But there the similarities end. Ms Staib came from a background of mutual trust and teamwork, and wasn’t used to being surrounded by rats. Once she realised what she’d gotten herself into, she bailed out. Ms Spence, on the other hand (and as tossbag has observed), is very used to the environment.

AOTW: Alas, it’s mostly pantomime. CASA doesn’t care how much these Senators huff and puff. No amount of huffing and puffing will blow the CASA house down.

The monster is a creation of the Parliament through legislation either made by the Parliament or not disallowed by the Parliament. Unless and until the Parliament changes that legislation, the monster will continue on its merry way. CASA knows that the major parties are too scared to make the religion of the safety of air navigation an issue to differentiate them in the minds of voters. As the shadow Minister (laughably) said: “There’s no margin of error in aviation.”

And no one should be surprised at the ‘safety’ standard being writ large in the example of the fire-fighting aircraft. CASA doesn’t know the design standard and ICA for e.g. Blackhawk helicopters, therefore CASA isn’t ‘satisfied’ and therefore CASA will sit with its arms folded until someone (at their expense) ‘satisfies’ CASA. Doesn’t matter how many towns and fire fighters are immolated on the ground in the interim. That’s someone else’s problem.

Sadly true, LB. As the senators eventually got around to highlighting, the simple question of why a properly maintained aircraft can drop water, carry cargo and operate with 'task specialists' all day long but not carry firefighters from A to B should be easily answered, but is instead somehow incredibly tricky for CASA to quickly and effectively address, according to them.

This is not just about restricted category of airworthiness, it's bound up in the frankly stupid delineation between passenger transport and aerial work under Parts 133 and 138 respectively. Somehow a properly trained, briefed and current person who could legally be on board spotting fires suddenly turns into the equivalent of a first-time passenger who just walked in off the street for a scenic flight. We have the ridiculous situation of changing between rule sets not only on the same day, but the same flight sometimes for many helicopter operations, which can also make you jump between flight and duty appendices ... suddenly you had to have had a day off yesterday because now you're carrying passengers instead of task specialists!

This is the sort of rubbish the senators, via their staff if necessary, should be researching and then bringing to bear in these hearings, or require CASA to answer in detail by other means. When it comes down to it, just trying to read the CASRs and apply them to an actual operator's situation (what was formerly a charter / aerial work helicopter operation would be a good start point) quickly exposes many ambiguities and contradictions, which the reg writers have clearly not even considered. Just try and get a straight answer on a curly question out of CASA's guidance portal (supposedly the 'single source of truth') and you'll see what I mean. Same vagueness, different name.

There are a thousand other 'frankly stupid' examples, AOTW.

The practical standard these days is actually 'clear and concise': Whatever someone in CASA wakes up each day and reckons it is. That's what happened to Glen Buckley.

Same answer to everything..... "I will take that on notice"

How about the senators say, your pay is frozen from today until you come back to us with properly researched answers and then you can get paid again. Make it flow down from the top to the bottom. Make them realise what it is like to be a small repair person who effectively has their income frozen without notification directly from the CASA.

Turn everything around and make CASA people jump through the hoops that these small maintainers also have to comply with.

As for sending thugs out to enforce different things and coerce witnesses is a real mess. Follow the foodchain back to whoever made that decision or gave that direction and put them on unemployment.

Working for CASA seems to me that you can be the biggest schoolyard bully who can never get in trouble for anything because you are hiding behind an almost impenetrable wall of secrecy, but I will take that on notice........ that is the lamest answer to anything

The senators don't have that power.

CASA hides behind the almost impenetrable wall called 'the mystique of aviation'. When the 'Authority' puts the phrase "safety of air navigation" in a sentence, whatever 'frankly stupid' assertion is made in the sentence becomes - as if by magic - an objective truth.

Perhaps the Senators could advise Spence in writing, at 16:59 pm on a Friday that they would like answers by C.O.B the following Monday? CASA understand that process very well.